Why do this?

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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #32
    Re: Why do this?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Wayne, I think maybe you've taken too many happy pills.
    Or someone has anyway. :p

    Hahahaha Sorry Coot, I just couldn't help myself, just had to do it. :D
    On a more serious note, several of the posters here have related sories so closely matched my situation and experience that it's almost uncanny.
    The pure love and pleasure of producing my own independent power, quietly, smoke and fuel free, is, although expensive, is well worth it to me. And since my initial expectations were so low, it's been a continuing extra pleasure learning as time goes by, all the extra things my system can handle. Things I never initially dreamed it was capable of. just the opposite of those who have unrealistic high expectations. then learn the hard way that their system won't do near what they had thought it capable of.
    If I was much younger there's no question, I'd cut the wires connecting my house to Nova Scotia Power! But alas, the reality of our situations is that as we get older, the time will come when we won't be able to look after ourselves, let alone an off grid system, and there "ain't nobody else gonna do it for me". So I dutifully pay my bi-monthly $26 "base rate" and enjoy what I have while I can.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #33
    Re: Why do this?

    Indeed we do.
    On the retail level Chris's analysis is not true everywhere anymore, even without tax incentives, as rates are astronomical in some areas (just ask Bill about California). But for most places it is still impossible for grid tie to compete with utility, much less off grid.

    But as they jack up rates per kW hour and base fees solar becomes more and more attractive. The latest from APS (in another thread) is just what I'm talking about: $50 a month charge for having a solar install?

    There are several people on this forum who could design a "stealth" GT installation, with no revelation to the utility or sell-back so that it would be completely undetectable other than the near-zero kW hour usage. As of yet such an install is not needed. But it looks like the utilities are trying to make it so. By the time it gets to that an off-grid set-up might be profitable, providing they don't want to charge you for running wires past your house (as some have already declared to be necessary).

    This is also the sort of thing that will drive dangerous guerrilla "plug-n-play" and such installs. The utilities' anti-solar attitude is going to cause a lot of trouble in ways they are not thinking about.

    Cynicism isn't a character flaw; it's a survival trait. And I am very old.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #34
    Re: Why do this?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    By the time it gets to that an off-grid set-up might be profitable

    While it might seem kind of weird in this day and age of rural electrification, roughly 90% of the farms in this area that grow grain and have a grain dryer run on off-grid power during harvest - courtesy of diesel three-phase generators. During the six weeks or so in the fall when the grain handling systems are running around the clock farmers usually totally disconnect the farm from the grid and power their farms with the generator, simply because it's running 24/7 for those six weeks anyway.

    These systems all require three-phase power, and the only farms that can get it from the utility are the ones along the state hiway. The utility offers a 30% break on utility rates for farmers who do this. It saves them having to spend money on poles and wires, and from overloading their system for the businesses and farms they do service with three-phase power at peak load during the fall.

    So I suppose that is an example of how an off-grid power system might be considered profitable. There are vast sections of the country here that are fully equipped for off-grid power. Not off-grid like most people think of it with solar panels and batteries and inverter - off-grid with Cummins and Caterpillar and John Deere.

    Other very large, totally off-grid systems include mining operations and quarries. All of these are off-grid because they are rural and they draw such incredible amounts of power when they are operating that the cost to get adequate utility service to them to power it is impractical.
    --
    Chris
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #35
    Re: Why do this?
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    If you base it all on economics and think you are going to save money by putting in RE power, then the correct answer, to my way of thinking, is "No, you won't".

    But there's other reasons for doing it when you have grid power - the primary being a person wanting to make a statement and show other folks that there is a viable alternative way to do it, and that you can reduce your environmental impact on the earth by choosing to generate your electricity from a clean power source. But, unfortunately, the first thing most people ask is, "how much money will I save".

    There's way too many installers and people in the solar and wind business pushing their wares, mostly to grid-tied folks, on the basis that you're going to save money on your utility bill. Well, of course you will save on the utility bill. But what they fail to tell is that the up-front cost of doing it will typically buy you grid power for longer than the equipment lasts to generate your own. And that's where I'm coming from. People need to be realistic and if their realism is based only on the bottom line - my advice is "forget it".

