The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

mike95490 · May 2013

http://www.capoliticalreview.com/top-stories/ca-to-see-shocking-electricity-rates-this-summer/

excerpt:

CA to See Shocking Electricity Rates This Summer
May 16, 2013 By Wayne Lusvardi

There have been many forecasts of possible rolling blackouts in California this summer due to a shortage of power from the shutdown of the San Onofre nuclear power plant and the instability of a green power grid due to hourly weather fluctuations.

But the most likely scenario for California for the summer of 2013 is electricity price shock, especially for those moderate-income households that run air conditioners during the hot days in the Central Valley of California.

Article goes on about how the low income consumers are subsidized by higher rates on "regular" consumers (middle class)

There isn’t much that policy makers are doing to lessen rate shock for the most affected. Installing older technology like evaporative “swamp” coolers in older homes could reduce peak month power bills by 80 to 90 percent. At least with a rooftop swamp cooler a homeowner gets both clean, fresh air and low C02 emissions.
But California public policy more promotes contrived solar jobs programs and energy cost shifting onto renters and older homeowners, than helping them to reduce rate shock. And renters in older apartment buildings will mostly be left to bake for the summer of 2013 unless they can install cheaper window air conditioners and isolate themselves in one room.

And then the nifty rate chart: (sorry I could not get the table to come out right - go read the original for a great laugh)

How energy pricing and usage system works in California

Electricity usage rates are approved every three years in California for customers living in areas served by regulated electric utilities, Pacific Gas & Electric, Southern California Edison and San Diego Gas & Electric. Each regulated utility has tiered rates depending on how much power is used in order to conserve power.

But customers in cooler climate zones have lower usage base baselines while those in hotter climate zones have higher usage baselines. By allowing more use of electricity in hotter areas at relatively lower rates, those most affected by hot weather can afford to run their air conditioners more hours each month.

The way the tiered usage system works can be seen in the table below. PG&E customers living in hot Merced in the summer months are allowed to use twice as much power at the same rate as those who live in cooler San Francisco.

How California Sets Rates for Customers of Regulated Electric Power Companies
Tier 1 Baseline Tier 2 Tier 3 Tier 4 Tier 5
Up to baseline 101-130% 131-200% 201-300% 300%>
Rate per kilowatt hour 13 cents 15 cents 30 cents 34 cents 34 cents
San Francisco (cooler) 0 to 225 kilowatt hours 226 to 293 kilowatt hours 294 to 450 kilowatt hours 451 to 675 kilowatt hours 676+ kilowatt hours
Merced (warmer) 0 to 513 kilowatt hours 514 to 667 kilowatt hours 668-1026 kilowatt hours 1027 to 1539 kilowatt hours 1540+ kilowatt hours
Source: Little Hoover Commission, Rewiring California, 2012, p. 40.

Cariboocoot · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

Bill; have you considered moving to Canada? You might just want to now.

And why does this tier pricing system remind me of a game called "Three Card Monty"?

BB. · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

Am seriously thinking about somewhere other than California (my wife is looking at Singapore)--It is teh crazy here--and getting worse. And her family came to the US to get away from exactly this form of oppressive government.

It is getting very close to "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". And we have our government making those determinations.

-Bill

Cariboocoot · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

Yes, several of our governments here have tried that simplistic formula to one extent or another from time to time.

Seems they keep finding out most peoples' "ability" is nil and their "need" is great. :roll:

westbranch · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

What I would be afraid of is (paraphrasing) As goes California, so go the others..... doesn't look/sound/feel good.

BB. · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

There are more than a few residents of other states that are not thrilled when somebody with California plates buys property in their state (to get away from teh crazy)--And then attempts to make their state into New California.

-Bill

solar_dave · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

BB. wrote: »

There are more than a few residents of other states that are not thrilled when somebody with California plates buys property in their state (to get away from teh crazy)--And then attempts to make their state into New California.

-Bill

Back in the housing boom there were tons of house with California plates in the driveway here. They could sell there and buy a house for cash here from the proceeds.

inetdog · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

BB. wrote: »

There are more than a few residents of other states that are not thrilled when somebody with California plates buys property in their state (to get away from teh crazy)--And then attempts to make their state into New California.

