240 VAC Water Pump Question

SkOrPn · October 2013

Hello everyone, nice to meet you guys.

I live in central New Mexico (Arizona neighbor), in the East Mountains near Albuquerque, NM. We have 5 acres of land and a 36 panel array from CST, LLC. It is a 12kW grid tie system. However we would like to build a battery bank to compliment our 5000w generator just for the assumption that we could experience extended time frames of the grid being down. This bank would be charged by the grid, either 240v or 120v, or by the the generator and or Solar Array. I do not know the specs of the pump, only that it is fed by 240 VAC and is 500 feet below us, so probably requires a lot of power to start (pure assumption). We live in the mountains so the water table is quite deep (175ft), but on a plus note it provides plenty of water year after year, including watering a large garden every summer. It usually keeps my 1500 gallon tank 2/3 full year round.

My question is, can I build a battery bank that can pump water 3 or 4 times a day (15 minutes at a time) for say 2 weeks straight, or at least enough time to keep 5-6 people alive? My pump is timer controlled already so I can time it to what ever is necessary if the grid goes down for long periods. I could use the generator for the starting surge I assume, but not for operation weeks at a time. Just curious how long a 240 VAC pump will last on say 10-20 deep cycle batts before they discharge? Also, I assume an Inverter is necessary for the required DC-AC conversion, or is there DC pumps I can get that will work that far down and be powered directly by the batteries on a timer switch?

Thanks for any help you can provide. If more info is needed please let me know what I need to figure out first.

Thanks again
Rod

P.S. we purchased a hand pump system but it does not reach the absolute minimum 175 feet down needed to find water haha. Stupid attempt on our part. Might need to try a conventional water bucket system with rope for emergencies.

P.S.S. If this is the wrong section to ask about this I apologize. There are two sections that seem apropriate, Solar Water Pump section or battery backup section. I decided to do this section first since it is Water Pump related. Thanks

waynefromnscanada · October 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

Hi Rod, welcome to the forum!
First few questions we have for you: - - your pump - - what HP is it? What amperage? We are assuming it doesn't require 3 phase power.

SkOrPn · October 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

Hi Rod, welcome to the forum!
First few questions we have for you: - - your pump - - what HP is it? What amperage? We are assuming it doesn't require 3 phase power.

Howdy Wayne from Canada. This is weird, my middle name is Wayne, lol... Anyway, we will be working on the array come Monday which is conveniently situated just a few feet from the well. I do not remember any of the pump specs off hand but I believe we have a spare still sitting in a box somewhere, just have to remember where. Once I find that info out I will reply here again.

Thank you Wayne

inetdog · October 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

SkOrPn wrote: »

P.S. we purchased a hand pump system but it does not reach the absolute minimum 175 feet down needed to find water haha. Stupid attempt on our part. Might need to try a conventional water bucket system with rope for emergencies.

There actually are hand pumps that work to any depth you can practically drill to. They use a pull rod to work the pump cylinder located below the water level. They are pretty pricy, and it will work up a sweat pumping a lot of water, but they exist. You can probably find a link to the manufacturer in here somewhere.
(The deeper the well, the more leverage you have to set the handle up for. They also sell a DC linear actuator motor to automate the process.)

Here you go: Up to 350 feet
http://www.survivalunlimited.com/deepwellpump.htm

BB. · October 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

You might also think about pumping to a cistern... Pump once a day to once a week--And use a smaller 12/24 volt DC pump (or AC pump) + pressure tank to run water to the home.

There are advantages to cisterns--You can use a gasoline genset running for 30-60 minutes a pumping session (fuel efficient, good back up for solar, or cheaper than solar) and pump with a small pressure pump for 24x7 water at home.

Obvious issues is keeping the cistern and water clean (chlorine, ozone, various filters, etc.). A whole 'nother kettle of fish.

-Bill

mike95490 · October 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

I have a well matched deep well pump & motor. You need to match the motor, to the pump unit for the depth and gallons you require. My 1/2 hp motor, according to the inverter's monitor function, consumes just about 1KW running, and likely at least 4x that for starting. I pump about 160' to an elevated tank on a hill, to provide water pressure. And several thousand feet of pipe in 4' deep trench, but it's dead simple. Water is processed through a passive Slow Sand filter (DIY) and is held in a 1500 storage tank with an ozonater, about 50watts for the air pump and UV light.

tmarch · October 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

If it were me I would go with a different pump such as a Grundfos SQF and power it with solar or the grid as long as the grid is available. These pumps are capable of pumping at that depth and with the soft start feature they don't require a generator. There is several options to power the pump, either with a dedicated array or switching part of your existing array to the pump when necessary. Realistically the batteries will probably be more expensive than a new pump and trying to run your existing pump from batteries would be hard. JMHO

Coach Dad · October 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

This should be easy to do with a Magnum MS4024-PAE inverter and a 24 volt battery bank.
I'm sure there are other inverters that will do the same thing but the MS4024-PAE is a split phase 120/240 Volt inverter that has a 110 Amp battery charger built into it. You can hook the charger up to the grid or to your generator. The 4000 watts of inverter should be plenty to run your existing deep well pump.