    Edit:
    Frankly, nothing irks me more than people that don't know us coming to visit our place, seeing what we have, and the first thing out of their mouth is, "I wish could do this and not have an electric bill". It's never, "my gosh - you have a beautiful place here, totally sustainable and independent and I wish I could have that lifestyle". Nope - the first they associate with it is money and how much WE save compared to what THEY spend on grid power.

    Sorry, but that's not how it works. We spend WAAAY more for every kilowatt-hour than they do.
    --
    Chris

    There are others out there that put the environmental impact of solar/wind power vs grid power ahead of individual financial gain. Perhaps not so many in your neck of the woods? However, I agree with what your saying, that the vast majority of people look at just the financial benefit of a renewable system.

    I predict a payback for my off grid system in about 15 years. However that doesn't factor in battery replacement or system maintenance. I view lead acid batteries as the weak link in an off grid setup. I have my fingers crossed that new developments in battery technology will soon change that. It would be ideal if a battery bank would last the life of system, and without the problems lead acid batteries have.

    Another interesting fact is that if I was to finance the total outlay for my system, the interest payments per month would be less than what I was paying for grid power. Again, that doesn't factor in depreciation or battery replacement, but there would be extra money to accumulate and save for that, if that route was taken. In reality, my system was paid for in a much short period and interest didn't really factor in. Of course interest rates can change over time. But so can electric power rates, and they have been going up lately here.

    The primary reason I went off grid is to offset fossil fuel use, by utilities here in Alberta. There is a finite supply of fossil fuels, and burning them spues out pollution and green house gasses. None of that is good!!! ON the other hand, the sun shines on a fairly regular basis, and that power is available everywhere here. It just seems like the right thing to do, to make use of a clean resource, that surrounds us all!

    I think that the future will see more and more solar power plants being built, closer to where the power is actually being consumed, and used in conjunction with local energy storage facilities. But installing solar panels on roofs is not such a bad idea either.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #36
    Re: Why do this?
    northerner wrote: »
    I think that the future will see more and more solar power plants being built, closer to where the power is actually being consumed, and used in conjunction with local energy storage facilities. But installing solar panels on roofs is not such a bad idea either.

    What is the status of the FIT program in Ontario now? I have seen several folks there that have put in the 10kW tracking arrays. I think they are financed by either hydro or the government, the array and equipment is actually owned by the person who put it in, and they get a subsidy that provides them with enough money to make the loan and equipment payments from electricity sales (to hydro) and have it all paid off in about 15 years.

    There was requirements for the equipment - I think it had to be built in Ontario to qualify. Besides private individuals putting in 10kW trackers on the FIT program, up NW of Thunder Bay I also seen a huge solar power plant being built by a commercial developer on the FIT program.
    --
    Chris
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #37
    Re: Why do this?
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    What is the status of the FIT program in Ontario now? I have seen several folks there that have put in the 10kW tracking arrays. I think they are financed by either hydro or the government, the array and equipment is actually owned by the person who put it in, and they get a subsidy that provides them with enough money to make the loan and equipment payments from electricity sales (to hydro) and have it all paid off in about 15 years.

    There was requirements for the equipment - I think it had to be built in Ontario to qualify. Besides private individuals putting in 10kW trackers on the FIT program, up NW of Thunder Bay I also seen a huge solar power plant being built by a commercial developer on the FIT program.
    --
    Chris

    I heard that the FIT program is not as lucrative for individuals putting in their own small scale solar arrays(10 kw or less) in than it used to be. I just checked and there was a correction for the FIT pricing effective January 1st down just over 30% from what it originally was (from 80.2 cents/kwh to 54.9 cents/kwh for solar roof top) Still very good however! Here is a link to the price schedule for FIT in Ontario.

    http://fit.powerauthority.on.ca/fit-program/fit-program-pricing/fit-price-schedule

