Extreme Off-Grid

ChrisOlson
ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
There's a couple common expressions that come to mind when I see something like this. One would be "money is no object". Another might be "you ain't seen nuthin' yet".

This is just in case anybody has any doubts about livin' large off-grid
http://youtu.be/gmSceBy39OY

Then check this out - this is the house that off-grid system is powering. Yes, backlit marble floors.
http://youtu.be/8tXsg6xr5V0

--
Chris
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  • SkiDoo55
    SkiDoo55 Solar Expert Posts: 414 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    TOO Much Money!!

    Sure is a good show of what the Conext XW system can manage. Be he would liked to have the soon to be available ComBox for this remote access and interface. Nice clean looking installation. Probably have a full time tech on site just to maintain batteries, arrays.

    Nice post
    GT3.8 w/4600W Trina 230W, TX5000 w/5000W ET-250W, XW4024 w/1500W ET-250W, 4 L16, 5500W Gen. (never had to use) Yet!!
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    Quite a different take from my POV. :roll:
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #4
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    Hmm.

    "Piggish consumption" is the phrase that comes to my mind...:p
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid
    SkiDoo55 wrote: »
    Sure is a good show of what the Conext XW system can manage. Be he would liked to have the soon to be available ComBox for this remote access and interface. Nice clean looking installation. Probably have a full time tech on site just to maintain batteries, arrays.

    The way I took it, from the video, and watching another one that's on there about it, it appears that the contractor or installer that put it in must monitor the system from their remote location and maintain it on-site when required. I'm sure they hire out, or have a maintenance contract with the homeowner, to do that. The generator is a Cummins/Onan diesel and is in another room adjacent to the first inverter room shown.
    --
    Chris
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #6
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    For that amount of money they could've designed a system where lights don't blink when switching to/from the generator.

    72kW of inverters? I bet they don't need that much. Or do they have electric heating?
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    Maybe 16 48v traction batteries?

    ...I'm still camping...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    For that amount of money they could've designed a system where lights don't blink when switching to/from the generator.

    72kW of inverters? I bet they don't need that much. Or do they have electric heating?

    I would assume it would be heat pumps for both heating and A/C. To me, that would make the most sense.

    What they have there is a different setup than what we're all familiar with. The inverters work with the generator like we all know, using the internal transfer switches in the inverters. But they also have a roll-over system where if an inverter bank goes offline the generator takes over automatically until the problem is corrected. The blink is the switchgear delay from when the switchgear detects return of normal power, evaluates it for stability, then switches loads from genset back to normal source. This is a break-before-make type switchgear, so you get the blink when it switches. The only time that would ever be used is when there is a problem with one of the inverter banks.

    Cummins Power Generation does build synchronous switchgear that sync's multiple generators or generators with loads and normal power sources before switching. But three of those Power Command synchronous transfer switches would cost more than that entire system.
    --
    Chris
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    I noticed that there was a fairly short start-up and shut/cool down on the gen.

    Conspicuous consumption is my term to describe it. That under floor lighting is a neat effect, discounting the cost..

    Have to believe it could have been better designed for less power requirements and still have WOW factor.

    Brings to mind a guy named ? oh ya, Gore, that was going to tell his wife to use less lights at night to reduce his carbon footprint and save some money
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #10
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    What they have there is a different setup than what we're all familiar with. The inverters work with the generator like we all know, using the internal transfer switches in the inverters. But they also have a roll-over system where if an inverter bank goes offline the generator takes over automatically until the problem is corrected. The blink is the switchgear delay from when the switchgear detects return of normal power, evaluates it for stability, then switches loads from genset back to normal source. This is a break-before-make type switchgear, so you get the blink when it switches. The only time that would ever be used is when there is a problem with one of the inverter banks.

    Nothing blinks when Generac transfer switch returns to grid power. They have huge AC coils that move the switch really quick.

    Having multiple clusters is a good idea, but when one of the clusters goes offline, others must pick up the load and then the generator comes on if needed. When money is of no concern, there shouldn't be any problem with implementing this.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #11
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    When money is of no concern, there shouldn't be any problem with implementing this.

    Well, the Generac does blink and many times hits loads out-of-phase. I've worked with those plenty and I'm familiar with them.

    As in any system design, just because you can do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. You look at it and see we are not running human life support systems or anything. Can we live with a simple break before make transfer switch? Simplicity of design many times has as much virtue as making it complicated with a bunch of features that are hard to maintain in the future and cost more to implement.

    I reality I'll bet my generator management system is a lot more complicated for my tiny system than it is for that large one. The Cummins generator's Power Command controller determines warmup and cool down time - it is a two wire generator. The brief glimpse I got of it another video looked like it is a 100kW 6BT. I would suspect they are simply starting the generator with the AUX contacts in the inverters instead of using AGS. Probably no load management with the generator, Generator Support not being used, etc.. They just threw massive amounts of inverters at it with a big generator.

