Beginner questions on used equipment

harley96cube
harley96cube Registered Users Posts: 4
Hello,
I have utility power and will stay connected. I am looking to get into alternative energy for net-metering and as a backup if grid is down for extended period.
I would add a generator to the mix and have considered wind as well.
I ran across a gentleman who has the following equipment that he is going to sell. He was selling something else that I went to look at and I asked him about the solar panels as they were mounted but not connected.
He was off grid for a number of years and recently was connected to utility power.
He said he just didn't want to mess with it any longer...once he connected to the utility.
He said the 4024 replaced the 3624 to get sine wave as 3624 caused issues with electronics.
I don't have any solar/alternative yet and wonder if buying this setup might be a way to get started. Of course, it depends on how much I can buy it for. (He didn't state an asking price)
Here is what he has:
8- 75 Watt SIEMENS Panels
4-175Watt SolarWorld Panels
2-Combiner Box's
2- Lightning Arrester's
Pole Mount
Roof Mount
Main Box (power center) w/all Breakers & Internal wiring
Charge Control- Tri Star 60
Charge Control C- 40 Trace
1- Trace 4024. Inverter. SINE WAVE
1- Trace 3624 Inverter MODIFIED SINE WAVE
Trimetric Meter
Battery Cables (short & long) for 8 Battery Bank
Operator Manuals for ALL Components
Also detailed wiring instructions
Battery Hydrometer
Box of Bolts for Battery Cables

If I could get this equipment for a good price, is it a good place to start?
What would be a good price?

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Beginner questions on used equipment

    Welcome to the forum Harley,

    Personally, I like to suggest that you get an idea of how much power you need to generate to meet your needs. Solar power is not cheap and an over sized system can be costly.

    Once you know/understand your loads and power requirements, then you can look at the hardware and see if it meets your needs or not.

    The 75 watt panels are not really optimum for use on larger systems anymore--You can replace those eight panels and wiring with about two 250+ Watt solar panels these days.

    The inverters--Look at the exact model numbers. And while they may not be worth a lot for your needs (depending on the load evaluation), there are people here looking for backups/parts for older inverters.

    Solar panels are cheap ($1-$2 per watt new). Off Grid and Hybrid inverters are somewhere around $0.50 to $1.00 per watt or so... I would suggest you look at our host's web store for current costing.

    Batteries are getting more expensive and have a limited life--So designing the battery bank around your needs will be a critical choice too.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • harley96cube
    harley96cube Registered Users Posts: 4
    Re: Beginner questions on used equipment

    A bit more background info:
    I have 2 incoming service connections from utility. One is metered for my ground source heat pump, which is at a reduced $/kwh rate and the other which is used for almost everything else is metered at the normal $/kwh rate. I also have off-peak hot water heating which they have a meter that I assume is using a current sensing loop and differential calculations off of the heat pump meter.
    My electric bills are currently not bad, but I worry about short and long term outages as well as if the $/kwh that utility charges were to skyrocket. Regardless of which direction I go, a generator will be installed. With lights, heat, cooling, cooking, etc. all being electric, a generator is a must for short term outages.
    Using the electric companies usage data from last 10 months: Avg daily usage 61 KWH , Avg Monthly usage 1,881 KWH, Highest daily avg was 94 KWH during cold of Jan.
    Split of 3 meters: 1,881 KWH = 122 KWH (Hot Water) + 751 KWH (Heat Pump) + 1,008 KWH (remaining lights, frig, freeze, etc.).
    The utility power has been up about 99.7%, so during this time period a generator would have been sufficient backup...but what if that was 95% or 90% or $/KWH triples?

    I guess in a nutshell, my goal would be to invest in alternative energy, whether it be solar, wind, or both, such that I could net meter for the 99% and have disaster backup that would give me at least some level of electrical power for long term outage.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Beginner questions on used equipment

    Solar power can be expensive... If you are interested in saving money--Then a pure Grid Tied units (solar panels + GT inverter connected to your main AC panel) can get down into the $0.10-$0.20 per kHW range.

    However, any sort of battery backed system (off grid or hybrid GT+Off Grid capable inverter)... Will easily run in the ~$0.45 per kWH range (Hybrid) to $1-$2+ per kWH for full Off Grid power (numbers are very approximate--Just close enough to figure out what is of most interest to you).

    For a GT system--You pay for the full system up front and (hopefully) replace a GT inverter every 10+ years. (note there are many leasing+installers out there too--Very small up front charges + some sort of payments over 10-20 years).

    For an Off Grid/Hybrid system--You pay ~50% of the 20 year system cost up front, and the balance is replacement batteries (~5-8 years for "average cost" good quality batteries) and electronics (inverter, charge controllers, etc.) every ~10+ years.

    So, take the entire system cost (installation+maintenance+taxes--if any--for 20 years) and divide by kWH generated (used) over that 20 year period gives you a rough $$$/kWH cost.

    So, if you are running (on average) ~1,800 kWH per month, that would be in the area of $3,600 per month equivalent cost for an Off Grid system or ~$900 per month (over 20 years) equivalent for a Hybrid System (good net metering plan from your utility).

    I don't want to get to wrapped up in the estimated costing details right now (yes, there are people here that generate off grid power for less money)--But it is "good enough" to figure out a direction to start for you.

    And, it gives you some incentive to look at conservation/energy management to see reduce your over all power costs first before looking at solar/RE power.

    In general, it is almost always less costly to conserve a kWH than to generate a kWH.