I've got a 410 foot well using a 3/4 HP 240 Volt deep well pump and an 80 gallon pressure tank. The inverter handles it without any problem... Of course you still need to find out the size of your water pump just to be sure and you will need to size your battery bank based on your expected usage.

Texas Wellman · October 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

First off a couple of things:

Since you have a "grid tied" system you should already have an inverter. What you are wanting to do is tie a battery bank in with your existing system. The inverter you've already got should be able to handle your pump load with no problem, you just may need to ensure that you run it when other things aren't scheduled to run. The battery stuff etc. now just depends on what you want to spend and how comfortable you want to be if the power goes out.

I would possibly look into going with the Grundfos SQ pump because it has a much lower surge during start-up. It essentially has a built-in soft start. The SQ Flex on the other hand is specially made for off-grid and on-grid situations and will run on 30-300 VDC or 90-230 VAC, it's pretty much plug and play for solar pumps for people who have grid tied power. They are somewhat pricey is about the only downside.

It won't take 15 minutes of run time 3-4 times per day to keep 5-6 people with water no matter what you go with. When you get rid of the waste a person could easily survive on a few gallons per day.

You need to find out what the exact water level is and what level the pump is set at and we can tell you what works best and how much water you require per day. There is plenty of sun in your region, I don't think you would ever need to go 2-3 weeks without charging the batteries.

Good luck.

SkOrPn wrote: »

Hello everyone, nice to meet you guys.

I live in central New Mexico (Arizona neighbor), in the East Mountains near Albuquerque, NM. We have 5 acres of land and a 36 panel array from CST, LLC. It is a 12kW grid tie system. However we would like to build a battery bank to compliment our 5000w generator just for the assumption that we could experience extended time frames of the grid being down. This bank would be charged by the grid, either 240v or 120v, or by the the generator and or Solar Array. I do not know the specs of the pump, only that it is fed by 240 VAC and is 500 feet below us, so probably requires a lot of power to start (pure assumption). We live in the mountains so the water table is quite deep (175ft), but on a plus note it provides plenty of water year after year, including watering a large garden every summer. It usually keeps my 1500 gallon tank 2/3 full year round.

My question is, can I build a battery bank that can pump water 3 or 4 times a day (15 minutes at a time) for say 2 weeks straight, or at least enough time to keep 5-6 people alive? My pump is timer controlled already so I can time it to what ever is necessary if the grid goes down for long periods. I could use the generator for the starting surge I assume, but not for operation weeks at a time. Just curious how long a 240 VAC pump will last on say 10-20 deep cycle batts before they discharge? Also, I assume an Inverter is necessary for the required DC-AC conversion, or is there DC pumps I can get that will work that far down and be powered directly by the batteries on a timer switch?

Thanks for any help you can provide. If more info is needed please let me know what I need to figure out first.

Thanks again
Rod

P.S. we purchased a hand pump system but it does not reach the absolute minimum 175 feet down needed to find water haha. Stupid attempt on our part. Might need to try a conventional water bucket system with rope for emergencies.

P.S.S. If this is the wrong section to ask about this I apologize. There are two sections that seem apropriate, Solar Water Pump section or battery backup section. I decided to do this section first since it is Water Pump related. Thanks

Out There · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

This pre-existing thread appeared to be the most appropriate place to ask this question:
I've just bought an off-the-grid home. It's somewhat remote, but not so remote that some locals vandalized/burglarized the property while it was on the market (over a year unoccupied). Among the things stolen was a Trace transformer which had been used exclusively to step up the 110 VAC to 240 VAC for the well pump. I have visually inspected the well and the pump. It is a 45' deep well. Static water level about 18' from ground level. The pump is powered by a 240 VAC 1/2 HP motor. The transformer was pretty much ripped from the wall in the electric room (the guy also lost his batteries, inverter and generator while the house sat vacant..... ).
My question, then, is this: Trace has since sold out to Xantrex and another company. Where can I get a 120 to 240 VAC step up transformer which will be capable of powering (especially start-up) this pump? Does anyone have a similar unit they're no longer using for sale?
Brian

Texas Wellman · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

Is the pump submersible or a jet (above ground) pump? If it's submersible you might just look at going with a more off-grid friendly pump, unless you just don't want to mess with the well. In that case I'll defer to those who are more knowledgeable for the 110-->230V transformer.