    If that entire system was gifted to most of us, there's very few of us that could afford to even operate and maintain it long term.
    --
    Chris
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    That is an example of unlimited money, hang the cost.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #13
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    It appears to be a "true fail over system"... I.e., if the AC inverters fail, a separate (independent) generator transfer/control system does the job... That is why you see the light blink on a transfer back.

    If you use the transfer switch in the inverter--then if the inverter electronics failed and/or you wanted to R&R the inverter, you would still need an external transfer/bypass anyway.

    My guess--The system probably was in the $500,000+ range (possibly to $1,000,000). The home/site probably supports that expenditure. Guess 10%+ budgeted for maintenance+replacements over life of system ($50k per year?). Plus fuel (5-10 gallons per hour when operating)???

    Something like a 30 kWatt array and still need some generator use when occupied. One can dream.

    It appears that this may not be a full time residence/occupancy--If you had just enough solar to keep food cool and home from freezing/baking and used generators when occupied--Could probably reduce costs somewhat (use generator(s) more).

    Energy usage is a highly personal choice... Including this home. Racing Cats in SF Bay is probably much more expensive.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #14
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    As in any system design, just because you can do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. You look at it and see we are not running human life support systems or anything.

    If you want to make things better and have money for it, you just do it.

    Xantrex is certainly isn't built for this sort of scale. They built three independent systems which are not really connected and do not really work together. The clients contacted a contractor who does solar and they just did what they got used to do in much smaller scale. The contractor simply didn't want (or couldn't) think outside the box.

    If I were to design such system, I probably would go with SMA Sunny Islands, which let you build a set of interconnected clusters. If one of the clusters fail, the others can pick up the load. This is simplicity and reliability.
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #15
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    Just as a point of reference, this is a picture of a large Outback off grid system install, posted by Tallgirl over on the Outback forums in this thread. It's a 10 stack of VFX3648 inverters. Fed by a 43kW array!

    Attachment not found.

    I suspect there's quite a few wealthy people out there with their luxury off grid doomsteads powered by these kind of systems - we just don't hear about them much here.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #16
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    While it's cool with a lot of "WOW! Factor" I question the viability of any battery-based system over 6 kW in inverter size. If you look at it from a reasonable standpoint, the cost in batteries required to power a single XW6048 for 24 hours at 50% rated capacity is around $30,000. So installers and designers really need to start exploring a different solution when the system exceeds the capabilities of even a single 6000 watt battery-based inverter.
    --
    Chris
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    chris,
    any system over 24hrs is a large battery bank. my magnum even though 1kva rated over 24hrs would kill me in batteries. that bank would be at 12v and would need a rating of 48kwh so that it won't go below 50%. 48000w/12v=4000ah. the bank size is arbitrarily a problem for any system over a 24hr period. as one can see this does cause battery paralleling problems too which was my point to those at midnite solar in upping battery voltages. if my magnum was at 48v it would've simplified the bank and i could've paralleled another string without too much trouble too. autonomy is difficult as things are set up now and yes, imo 6kw or greater over 24hrs gets nutsy even at a 48v battery bank. higher inverter voltages are needed.
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  • H2SO4_guy
    H2SO4_guy Solar Expert Posts: 213 ✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    Exeltech makes a 3 phase 60 kw (20 kw per phase) at 108 volts. If only it was affordable it would be way cool. I have wanted something like that for over a decade, just not willing to pay what they want for everything it takes to get there.
    12K asst panels charging through Midnite Classic 150's, powering Exeltechs and Outback VFX-3648 inverter at 12 and 48 volts.  2080 AH @ 48 VDC of Panasonic Stationary batteries (2 strings of 1040 AH each) purchased for slightly over scrap, installed August 2013.  Outback PSX-240X for 220 volt duties.  No genny usage since 2014. 
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    Could have stacked ten Outback Radians @ 8kW each for 80,000 Watts of power. :D

    Whereas it is technologically interesting, this project really is a microcosm of everything that is wrong with power management these days: never mind conservation, crank up the generation. And then waste it on gimcrackery.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    Here is the home. I looked carefully but can NOT see a PV in sight. Anyone else ?

    http://jerrystubbscurrentprojects.com/2013/02/05/zions-home/
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • brboyer
    brboyer Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭
    #21
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid
    westbranch wrote: »
    Here is the home. I looked carefully but can NOT see a PV in sight. Anyone else ?

    http://jerrystubbscurrentprojects.com/2013/02/05/zions-home/


    Far right in this shot:
    http://jerrystubbsproject.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/zions_121126_4928.jpg
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    ...Ooops looks like they slipped in a shot of the servants quarters, with the stackable washer dryer...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #23
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid
    niel wrote: »
    any system over 24hrs is a large battery bank.

    Our batteries will carry us 24 hours at normal loads, no conservation or change to our normal routine required, with no incoming power. But we only use 25-30 kWh/day and we live pretty darn good here. At least I can't complain. We spent what I felt was reasonable for batteries, but not extravagant.

    The realities of big inverters for off-grid power is that you can only use it if you have enough incoming power to both feed the loads and charge the batteries. If you continue to run that big inverter at wide open throttle after the power quits coming in from the panels, even a big battery bank won't make it from breakfast to lunch time and it's dead.