Road sign at the southern border of Oregon:
"Welcome to Oregon. Have a good time! Then go home."

And the bumper sticker: "Don't Californicate Oregon"

SkiDoo55 · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

Going to beat the higher rates with another 5000 watts of panel on the roof this summer. Total will be 9600 watts with 2 3800 watt inverters. Pretty much will cover my south/east and south/west facing roof area. New sytem is about half the cost of what it was back in 2010. Should totally Zero me out with and generate a -NET balance. Picked up the new inverter on Earth Day from NAWS, a Schneider Conext TX3800 at a very good price. NAWS was lower than anyone else, and then took an additional 10% off. Great Deal!!

Born and raised in Portland Oregon. Moved to Calif long time ago. Prefer 9 months of dry weather vs: 9 months of rain? Lived in Upstate NY for 18 years on a contract and even got used to the sub-zero temps in the winter. Prefer heat over cold, unless I'm riding snowmobile, then I want it cold.

Just need to get the politicians to do what they are elected and paid to do and it would be a better place all around. Haven't seen that sign on I-5 going north but haven't been to Oregon in awhile.

Organic Farmer · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

I am from California. Many of my friends are still there. Most of my relatives are there.

During my work career, I went back many times to visit. Each time I was shocked at the changes I saw. Mostly I attributed it to the "You can never go back home" effect.

However, after living in so many other places, and owning homes in a few; when it came time for my retirement. There was just no way that I could ever return to that.

Every time I speak with my California resident friends and relatives, it seems to further build my resolve. It amplifies the reasoning for leaving.

I am very happy to have settled here in Maine.

You have my sympathy. I truly do understand.

If you can ever work out the means and opportunity to leave California. I urge you to do it.

There are places that have never seen a drought.

There are places where you can live with very low taxes. If you must take a cut in income, remember there are places where you can support a family with a low income, without government subsidy.

ChrisOlson · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

"There will be affordable energy for the very poor who get subsidies, and for the wealthy who have installed solar panels."

LOL! First time I ever heard that if you have solar panels you're considered "upper class".
--
Chris

BB. · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

Solar panels are very up class in our area... First you have to own a home (no small feat in SF Bay Area).... And then you get a subsidy from the state and feds.

-Bill

ChrisOlson · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

BB. wrote: »

.... And then you get a subsidy from the state and feds.

You get a subsidy for having solar panels? How does that work?

Up here if you install solar panels for grid-tie it costs $2,000 up front for the "privilege" of hooking them up to their grid and $1,000 of that is an inspection by a state inspector. And once you accomplish that they charge an extra $47.50/month "net metering fee", which means they basically get the first 300 kWh you generate with your solar panels every month for free. Anything above the $47.50 "net metering fee" you get to credit on your bill, and you got 12 months to use the credit or they get that for free too.

No subsidies. Only additional costs here.

I've always heard that California is a weird place. I think I seen on TV once that The Terminator was running the outfit there and then he had a woman problem. I guess the whole place went downhill from there. I also heard that they don't even have enough water for all the people there so they pipe that in from someplace else. But they got subsidies for solar panels? As if that's going to make the place sustainable, long term?

This is the movie I saw awhile back about the water thing there:
http://www.calwatercrisis.org/media/ACWA_Crisis.wmv

People need three things to survive; water, food and air. Take away any one of the three and people die. IMHO subsidizing solar panels is not going to fix the real problem.
--
Chris

KnowledgeSponge · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

BB. wrote: »

Am seriously thinking about somewhere other than California (my wife is looking at Singapore)--It is teh crazy here--and getting worse. And her family came to the US to get away from exactly this form of oppressive government.

It is getting very close to "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". And we have our government making those determinations.

-Bill

Everyone I know now calls it "CommieFornia".

Wow Chris. Leave it to Gooberment to take a great thing and make it totally unobtainable or not affordable.

But the "disease" is spreading. Wherever you run, they will follow and destroy that place eventually as well.

How in the world ANYONE thinks TAKING from those who work and create and GIVING it to those who sit on their butts
results in a strong society is beyond me. But, that's exactly what Washington and progressives seem to be successfully doing.

California, Colorado, NewYork, Michigan, Wisconsin are just the early warning indicators of what's coming.

My question would be "How do we stop this CANCER ?