    The reason I will see a payback in about 15 years is that our electric rates here in northern Alberta are outrageously expensive. We currently pay somewhere between 30 and 45 cents per kwh, depending on usage. It is higher if you use less due to some of the fixed fees. I installed my system, so there was no expensive there, other than my own time. I also view solar off grid as a hobby and learning experience, so my time spent on it is not an issue. I definitely feel it was the right thing to do!
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #38
    Re: Why do this?
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    While it might seem kind of weird in this day and age of rural electrification, roughly 90% of the farms in this area that grow grain and have a grain dryer run on off-grid power during harvest - courtesy of diesel three-phase generators.
    Chris

    Not weird at all. Season high-power usage, so why pay the megabucks to install such capacity if it's only used for a few weeks once a year? You'd have a lot of expensive infrastructure in place doing nothing the rest of the time.

    Not that long ago when it was all done by direct mechanical power. But it's so hard to find a good boiler engineer these days! :D (My uncle Roger was one and it was getting to be rare certification even when he was alive.)
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #39
    Re: Why do this?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Not that long ago when it was all done by direct mechanical power. But it's so hard to find a good boiler engineer these days! :D (My uncle Roger was one and it was getting to be rare certification even when he was alive.)

    There are still a couple sawmills in the area here that are diesel, with the mill and planers being run by a big belt off the engine. But the electric option is more popular with farmers, miners and quarry operations because the equipment can be moved easily when there is a generator supplying the power and electric motors running the equipment.

    And even some of the electric off-grid systems have been around for years. The lime quarry about 40 miles from here has two 1.25 MW Caterpillar generators that power the entire quarry, that I believe they bought in the early 50's sometime. But using grid power to do it is impractical because the equipment has been moved about five miles in the last 10 years and they'd have to completely re-wire utility service every time they moved to a new pit. With their off-grid power system, they simply hook on to the semi trailers that have their generators in them and move them to the new site.

    So it's kind of an example of why even a large business might choose to use off-grid power.
    --
    Chris
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #40
    Re: Why do this?

    Chris, as you might guess such applications are not unusual here in BC where mining and forestry are two big industries. Running power lines through forests and over mountains tends not to be the attractive option. :D
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #41
    Re: Why do this?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Chris, as you might guess such applications are not unusual here in BC where mining and forestry are two big industries. Running power lines through forests and over mountains tends not to be the attractive option. :D

    I get clear heart grade cedar blanks from a mill there in British Columbia to make wind turbine blades out of. I've been to the mill where I get my cedar lumber. And indeed, I don't think I saw a single powerline for the last 80 miles that I drove to that mill :D
    --
    Chris
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #42
    Re: Why do this?

    Power lines and big trees: I live in the foothills of the Olympic mountains surrounded by big Doug Fir, Cedar and Hemlock with some Alder and Big Leaf maple as well. Fortunately the first 5 miles of the road here has power lines underground. The last 1/4 mile to my house is the problem.

    Sometime yesterday, in calm, clear weahter, a 1 foot diameter fir decided to commit Hari-Kiri and take out the line that runs from the utility pole to my service entrance. I didn't realize this until last evening when I took my dog for a walk. I called the utility and they sent a truck out that showed up at midnight and fixed it. Had it been during a winter storm - different story - it might have been a week before it was fixed.

    So why do I do this? Well for me it's a combination of all the things discussed so far;

    Reliable power - despite frequent grid outages.
    Self reliance - and the secure feeling that we can power our home no matter what the grid does now or in the future.
    Clean, yes "green" energy.
    And it's a fun hobby.

    Money has nothing to do with it. . Yes, I have net metering and our utility (for now) offers a generous incentive payment for the power I produce. But at our current cheap (0.065/kwH) rate it will be 30 yrs before the system pays for itself.

    I'm lucky that we're in a financial position to afford to install and maintain this system -even without utility rebates. I think those who question why someone would do this if it doesn't pay for itself are often just trying to justify why they don't do it for themselves.