    So how practical are large off-grid battery based inverter systems? You may as well forget it and run the generator because you're going to be running it anyway, regardless of whether or not you got the big inverter.
    --
    Chris
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #24
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Whereas it is technologically interesting, this project really is a microcosm of everything that is wrong with power management these days: never mind conservation, crank up the generation. And then waste it on gimcrackery.

    'coot - there is roughly 3,300 acres of private land inside the boundary of Zion Ntl Park that was "islanded" when Congress added the Kolob Canyon to it in 1956. It is all without utility power. In recent years there has been some really posh off-grid homes that have spring up on that private land along Kolob Canyon Road. It is like a contest between the Rich and Famous to see who can out-do the other. The home I pointed out in this thread is one of those off-grid homes in the park.

    I think conservation is not a consideration with these projects. That is why I called it "Extreme Off-Grid". It's about as off-grid as it gets because there is no way utility power is ever going to come in there. But that don't mean the people that own property there are going to sacrifice anything. Just turn up the wick.
    --
    Chris
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #25
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Whereas it is technologically interesting, this project really is a microcosm of everything that is wrong with power management these days: never mind conservation, crank up the generation. And then waste it on gimcrackery.

    My feelings exactly.

    Gimcrackery! ha ha -I'm still chuckling about that word. I love it.

    As far as the house. I find it ugly. And despite it's large size - I just can't fathom how they would use all that power. Do they have an aluminum smelting plant in the basement?
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #26
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid
    mtdoc wrote: »
    I find it ugly. - I just can't fathom how they would use all that power.

    Yup. Showed it to the Mrs. After we spent weeks discussion what our objectives were, comfortable, affordable, min footprint, creature comforts (shortest distance to the morning coffee pot), off-grid, maintain view, BLEND INTO THE SURROUNDINGS as much as possible, we had a plan, then started drawing it out. She looked at this Mega Mansion and said flat out , I DON'T LIKE IT!!! It's Ugly!!

    And naturally, I like our project better... windows in 3 more weeks :D

    Coming from Glasgow and growing up in a 3 story Tenement, she now has simpler demands for a simpler life, yet as Chris say, with creature comforts!:cool:

    Too bad that great thread about Generator Support had not been available to them... I'm sure that the contractor would have had fun setting up the algorithms for gen support...:cry:
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #27
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    Here is an article about the area:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54425196-78/park-zion-national-parks.html.csp
    Right now, the land is zoned for one home per 20 acres, meaning owners could erect up to 165 homes, give or take a few. Some subdivided parcels, including the 7-acre lot where a home is rising this summer, predate the county's 1972 plan and don't need 20 acres. All, though, must prove they have good water, which means drilling a successful well.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • newl
    newl Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭✭✭
    #28
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid
    westbranch wrote: »
    DON'T LIKE IT!!! It's Ugly!!

    I agree with your other half.
    BB. wrote: »
    All, though, must prove they have good water, which means drilling a successful well.

    Why not rain water collection?
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  • unicornio
    unicornio Solar Expert Posts: 217 ✭✭
    #29
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid

    Cris!...;-)
    I do not think this is "extreme off-grid", I mean by "extreme off-grid" those who can live with just 1 or 2 kw/h all day and have a refrigerator! ... ;-)
    rather it is "extreme money", "extreme vanity" or "extreme pride" or "ambition excessive for consumer that spending and waste" ...and truth, seeing the house, I do not think it have very good Feng Sui! ...hehehehe
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #30
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid
    unicornio wrote: »
    I do not think this is "extreme off-grid", I mean by "extreme off-grid" those who can live with just 1 or 2 kw/h all day and have a refrigerator! ... ;-)

    I guess I would call that more basic off-grid or a minimalist type lifestyle. I don't see anything wrong with building a nice off-grid system so you can enjoy having things and not having to scrimp on every watt. We did that for too long and it got old after awhile. After about the first five years you start wondering if you're going to keep doing this long term.

    I would've designed that system in Utah differently because I can see just by viewing the video that if the people actually lived in the house full time and use all the "gimcrackery" (Sp?) in the house, that the generator would be running 16 hours a day anyway. I would've set it up to make more efficient use of the generator vs the way I suspect they have it set up now. And there would not be that big Cummins sitting in the power room. Nor would there be 11 inverters hanging on the wall.

    In the first place, the home would've been designed for passive solar heat if I did it.
    --
    Chris
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  • unicornio
    unicornio Solar Expert Posts: 217 ✭✭
    #31
    Re: Extreme Off-Grid
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    "gimcrackery" (Sp?)

    good, Cris! ... (Sp?) means you do not know the translation of this word in Spanish? ... I found no translation, no Internet, nor in my dictionaries collins or webster! ... not know which means ... but hey, at my age I'm used to not being able to know something ...

    the installation is impressive, to all who that are freaks we call our attention ... everyone can do what hi want in this life, this is the first, but just saying it's not my style ... I'd rather have a solar tracker with 1500wp, to put several kwp in static structure ... finally after all is perfect, there are several ways to see it all ...and to make it all...
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