But I digress into the political abyss ...sry

Cariboocoot · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

FYI: discussing political matters that pertain to energy use/conservation and RE is all right as long as it doesn't deteriorate into mud slinging.

We all recognize that for any given problem governments have the most amazing ability to come up with solutions that are completely wrong. This is largely due to the fact the people making the rules have no real understanding of the issue. In the case of energy, the issue is so complex that even people who do understand it disagree about what should be done. Therefor it is highly unlikely that people who do not understand it are going to do the right thing.

Especially as they tend to take direction from "experts" who will directly profit by the action they suggest.

In a perfect world energy policy would be set in much the same way as advice is given in this forum: people with knowledge and experience examining the questions and offering multiple solutions, debating the pros and cons of each, and none of those advisers having any vested interest in the outcome.

Fat chance of that happening.

BB. · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

ChrisOlson wrote: »

You get a subsidy for having solar panels? How does that work?

Up here if you install solar panels for grid-tie it costs $2,000 up front for the "privilege" of hooking them up to their grid and $1,000 of that is an inspection by a state inspector. And once you accomplish that they charge an extra $47.50/month "net metering fee", which means they basically get the first 300 kWh you generate with your solar panels every month for free. Anything above the $47.50 "net metering fee" you get to credit on your bill, and you got 12 months to use the credit or they get that for free too.

Almost 10 years ago, I got ~$5 per Watt check from the state/utility (~$15,000 on a ~$30,000 system--back when it was $10 per Watt system price for GT solar). On what was left, got another 30% Fed tax credit.

Add that we don't pay property taxes on solar power equipment. Add that my net metering fee (meter, billing, etc.) is ~$5 per month for electricty. And I get paid "retail" rates for power I generate (~$0.27 to $0.50 per kWH on summer afternoons--If I was in such a high tiered usage rate for $0.50 per kWH) and get to buy my off peak power at $0.09 per kWH...

Yes, I would say this is a subsidy for the "well off". I am paying $5 a month on my electrical side of the power bill.

No subsidies. Only additional costs here.

There are many additional costs here too--It is just "other people" that are paying those costs.

I've always heard that California is a weird place. I think I seen on TV once that The Terminator was running the outfit there and then he had a woman problem. I guess the whole place went downhill from there. I also heard that they don't even have enough water for all the people there so they pipe that in from someplace else. But they got subsidies for solar panels? As if that's going to make the place sustainable, long term?

It was a shame... The Governator was a pretty good business person (from what I understood). But his private life was a mess and he was married into the Shriver/Kennedy clans which kept him on the left as a Republican (or statist/big government republican). He had a chance to fight--But caved almost immediately to the majority Democratic legislature.

This is the movie I saw awhile back about the water thing there:
http://www.calwatercrisis.org/media/ACWA_Crisis.wmv

California is a pretty arid place and we have cyclic drought conditions. But the powers that be use these known conditions to as a base for "change" (never let a crisis go to waste).

People need three things to survive; water, food and air. Take away any one of the three and people die. IMHO subsidizing solar panels is not going to fix the real problem.

The state and courts are using a non-native/hybrid fish (snail darter) to shut down water supplies to the Central Valley where much of the food is grown. It is getting pretty scary.

Add that many former farmlands (that paid taxes) are being turned into Green Space Trusts are now sadling the governments for maintenance costs that there is no money for (on top of lost tax revenues)--California is not sustainable at this point.

Sadly,
-Bill "what cannot go on, will not go on" B.

Hmm... How does that sound in Latin: "quod non potest non ire"

solar_dave · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

ChrisOlson wrote: »

You get a subsidy for having solar panels? How does that work?

Up here if you install solar panels for grid-tie it costs $2,000 up front for the "privilege" of hooking them up to their grid and $1,000 of that is an inspection by a state inspector. And once you accomplish that they charge an extra $47.50/month "net metering fee", which means they basically get the first 300 kWh you generate with your solar panels every month for free. Anything above the $47.50 "net metering fee" you get to credit on your bill, and you got 12 months to use the credit or they get that for free too.