    Energy usage is a highly personal set of choices--Not trying to tell you how to "live" a green life--Just trying to better address your overall goal of cost control and "future proofing" your savings. Many of us here made the choice to go with Solar Power because it saved money and/or provide off grid power where grid power was not available (at a reasonable cost) and/or grid power is/will be unreliable.

    If you have never addressed conservation before--It is possible through insulation, getting modern Energy Star appliances/HVAC systems, and looking at newer technologies (such as heat pump based water heating) to reduce your energy usage by ~1/2 ... Which saves money for your utility power, and makes the cost of off grid power much less too.

    So, while you started this as a question about Solar/RE Power--I would suggest we instead talk about conservation first for your home.

    Questions/Observations?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Beginner questions on used equipment

    bill is right about cutting back on power usages and why the separate service for the pump? is it that big that you need to drain the river?:p

    backing up usage that large will prove expensive even if talking only the generator. to go with batteries and inverter it would be quite large unless you limit what is being powered and for how long. you could figure a backup for a circuit or 2 with a hybrid inverter that could buffer outages by a few hours and later add in the solar panels and controller(s).

    you have time to talk it over and research stuff while you make the conservation efforts.
  • harley96cube
    harley96cube Registered Users Posts: 4
    Re: Beginner questions on used equipment

    I am working on conservation and cutting power usage. Phantom loads, kids leaving lights on, using clothesline rather than dryer to start. Changing the temp in the house a few degrees, etc.
    It seemed much easier in my previous home to reduce electricity (and propane) usage. I installed outdoor wood furnace that was used for heat and domestic hot water.
    In this house everything is electric. Ground source heat pump, hot water, etc.
    For niel: the separate service for the heat pump is the Ground Source Heat Pump for geothermal heating and cooling. The electric company sells at a reduced rate of ($0.08/kwh) compared to residential/other at $0.14/kwh and requires a separate panel/meter to get the lower rate. Same with storage hot water (off peak), which has a separate meter and is $0.05/kwh.

    I am also looking at what really are "critical loads". I certainly wouldn't need to have backup power for a dishwasher or dryer for an outage, but need freezer to have power.
    I have a Kill-a-watt and a current sensing multi-meter that I will use to document true loads. It will also show me where I can conserve.

    Just to add an example: In January, the heat pump panel used 1400KWH +
    In other words, that was only to heat the house during the cold part of the winter.
    Adding more insulation, burning wood in an efficient fireplace, and turning down the thermostat are about the only ways that I can think of to reduce that number.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Beginner questions on used equipment

    Sounds like you are off to a good start...
    Just to add an example: In January, the heat pump panel used 1400KWH +
    In other words, that was only to heat the house during the cold part of the winter.
    Adding more insulation, burning wood in an efficient fireplace, and turning down the thermostat are about the only ways that I can think of to reduce that number.

    More insulation, installing double pane insulated (vinyl or other good insulating window), weather stripping, heavy drapes on windows/glass doors, etc. all help (from what I understand--55F is a "Cold day" in my region).

    The wood burning fireplace may be an issue with drawing too heated room air up the chimney--An efficient sealed wood burning stove may be a better.

    Also, your utility may offer some home efficiency evaluation services/contractors. From what little I have seen, you have to take their recommendations with a grain of salt--But it is interesting to get a comparison with homes in your neighborhood/region and see were "your" power usage falls.

    I am sure there are people on the forum with a lot more cold weather experience than I can offer (limited to put on a coat :blush:). Hopefully a couple of them will chime in.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • harley96cube
    harley96cube Registered Users Posts: 4
    Re: Beginner questions on used equipment

    My current fireplace is barely used, as it does send most of the heat up the chimney and has no fan to circulate warm air. I have looked into a sealed wood burning insert that has a fan for circulating the hot air into the room.
    I have good windows and most windows have window coverings that help hold heat in. I just need to train everyone to close them to keep in the heat. The biggest problem will be getting cabin fever. A lot of people don't like to spend much time outside in the winter here, so having windows covered too much will probably lead to some claustrophobia.
    Cold days here in the winter get to -20F.
    The people that built the house really like can lights. I have been replacing incandescent bulbs with LED when I can.
    Thanks for the information.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Beginner questions on used equipment

    sorry about my misreading that before as i skimmed too fast. my bad.

    the sealed wood burning insert may be nice if all is properly done. be sure to add an inner liner to better isolate the smoke and heat damages to the actual chimney unless you intend a new chimney output elsewhere. the stresses on the bricks and mortar from fireplaces can be great over time so there is care and maintenance involved in it. only other drawback are bugs in the wood that escape to the place before you get to burn that wood.

    bill did cover the majority in general, but each circumstance can be unique too. we can't know it in that much detail to say detailed and sometimes the effort is just too great for the rewards reaped. this applies to solar as well and is a judgement call that you will ultimately have to make as it applies to you and your circumstances. advice from the peanut gallery is cheap and easier said than done most times, but we try.
  • peakbagger
    peakbagger Solar Expert Posts: 341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Beginner questions on used equipment

    For wood heating devices, Hearth.com is a good resource. Realistically a fireplace is a net energy user. A properly designed insert with blowers is marginally efficient, and free standing wood stove is the most efficient. If you have can lights, odds are they are a major break in the vapor barrier and insulation system. The energy audits done by my local utility are pretty good, basically the best payback is sealing air leaks with insulation coming in second.