starting out

smoke meat
smoke meat Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
I am new to solar and would like to build a system. I have read been reading post for a few weeks and seen people buying parts without doing anything. I would like where I need to start before buying anything. I would like build a system on paper before buying anything. On paper can see what is needed before buying anything. Any help would great full.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: starting out

    Welcome to the forum.

    That's a very sensible approach: plan before you buy!

    In order to plan you have to first have some idea what you want the solar power for. There's quite a number of different system types depending on the application. None of it is cheap, and some of it is downright impractical.

    So ... what do you want to achieve?
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  • smoke meat
    smoke meat Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #3
    Re: starting out

    going off grid in a few year. running lights, appliances. water well, I also have a 5 hp 240 v motor that I will have to run, not that often. I did some numbers all ready it may take a great deal of work to make it work.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: starting out
    smoke meat wrote: »
    going off grid in a few year. running lights, appliances. water well, I also have a 5 hp 240 v motor that I will have to run, not that often. I did some numbers all ready it may take a great deal of work to make it work.

    Well you're right there: a 5 HP motor uses a lot of power. To set up an off grid system to power that would take a lot of money, and most of the time the equipment would not be in use. Best to fire up a big gen when you need that kind of power.

    So let's talk about money. Chiefly why you want to go off grid? It will not save you a dime. Know that going in.

    Best investment you can make right now is a Kill-A-Watt meter; start gathering info on how much power everything you use takes. It will be far more accurate to measure it that way than to 'calculate' based on the specs supplied by the manufacturer of anything. In the process you may find things that use too much power, use power when they are 'off', and see quite a few ways to reduce your over-all power consumption. Only good can come of that, whether on or off grid.
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  • smoke meat
    smoke meat Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #5
    Re: starting out

    some of us feel that the grid will go down the way this country is going. we are trying to get ready for when it happens. if it wouldn't be for that i might build a small one to learn from.
    on the 5 hp i can go to a 3 hp and gear it down, that is not hard for me to do.
    i will start looking for a meter soon and start getting data on use age.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: starting out

    Just so you know 1 mechanical HP is not the same as 1 electrical HP because that darn motor can load pretty heavy, slow down, and draw more current.

    But basically 5 HP would be 3730 Watts running. On a 48 Volt system that one item would be pulling near 100 Amps, which would require a huge battery bank just to maintain Voltage against the draw. It isn't that it can't be done, it's just that it becomes very expensive to do it.

    Considering the number of people making huge profits off keeping the grid up and running I wouldn't be too worried about it failing.
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  • smoke meat
    smoke meat Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #7
    Re: starting out

    do you think? YES THEY ARE DOING IT NOW.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: starting out
    smoke meat wrote: »
    do you think? YES THEY ARE DOING IT NOW.

    Doing what?
    I've been on this planet more than half a century and the North American power grid isn't any worse off now than it was 50 years ago. Unfortunately it isn't any better either.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: starting out

    i think he should consider staying on the grid and use a hybrid inverter more simply known as a battery backed gt inverter. this would still allow you to sell to the grid at a reduced efficiency for any excess pv power generated and still have the benefit of being able to function without the grid's presence.

    that said you will need to determine what your loads are you need to power over a typical day in watt hours. a kilawatt meter is good for this.
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  • smoke meat
    smoke meat Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #10
    Re: starting out

    Our carrier Entergy was over charging on our bill after two storms an the feds fined them for what they did. They are laying off 800 people to pay for what they did.
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  • smoke meat
    smoke meat Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #11
    Re: starting out

    That is my next step to see the watts I use. Where can I get a meter to do this?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: starting out

    Kill-A-Watt and similar meters are available lots of places, including on-line. Should be about $30. Check your local hardware stores. In some locations apparently you can even borrow one from the library!
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: starting out

    radio shack, sears, lowes, home depot, and walmart right off the top of my head carry them.
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  • smoke meat
    smoke meat Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #14
    Re: starting out

    The battery that is used for in a system what is the life on them when are set up right? Where can I find info on taking care of them?
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,631 admin
    #15
    Re: starting out

    For inexpensive "golf cart batteries" 3-5 years.