    If everything someone spent money on had to be justfied by it "paying for itself" then large part of the economy would collapse. All those people driving big SUVs and pick ups in the suburbs, Jewelry, luxury homes, all those weekend warriors spending money on fishing boats, off road vehicles, skiing gear and vacations, expensive gun collections, hunting trips, etc, etc... the list is endless.:roll:

    Add - the other comparison from a "power security" perspective is insurance. How many people go around questioning whether Insurance for your home, car or even life insurance is worthwhile because it is unlikely to "pay for itself"
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  • Panamretiree
    Panamretiree Solar Expert Posts: 278 ✭✭
    #43
    Re: Why do this?
    northerner wrote: »
    I heard that the FIT program is not as lucrative for individuals putting in their own small scale solar arrays(10 kw or less) in than it used to be. I just checked and there was a correction for the FIT pricing effective January 1st down just over 30% from what it originally was (from 80.2 cents/kwh to 54.9 cents/kwh for solar roof top) Still very good however! Here is a link to the price schedule for FIT in Ontario.

    Discussed this with my brother in northern Ontario. He has been told by others that they are making money; however, I told him about the costs and the requirements for the Fit program and he is now of the opinion that it is not as rosy as it is made out to be. My sister is an insurance broker in Barrie, north of Toronto. She has a client that has installed a system under the Fit program. The paperwork to get insurance for this program is just as substantial as what you do for the program. She is also of the opinion that Ontario has transferred liability to Joe public and away from themselves. Ontario also gets to say how green it is going.

    Under the program, the province gets to come in and audit the system and if anything is not IAW, you get 15 days to correct. There is no DIY, you must use accredited installers, the standard panel is 250W, you have to ensure warranty protection, and a multitude of other requirements.

    I also think that people get wrapped up in the cost of installation, operation and maintenance. We want to know what the amortization period is, and the payback time. Maybe another way of looking at this issue is that it is a lifestyle that can be easily budgeted for. No different than making the choice between a BMW SUV or a KIA Soul, both go from point A to B and keep the rain off, or working for Walmart as a "sales associated" - no one is a clerk anymore.

    I submit that RE applications need to be marketed different as we go forward. Why is it necessary to see a payback. No different than putting in an income suite in a house to augment the mortgage and give oneself more disposable income. Most people do not put this type of additional income towards their mortgage, instead choosing to enhance their lifestyle, and there is nothing wrong with this.

    Why should this industry not tug at the heartstrings like the insurance companies targeting seniors and leaving some cash behind for their grandchildren (I thought this was the parent's responsibility), or the save the planet commercials by sending money to help the children of the world (how much really goes to the children - hmmmm). Using RE to supplement or provide all home power requirements is saving the planet for our children and grandchildren, isn't this what some past presidents and their cronies are postulating?

    Just a short rant and a humble opinion.

    Cheers

    Ernest
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #44
    Re: Why do this?
    mtdoc wrote: »
    If everything someone spent money on had to be justfied by it "paying for itself" then large part of the economy would collapse.

    That's true - unless you're really hung up on every dime (most people are), RE systems don't really have to pay for themselves. And different folks have different ideas about what "paying for itself" means. I just happened to look at our System Control Panel and we're running around 6,500 watt load today

    Attachment not found.

    10 years ago I never imagined being able to enjoy the stuff we have today on off-grid power. Sure, our little prime diesel generator is running to be able to support that load, but my monthly fuel cost in the little generator is still less than somebody on grid power is going to pay if they use over 100 kWh/day. But we don't have no loans or monthly payments on it, we got the reliability of off-grid power with about 3 or 4 backup systems, we get most of our energy from sources that never have to refueled, and we're happy with it.

    So despite what all the equipment cost to be able to do it, it's all bought and paid for. So what if I got a $150 diesel fuel bill in the little generator by the end of the month. That's one heck of a lot better than the $450 bill somebody on grid power is going to pay to use the same amount of electricity.

    The really hard part is shelling out the cash to buy the equipment. After you own it and it starts producing power for you, you tend to gain a whole new perspective.
    --
    Chris
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #45
    Re: Why do this?

    I sort of look at things like it is expessed in part of chris's answer. I have nothing installed but what I have is paid for. I only had about a $80 dollar electric bill for 9 months of the year. I think I will have $17000 to $20000 in it when I finally get my stuff installed depending partly on which battery I buy. It will never pay for its self. Barring breakdowns I will have no payments on whatever it produces.