<snip>

Chris

It was something similar here when I did my grid tie system, The utility was mandated to have so much RE in its portfolio, so the utilities commission allow a small fee be added to every customers bill. The money was used to pay rebates on solar installs, when I did mine it was $3 a watt plus the Fed just opened up the 30% tax credit and the state kicked in another $1000 tax credit. Our install costs then were $6 a watt so by the time the smoke cleared we got a 12.5 KW solar system installed for well under $2 a watt. It would have been closer to $1 a watt but I had to complete replace the service entrance and line to the transformer to meet the code requirements in my city (much tougher than NEC) . Utility was pretty good about the line replacement to the transformer and squeezed it into the existing conduit for about a 60 ft under ground run @ $300 installed, but the service entrance was over $4000 for 400 amp meter box with dual 200 amp panels.

However today the added charge still exists on the power bill but the rebates are down to $0.10 a watt and they are trying to cut it off completely. The utility has also added a lost fixed cost recovery (lfcr).

In May 2012, the Arizona Corporation Commission (ACC) approved new rates for APS. Because more customers are installing renewable energy systems such as solar and wind, and energy efficiency measures such as compact fluorescent light bulbs and refrigerator recycling, APS is selling less electricity, but fixed costs remain. APS is allowed to implement a new charge to recover a portion of the fixed costs.

Just one more sign that completely off grid has its advantages. My problem is my peak summer loads far exceed my daily production and I just can't imagine what kind of battery system these loads would require. Upside to the grid tie, our annual bill has gone from over $5000 to under $300.

ChrisOlson · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

I hear about these things and it makes me glad we decided to not pursue getting grid power in 2001. I think both my wife and I would be scared if we had to move to a place where we were forced to be on it. Even though it seems so reliable it was only three weeks ago that our neighbors came to our place carrying a plastic tub full of their frozen goods from their freezer and asked us if we had room in our freezer so that they could put their stuff in there to keep it from spoiling. Their power had been out for 3 days.

Living in a place like California where there's not even enough water for people is even more scary (to us).
--
Chris

Dave Angelini · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

ChrisOlson wrote: »

Living in a place like California where there's not even enough water for people is even more scary (to us).
--
Chris

Luckily not all of California is like the big city. Go rural Bill, the Sierra foothills have minimal government, 30 + inches of rain, abundant oak fire wood (blue oak woodland), and last but not least, wall to wall sunshine/no fog. Rural is the key! We are looking for a M. Engineer BTW!

BB. · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

Rural sounds good to me... My wife's family, when visiting relatives in the US (decades ago, from Taiwan) were driving up through a typical suburban neighbor hood (SF Peninsula)--Grandmother said--"You did not tell me you live in the country!". My wife was a city girl--but is changing fast.

Everything is relative.

-Bill

mtdoc · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

BB. wrote: »

California is not sustainable at this point.

I would change this to the Industrial Economy is not sustainable at this point (nor was it ever).

-Bill "what cannot go on, will not go on" B.

Yeah - like infinite growth on a finite planet ......:roll:

BB. · May 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

Nor will the ever increasing size of government/programs/taxes and shrinking population (both in raw numbers and employment).

Unfortunately, most government programs (including Social Security and such) are Ponzi schemes. The early benefactors come out ahead, and the later folks are left holding nothing.

One of the recent problems were "over funded" retirement plans and the IRS forcing a reduction in funding levels (via tax policies). Well, during the go-go late 1980's thru 1990's, the high rates of returns made the funds look well funded... Now, with near zero rates of return, these define benefit plans are not looking so hot.

-Bill

Panamretiree · July 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

BB. wrote: »

Am seriously thinking about somewhere other than California (my wife is looking at Singapore)--It is teh crazy here--and getting worse. And her family came to the US to get away from exactly this form of oppressive government.

It is getting very close to "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". And we have our government making those determinations.

-Bill

Bill

The world is getting smaller and smaller because of technology and ease of travel. My wife researched our move to Panama for over five years, not based on politics, but on her disdain for the cold. She looked at health care, political stability, dental, culture, and a whole host of other factors and Panama kept coming up on or near the top. It is also the only country that we have found where you can drink the water directly from the tap, huge bonus. Not to say move here, but research is the key.

We have found the economy here is booming at 10% or so. The new middle class is alive and well and the prices and COL is reflecting this. The government is learning quite quickly how to get more money into its coffers because of this.