Cariboocoot · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

Autotransformers are not difficult to come by. The venerable Outback X240 for example: http://www.solar-electric.com/x-240.html

Regrettably they aren't cheap. Probably stolen for the scrap metal value.

Dave Angelini · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

Outback makes an identical XFMR. It is the X240 I believe.

Out There wrote: »

This pre-existing thread appeared to be the most appropriate place to ask this question:
I've just bought an off-the-grid home. It's somewhat remote, but not so remote that some locals vandalized/burglarized the property while it was on the market (over a year unoccupied). Among the things stolen was a Trace transformer which had been used exclusively to step up the 110 VAC to 240 VAC for the well pump. I have visually inspected the well and the pump. It is a 45' deep well. Static water level about 18' from ground level. The pump is powered by a 240 VAC 1/2 HP motor. The transformer was pretty much ripped from the wall in the electric room (the guy also lost his batteries, inverter and generator while the house sat vacant..... ).
My question, then, is this: Trace has since sold out to Xantrex and another company. Where can I get a 120 to 240 VAC step up transformer which will be capable of powering (especially start-up) this pump? Does anyone have a similar unit they're no longer using for sale?
Brian

jcheil · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

Out There wrote: »

It is a 45' deep well. Static water level about 18' from ground level.Brian

If it is that shallow, you could easily get by with a cheap above ground pump or a jet-pump running on 110v.
My well is 40ish feet with a standing water level about 15 or so feet from the ground and get by with a super cheap above ground (non-jet) 110v pump.

I have used one of these (link below) and it has lasted 8 years so far (which amazed me for cheap junk china pumps). I agree they are cheap as the day is long, but it gets the job done and draws about 700w at 110v AC. But I also pump it into a 275g storage tank once a week or so (at solar peak times) and then use a 12 surflo pump to supply water/pressure to the house. So it only runs for about 20-30 minutes per week. So that might be too much of a power hog for you to run 24/7 "on demand" unless you can do the storage tank thing also.

Either way not sure why you would need a deep well let alone at 240v for a well that shallow.

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-horsepower-shallow-well-pump-with-stainless-steel-housing-69302.html

Out There · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

It's a submersible pump. I looked into DC pumps, but most of the ones I found were intended to transfer water from the well to a cistern (or other tank), later to be pressurized either by gravity or another pump.
My set-up is a deep well pumping to a captive air pressure tank.
Brian

jcheil · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

That would still work with an above ground pump (like in my previous reply) even into an (additional) pressurized tank.
Again, if it is REALLY that shallow and the static water level stays at 18'.

Out There · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

Hi and thanks for responding. I looked at the link you included. As with most (if not all) surface pumps I know of, there is a maximum depth from which it can pump (in this case - 26'). This makes me a bit nervous. I think any time you have a well over 25' it gets classified as a "deep well". I'm also wary of the power draw. I'd like to keep this as simple as possible, and I know the previous owner had a transformer running this pump... so.... I hope to go the same way - at least for now.
Brian

jcheil · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

Out There wrote: »

Hi and thanks for responding. I looked at the link you included. As with most (if not all) surface pumps I know of, there is a maximum depth from which it can pump (in this case - 26'). This makes me a bit nervous. I think any time you have a well over 25' it gets classified as a "deep well". I'm also wary of the power draw. I'd like to keep this as simple as possible, and I know the previous owner had a transformer running this pump... so.... I hope to go the same way - at least for now.
Brian

"Somewhat" correct. A non-jet pump is limited by physics to 26-27 feet of suction. An above ground "jet" pump can go WAY deeper (100+) with the proper jet.

Out There · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

I stand corrected. I know about jet pumps, but completely forgot about that as a possible solution. I don't know if I want to go about "re-inventing the wheel", here. The previous owner assures me the pump is good (despite it not running for a long time), and aside from the missing transformer, the system is ready to go.
Is there some efficiency comparison between the 240v submersible and a 110v jet pump? I guess knowing that can also play into the decision-making process.
Brian

BB. · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

A jet pump is much less efficient... But the question is how much water will you be pumping? ~80 gallons per day per person, or 100's of gallons per day for irrigation.

Any pump that has sat for a long time--I would be worried about. If nothing else, you probably need a 3.5-5kW generator to run some power tools/backup--Get (or borrow) one that is 120/240 VAC and try running the pump and see what happens before you commit to the 240 VAC transformer (or inverter) to run it.