    Medium cost flooded cell--Around 5-8 years (sometimes out towards 11 years).

    High end flooded cell batteries--Around 10-15 years.

    Fork Lift batteries designed for long service life--15-20+ years.

    From our hosts Battery FAQ:

    http://www.solar-electric.com/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html#Lifespan%20of%20Batteries
    he lifespan of a deep cycle battery will vary considerably with how it is used, how it is maintained and charged, temperature, and other factors. In extreme cases, it can vary to extremes - we have seen L-16's killed in less than a year by severe overcharging and water loss, and we have a large set of surplus telephone batteries that sees only occasional (10-15 times per year) heavy service that were just replace after 35+ years. We have seen gelled cells destroyed in one day when overcharged with a large automotive charger. We have seen golf cart batteries destroyed without ever being used in less than a year because they were left sitting in a hot garage or warehouse without being charged. Even the so-called "dry charged" (where you add acid when you need them) have a shelf life of 18 months at most. (They are not totally dry - they are actually filled with acid, the plates formed and charged, then the acid is dumped out). These are some typical (minimum - maximum) typical expectations for batteries if used in deep cycle service. There are so many variables, such as depth of discharge, maintenance, temperature, how often and how deep cycled, etc. that it is almost impossible to give a fixed number.
    • Starting: 3-12 months
    • Marine: 1-6 years
    • Golf cart: 2-7 years
    • AGM deep cycle: 4-8 years
    • Gelled deep cycle: 2-5 years
    • Deep cycle (L-16 type etc): 4-8 years
    • Rolls-Surrette premium deep cycle: 7-15 years
    • Industrial deep cycle (Crown and Rolls 4KS series): 10-20+ years.
    • Telephone (float): 2-20 years. These are usually special purpose "float service", but often appear on the surplus market as "deep cycle". They can vary considerably, depending on age, usage, care, and type.
    • NiFe (alkaline): 5-35 years
    • NiCad: 1-20 years
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • smoke meat
    smoke meat Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭
    #16
    Re: starting out

    thanks for the help. now i have some work for now.
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  • zoneblue
    zoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: starting out

    I look at it this way, maybe going off the grid is not just about how you power your lights. If you beleive that the 'system' is not to be depended on (not saying whether it is or isnt), that behoves you to reinvent your world. Thats a much bigger project, moving from pushing paper around a desk for some multimnational for a day job to learning real skills, building networks, learning to self govern as communities.

    I worry about these people that live in the citys, and think that because they own a generator and have vacuum sealed rice or whatever that they are 'prepped'. If you live in the city and dont have space or time to grow food, then maybe moving to the country is a priority? Then youll probably find that there is no grid, haha, and you have no choice. Then we will see you in the off grid forum ;)
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


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  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: starting out
    zoneblue wrote: »
    I look at it this way, maybe going off the grid is not just about how you power your lights. If you beleive that the 'system' is not to be depended on (not saying whether it is or isnt), that behoves you to reinvent your world.

    I am 100% with you on that one.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #19
    Re: starting out
    zoneblue wrote: »
    I worry about these people that live in the citys, and think that because they own a generator and have vacuum sealed rice or whatever that they are 'prepped'. If you live in the city and dont have space or time to grow food, then maybe moving to the country is a priority?

    If all these city people will be dying of hanger, and they know where the food grows, where do you think they go? And you think people in the country will be able to stand up to them? Not a little chance.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: starting out

    Time to put the brakes on before this thread deteriorates into a philosophical discussion of Armageddon scenarios.
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  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: starting out
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    If all these city people will be dying of hanger, and they know where the food grows, where do you think they go? And you think people in the country will be able to stand up to them? Not a little chance.

    LOL - You haven't seen the kinda folks I live near by ;) I personally have a modest moat and berm around my property but a friend dug his around an entire 10 acres with a 330 as far as the boom would reach and has 20' high berms :) Not to mention a couple of gators living in it :)

    Plus we have an excessive amount of ... um .... personal protection ;)
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
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