    The opposite portion of this situation is that I keep finding things I want to add which cost money. There are manythings that when I started I didn't know I needed but had to have. Also I keep wanting to add even more panels so my charge controllers are maxed out. I still can't cover everything I power now.

    I have a feeling that one of two things will happen. I will either get tired of it and quit taking care of it or I will be buying and adding stuff forever. Under these conditions one has to consider it a hoby and expensive play for independence.

    My payments may never end but as much as it cost it is payed for so far.

    Oh yea, my wife thinks I am stupid when things don't work or we could live with out it and get things she likes.

    Cheers
    gww
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #46
    Re: Why do this?

    Why Do This?
    I started, wanting to support emerging technology, and purchased a single solar panel and a couple golf cart batteries(with some supplemental charging) When I took a trip to the Ozarks for a few months back in the early 90's. it worked out fine, and I learned some things.

    When I got back to Florida, I rented some space in a warehouse area, and used the original panel and a couple used panels I purchased to provide lighting and a fan. It again worked out fine and I even lived there for about 4 months, with little else.

    I put things in storage and went on a bicycle trip and ended up in Missouri. I had the original panel and one of the other 2 used panels and purchased a couple acres to 'fool around with' I decided to build an 'A' frame, so I build a shed to live in while working on the 'A' frame and setup the 2 panels and 3 - 25 year old panels. I had intended to hook up to the grid in time, but it would require a 1 or 2 extra poles and some expense running the power to the site. I had plenty of power for my needs and it was more cost effective than trying to install power. I used battery power tools and charged from a MSW charger. This project went fine, until I was robbed of nearly every thing on the site. They left the solar array and batteries!

    Being frustrated and having just purchased a lot in a camping community where it was fine to put up cabins. I moved my array there and sold the 90% framed up 'A' frame and shed for less than I had invested in the property and wood!

    The small 200 watt array and a couple golf cart batteries fit my needs for 5 years or so, local COOP wanted $15 a month user fee and this went up to $25 during this period. So again it was cost effective for my needs. I purchased a lot with better exposure for solar and built a cabin in the shade with thick walls, so I could air condition the place with minimal solar. I had a payback time of about 8-12 years. Depending on the type and size of battery bank I used. I choose to have a large bank anticipating that I would remain there for quite a while. I had purchased the forklift battery just a few months before they changed the covenants such that I could no longer work there.

    At this point I purchased a couple acres with a 'modular' home on it, and since I had the large battery(though small for this application) I actually made sense to go ahead and put in an array. Since my biggest usage period is in the summer when we have abundant sun when we have a need for air conditioning. It works out to about 26 cents a Kwh, since I'm a minimal user and the local cost of current with the high user fees runs about 20 cents a Kwh, it is a bit more expensive. Since I already had the battery it wasn't too bad of an expense, and a battery of this type would be a hard sell for any reasonable amount. I'll run the numbers some day on what my costs are with the 30% tax incentive, and with and with out a the battery(without only being important in figuring out my cost comparisons. Of course there is the wood heater I need to install with a cost of about $1000 total, and I guess the cost of wood, though I enjoy that chore.

    If it was setup from scratch, and you didn't find inexpensive pieces (4Kw at @ 85 cents a watt delivered, 2.6 Kw of panels at 26 cents a watt, E-panel $200, did the framing and installation, making the aluminum mounting brackets, etc.), it would have cost and been much more expensive, but my system(s) have been grown. I've done this on a reasonably small income and time and it's mostly been a joy. If energy prices continue to climb and/or we have some emerging battery technology, or even if my electronics hold out for 20+ years and/or the forklift battery makes it for 25-30 years(as some have reported) it may make some sense in costs, but you would have to disregard my time and energy put into finding, building and maintaining the system.

