Secondary tank/pump ?

ArkansasoffgridArkansasoffgrid Solar Expert Posts: 118 ✭✭
Due to terrain issues, the "house-in-construction" is about 250' from well and about 30' to highest water outlet. Plan is to install 1000gal tank under home and only crank the well once a week to fill this tank using temporary pipe/hose since this is all rock terrain. What pump is best suited for the 1000gal storage tank to supply pressurized water to house with max of 25' lift? Possibly 120vac/low amp:confused:
8-420AH US Battery L-16s, Midnite Classic 150cc, Whiz Bang Jr, Magnum MS4448PAE inverter/charger,  4590w Canadian Solar panels. Honda EU2000i generator.

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,697 admin
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?

    If you can position the tank and pump so that the pump is below the minimum water level of the tank--You will be much happier. Drawing water above the tank level can cause lots of problems (need foot valve to hold prime, filter screens plug up and increase vacuum, cavitation in the pump wears it out sooner, etc.).

    Submersible pumps can be OK, but are usually much more expensive than pumps you can install outside the tank. If you can avoid needing to make a pit below/beside the pit, then flooding/drainage problems are never an issue.

    If you are off grid--The well pump can be an issue too... Standard AC in-well pumps can be a problem for off grid systems because even the 1/2 horse models can take a lot of power, and 2-5x that amount for starting surges.

    There are in-well submersible (and non-submersible) pumps that are very efficient and can have almost no starting surge--and some of the will run direct from solar panels, batteries, or even AC power with the same pump/hardware... But they are not cheap.

    You can also get a three wire (an AC pump with well head starting capacitor) or three phase pump and use a VFD (variable frequency drive) which can give you soft start and variable speed (RPM) to better match the well to your needs.

    Using a cistern (fill with well pump) and pressurize the home with a smaller AC (or even 12/24 VDC) surface pump can be a very good way to go.

    Do you have any problems with freezing (probably not?)?

    Are there any requirements for water storage and/or fire pumping (some places require storage/pumping for permits)?

    Your thoughts?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?

    Why not use a big pump to fill the big tank and then pump into a smaller Ptank? The idea of putting 1000 gals of water up to 50psi is gng to take a lot of energy, as opposed to just pumping it into atmosphere.

    Tony
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?
    Due to terrain issues, the "house-in-construction" is about 250' from well and about 30' to highest water outlet. Plan is to install 1000gal tank under home and only crank the well once a week to fill this tank using temporary pipe/hose since this is all rock terrain. What pump is best suited for the 1000gal storage tank to supply pressurized water to house with max of 25' lift? Possibly 120vac/low amp:confused:

    Welcome to the forum,

    I have two questions:
    1) are you off-grid? (BB. already asked) Depending on your source of power you may need to pay attention to the pump's startup surge.

    2) how fast (gpm) do you use the water in the house? In other words, are you washing the dishes and doing laundry while someone is showering?

    You expressed an interest in a 120 volt AC, low amp pump. My wife and I get by pretty well with this pump:
    http://www.solar-electric.com/2088-594-154.html
    It's not an heirloom quality pump, but its cheap and easy to replace the diaphragm every few years.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • ArkansasoffgridArkansasoffgrid Solar Expert Posts: 118 ✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?

    The 1000 gallon tank under home would be for storage only. Plan is to use portable generator once a week to run the well, which will fill this storage tank. The pump in question would draw water from the storage tank to provide water/pressure for house. From the storage tank to the highest shower head in home would be 25' lift, so for a off grid home using primarily AC voltage what's the best pump? Possible use of shower & laundry or laundry & sink, not likely all 3 at once.
    8-420AH US Battery L-16s, Midnite Classic 150cc, Whiz Bang Jr, Magnum MS4448PAE inverter/charger,  4590w Canadian Solar panels. Honda EU2000i generator.
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?
    The pump in question would draw water from the storage tank to provide water/pressure for house. From the storage tank to the highest shower head in home would be 25' lift, so for a off grid home using primarily AC voltage what's the best pump? Possible use of shower & laundry or laundry & sink, not likely all 3 at once.

    This pump: http://www.solar-electric.com/iss-2920-115.html is much higher quality than the Shurflo and will pump over 4 GPM. That should be enough for two fixtures at once. The Shurflo is only 3 GPM, but if you use an oversized pressure tank it will be adequate for the task.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,463 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?

    Don't forget, the larger the pressure tank, the less start cycles the pump has, BUT it will run longer each cycle.
    I know that with capacitor start AC motors, starting causes most of the heat in the pump, the start winding consumes a lot of power. If you get a DC model, that's not a factor.
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  • ArkansasoffgridArkansasoffgrid Solar Expert Posts: 118 ✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?