The law system down here is based on civil versus common law that puts a new spin on how we view things. People have moved here and have tried to do things themselves without using Panamanian legal services and it costs way more because they do not understand the system and there is a language issue.

It is less expensive to live here, but the cost is going up and the political landscape is following suit. Panamanians here have expressed the same type of disdain for their politicians and political system as we do up north.

There are so many similarities between this country and up north, but with an equal amount of differences.

Living in another country has its challenges. Is there a program that allows you to stay in the country with a permanent resident visa (so you don't have to leave and return every 3 or so months), Panama has several. Is there a reasonable health care program? Can you own land, buy a house, and a host of other considerations.

We use our lawyer for just about everything, can't live with them - can't live without them. My wife has fewer rights down here than up north, but we are working with the system. We found out that if anything were to happen to me without a Panamanian will, Power of Attorney, she gets nothing, the State gets it all - we will be getting this taken care of directly. Our Canadian will does not hold water down here.

We moved for quality of life. The weather is much better for our health. Love getting up in the morning, putting on shorts and t-shirt and having a cup of coffee outside regardless of the month. As for politics, same face just branded and applied differently.

I joked with some friends up north that we had to move because we wanted the warm year round and Trudeau was coming back.

Moving away from where you have lived for many years, leaving friends and family behind is difficult at best, but leaving one's country is another level. Thankfully air travel is plentiful and the world is very small because of this.

We don't know how long we will be here, or if we will move again. I used to think that he who had the most toys at the end wins, but now know that he who has the least regrets at the end wins hands down. For you or anyone else, if you think you should try something, I say do it. The worst case is you return back to the familiar, but you at least did it. When I told my father we were moving to Panama and before that to Victoria to live on a boat, his only advice was to do it sooner than later, because there will come a time when you won't be able to. He also mentioned that if either didn't pan out, what was the worst case, move ashore or back to Canada, no downside in either.

Long rant from a person who doesn't accept or do change easily. JMHO.

Cheers to all

Ernest

BB. · July 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

I agree -- No regrets is a good goal.

At this point, have some aging in-laws and school age kids that are keeping us in the area. What/when/if ever--No idea.

-Bill

NorthGuy · July 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

BB. wrote: »

No regrets is a good goal.

Non, rien de rien, non, je ne regrette de rien,
Ni le bien qu'on m'a fait, ni le mal, tout ca m'est bien egal! :cool:

niel · July 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

keep it in english or give a proper translation as we cannot be expected to moderate words that aren't known.

Cariboocoot · July 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

"I have no regrets about anything I've done, good or bad it is all the same now."

More or less.

BB. · July 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

There are several translations for the song... Here is one (something like seven verses total?):

What's the English translation of the Edith Piaf song "Je Non ..

Edith Piaf
Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien
Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien
Non! Rien de rien ...
Non! Je ne regrette rien
Ni le bien qu'on m'a fait ni le mal
Tout ça m'est bien égal!
...

No! Absolutely nothing...
No! I regret nothing
Neither the good that I've done nor the bad
All this is much the same to me!
...

-Bill

niel · July 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

ok so you guys can read it, but i can't and many others probably can't either so it doesn't hurt for the poster to do this for the benefit of those who can't read it.

NorthGuy · July 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

niel wrote: »

keep it in english or give a proper translation as we cannot be expected to moderate words that aren't known.

That's just an old very popular French song about "no regrets". My French is not that good for proper translation. I don't understad it myself. Most of it anyway.

Here, in Canada, you just have to learn some French. When you go to a store, every box has text in French and in English. Sometimes, when you take a box, no matter how you turn it, you only get the French side, as if the English side is not there at all.

So, you have no other choice than reading French.

jaggedben · July 2013

Re: The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

Gee, the original post is just a repost from a right wing website, of an article with very little real information. It attacks solar as a rich mans game, and yet if you look around California you will see solar everywhere, in the valley and the inland south, not just the wealthier areas. With leasing, any homeowner can go solar if they have good credit. Yawn. I think I will pass on taking the article seriously.

Yes, unlike most states, California has an electrical rate structure that encourages conserving energy. It essentially makes those who use more pay for the necessary peaking power, and has held energy use per capita steady for several decades while it has gone up elsewhere. I'm sure the structure could be tweaked, but on balance I think it's mostly a good thing.

The game's a-changing in California (insanity reigns)

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