-Bill

jcheil · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

BB. wrote: »

Any pump that has sat for a long time--I would be worried about.-Bill

Yeah especially one that has been sitting UNDERWATER

And to answer the other question the 120v/240v difference comes into play based on how much the pump draws in power vs the size of the wire needed. So if it was drawing 20 amps at 120v you would need a 2x larger wire than running it at 240v. And that is a lot more $ in wire especially if you are going down several hundred feet in a deep well, not to mention voltage drop.

But "if" it can run on 120v (some can) and the wire size is correct for it already (likely not but possible since it is only 40') then maybe just change it over to running on 120v?
Not sure if it is more efficient to run it at 240v - I am certainly no expert on that.

Out There · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

An excellent idea, Bill!
I've got an 8kw Generac in place on the property.
(separately)The generator is intended as a backup, but I wonder if there's a way to wire it not only to take the 120v loads from my inverter in times of need, but also to run the pump directly when needed? I've got over 400 gallon capacity (captive air pressure tanks 220 x 2), so the pump would not need to run very often. This is simply for household use.
Brian

Out There · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

The wiring running to the pump now is a flat (I believe it is direct-bury cable) 12/3 with Ground or 10/3 with ground (I didn't look, so this is a guess to be totally honest).
Not wanting to be in the breaker panel when it's live, I'm relegated to daylight hours to play with this (okay... there ARE flashlights, etc..... I know), and I work during the day. So I've got until the weekend to do a lot of this hypothetical figuring before I go back to the house to work on the electricity.
I've not dealt with submersible pumps which have sat, unused, for long periods of time. Is there some way I can check the pump to see of it's workable without just powering it up and hoping it whirs to life?

Texas Wellman · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

The sub is quite a bit more efficient than the jet pump. One advantage to a jet pump is that they can run off of either 110V or 220, they are selectable. Subs are single voltage only. If you have an 18' water level and the well doesn't draw down the shallow well jet would be a good solution if you decided not to use the transformer.

Another solution is to replace your 220V sub with a 110V sub. At that water level the 110V 1/2 HP sub should give you plenty of water. You can even keep the pump and simply switch out the motor. Be sure to check to make sure your wire is the correct size as your amps will double. #14 AWG and bigger should be OK, depending on distance.

FWIW: A CSCR (cap start, cap run) control box will be slightly more efficient than a cap start, and a 2-wire motor will be slightly less efficient than a 3-wire. I assume you already have a 3 wire with control box?

Out There · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

Yes, the control box is in the basement and the supply for the pump runs out of that - black, white, red and ground (if I remember correctly). There is a big capacitor in the control box. Also, the well is located about 6 feet away from the point of entry into the house. All electrical connections are less than 12 feet from the well head. I've never separated a submersible pump from the motor. How difficult is that? What am I looking at ($) for a 110v sub motor?
Brian

Cariboocoot · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

If I were you I'd fire up that gen and see if the pump that's there is any good before making plans to buy a new pump or a transformer or an inverter. It should not be difficult to wire a 240 VAC line from the gen to the pump control - you'd basically hook in where the transformer has been torn out.

You would not change the motor on the pump; you'd replace the whole unit.

westbranch · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

Do you have any danger of freezing in winter? That will eliminate some options.

Out There · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

The problem I have is the wiring that's left is suspicious. Nothing there looks quite appropriate to provide 240v to a major load. I don't know how it was wired previously, but this stuff is just hanging (literally) out of the AC load center. The only wires I think are even close to appropriately sized are a 10/2 (12/2?) with ground which I THINK runs to the pressure switch.
I just got off the phone with a local well drilling/pump outfit. They have replacement motors (115v) to replace the 230 v motors. They've also got 2 and 3 wire 115v pumps. Their prices are quite high ($700 for a basic pump plus cost of control box for 3 wire unit) as compared to Amazon and eBay (anywhere from $170 to $450). I found a brand new Flotec 10gpm 115v two wire pump for $250.
Brian

Out There · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

We do get some freezes, especially in January/early February. I see what you're thinking. Everything with the sub is well below grade or indoors. A Jet would require protecting that assemble and the inlet to the house.
Brian

Cariboocoot · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

Major load it may be but big current draw it isn't. Less than 15 Amps I think you'll find, so large wire size isn't really needed. High Voltage = lower V-drop too.

Normally the power goes to the pressure switch, which switches both sides, and then to the pump control box.

I knew the pumps would be expensive as I just paid $750 for one (1/2 HP submersible 3 wire with start and run capacitors). That's why I suggested powering up the one you've got to see if it still works.

westbranch · November 2013

Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

Look for Franklin pumps also..

http://www.franklin-electric.com/residential-light-commercial/little-giant-water-systems/submersible-deep-well/pumps.aspx

240 VAC Water Pump Question

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