    The pump I'm looking for will have nothing to do with the pressure tank. I have a well & pressure tank that will run once a week off a generator to fill a "non-pressurized large plastic storage tank" under the house. I'm looking for a pump to draw water from this plastic storage tank and feed it up to the house.
    8-420AH US Battery L-16s, Midnite Classic 150cc, Whiz Bang Jr, Magnum MS4448PAE inverter/charger,  4590w Canadian Solar panels. Honda EU2000i generator.
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?
    The pump I'm looking for will have nothing to do with the pressure tank. I have a well & pressure tank that will run once a week off a generator to fill a "non-pressurized large plastic storage tank" under the house. I'm looking for a pump to draw water from this plastic storage tank and feed it up to the house.

    The Shurflo and Dankoff pumps I mentioned are to pump from your plastic storage tank and pressurize your house. The pump in your well that pumps to your storage tank does NOT need a pressure tank.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • tmarchtmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?
    Due to terrain issues, the "house-in-construction" is about 250' from well and about 30' to highest water outlet. Plan is to install 1000gal tank under home and only crank the well once a week to fill this tank using temporary pipe/hose since this is all rock terrain. What pump is best suited for the 1000gal storage tank to supply pressurized water to house with max of 25' lift? Possibly 120vac/low amp:confused:

    It would be better to pump to the 1000 gallon tank at ground level or above then draw from that to under the house to a pressure tank to feed the house. You will pump the water up, then let gravity help take it to the pressure tank. Plus a 1000 gallon tank is fairly large to dig a hole for and if something happens to it you would need to replace it under the house.
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925 ✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?

    Does it get below freezing where you live?

    If so, I think it's worth digging a trench. Pulling 250' hose to the tank manually every week, and then draining this big hose, or moving it back to the house to prevent it from freezing, doesn't look like a lot of fun.

    If freezing is not a problem, you can simply lay the water line on the surface, or in a very shallow trench. No need for a tank.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,697 admin
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?

    From his first post--He has very rocky ground in the area and was going to use temporary piping from the well to the (above ground?) tank.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925 ✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?
    BB. wrote: »
    From his first post--He has very rocky ground in the area and was going to use temporary piping from the well to the (above ground?) tank.

    I think he wanted the tank below the ground. He said it was under the house :confused:

    There sure are different degrees of rockiness :D If it's a solid rock it's one thing, if there's a dirt with few rocks here and there it's another.
  • MangasMangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?

    Here's the way I did ours.

    We have two 1,700 Norwesco underground potable water storage tanks with manhole risers plumbed and wired to run simultaneously to pressurize our 500 gallon pressure tank or, if we lose one tank pump, we can run one tank alone to pressurize the tank. To maximize fire prevention and protect the tanks, underground storage and pressure tanks are located 100 feet from the house.

    Each underground tank has a 220 v Goulds 1/2 hp 5 GPM pump/motor with pump guard. Both underground storage tanks are buried with shaded fines. Our rocky soil mandates shading to prevent rock migration which could damage the tanks over time. Money well spent.

    We have a short 1 1/14" buried pipeline from the pressure tank cement block shed to the house. We set up house water shut off ball valves both at the house as well as off the pressure tank. For fire protection, we have a second 2" ball valve teed off the pressure tank to a 2" hydrant with adapters.

    The well is a 1/4 mile away and we run a pipeline to the tanks.

    Given our experience, I do not favor locating a well or storage tanks too near a house for the above reasons.
    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
  • ArkansasoffgridArkansasoffgrid Solar Expert Posts: 118 ✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?

    The low-profile storage tank will be above ground, but under the back of the house which is 5' off the ground. A trench would be somewhere between impractical and impossible with the rocky terrain on my 40 acres.
    8-420AH US Battery L-16s, Midnite Classic 150cc, Whiz Bang Jr, Magnum MS4448PAE inverter/charger,  4590w Canadian Solar panels. Honda EU2000i generator.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,163 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?

    Mangas, can you explain what 'shaded fines' are, at first I thought you might have meant 'screened' fines like we get for brick work.
     
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  • MangasMangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Secondary tank/pump ?

    Westbranch we hauled in a type of fines we get here locally to shade both the underground water storage tanks as well as the water supply pipeline to the house. The fines are a coarse sandy material. Good material but a little pricey. We water settle and compact too.

    Around here, we use the term "shading" to bed an excavated hole/trench with fines material.
    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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