    One thing that has just been skipped over mostly in the 'why' is that I know the 'cost' of energy. I don't blindly leave the lights on, or door open with the air conditioner running, or leave the fridge door open. I do have some limits on my draw as I have a minimal inverter. So I have to plan somewhat on what I'm running at one time, so I think about running the hot water heater and microwave at the same time. This, to me is a plus. I recently was back on the grid and didn't change my conservation habits. I still batch produced hot water and turned everything off when leaving the house.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #47
    Re: Why do this?
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    It can depend on where you live too. In our area a single 250 watt solar panel produces about 160 kWh per year - obviously more in summer and close to nothing in winter. You'll pay at least $300 for a good quality 250 watt panel. With grid power at 15 cents/kWh it takes 12.5 years to recover the cost of just that one panel in electricity it produces. And that does not include cost of wiring, controllers or inverter, or fixed charges that are imposed to sell back to the utility.
    Of course, in larger systems economies of scale come into play and a ROI schedule that has a zero crossing 12 to 15 years out is not necessarily a problem for entities willing to take the long view. The numbers for commercial systems run differently than those for residential systems; I haven't been in the residential market for 2-3 years. But your point is well taken; to anyone considering solar, whether it be commercial or residential, local conditions both physical and economic are very important considerations.
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  • KnowledgeSponge
    KnowledgeSponge Solar Expert Posts: 173 ✭✭✭
    #48
    Re: Why do this?

    All bets are off if the grid goes down. Then, if you HAVE solar power available, the cost is no longer relevant.
    People spend as much or more over a few years on cable TV, sports packages and flashy cars etc. I see it as "Priorities" in a way.
    Plus learning to be as independent on society as possible as a whole is a good thing in these times imo.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #49
    Re: Why do this?
    KnowledgeSponge wrote: »
    All bets are off if the grid goes down. Then, if you HAVE solar power available, the cost is no longer relevant.

    Right. So you have to judge how often and for how long the grid goes down where you are. Around here it isn't worth thinking about.
    People spend as much or more over a few years on cable TV, sports packages and flashy cars etc. I see it as "Priorities" in a way.

    They do indeed. Sometimes. I mean not me. My '98 4Runner has 329,000 miles on it and sure couldn't be considered "flashy"; the chrome doesn't even shine. I consider it a priority that it goes where I need to get. :D
    Plus learning to be as independent on society as possible as a whole is a good thing in these times imo.

    Yes. Many people could benefit from learning how to live on low power and understanding the issues with solar in general. In fact that describes society as a whole. And the power companies as well. If some people didn't spend "too much" on solar there would have been no advances in the field and I'd still be using a generator at the cabin or that wretched screaming Alpha 1 inverter or something instead of the wonderful Outback system I do have. Even that would now cost less money than in 2008 and produce more power.

    Pioneers are needed to blaze trails. Whether or not anyone follows will be determined only after the trails are there.
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  • MarkP
    MarkP Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭
    #50
    Re: Why do this?

    I live in Hawaii and our electricity cost is the highest in the nation, something like $0.40/kwh or more and that's on Oahu. On the Big Island of Hawaii it's even more expensive. I have a condo on Oahu and a small plot of undeveloped land on the Big Island. When that subdivision was formed there was something called a Special Subdivision Power Plan (SSPP) put in place. I have never really educated myself about how it works but it basically spreads the cost of the power infrastructure around so that the first few builders don't get totally crushed by the cost. The flip side is that now that there are power lines in front of my property, I must pay off the SSPP cost of about $3,000 for my property, to sort of buy in to the deal. To get hooked up to even temporary power which is more expensive I must have plans and permits pulled. Now keep in mind that these are 1-acre parcels of lava rock that is supposedly ag land. The original developers had to put in roads but because it was only Puna (the slummy part of Hawaii on the slopes of an active volcano) they figured nobody would try to live there. The roads are often unpaved and too narrow. Also they made some of the lots ridiculously long and skinny so that they could put in fewer roads.

    Fast forward to the Puna of today, frequented by all sorts of free spirits and misfits. I once saw someone at the McDonalds in Kea'au with a goat on a leash. Young people of all walks of life sporting dreadlocks and the occasional didgeridoo are not uncommon whereas actual fully permitted houses are uncommon. How eager do you suppose I am to ante up $3,000 for the privilege of paying the highest costs in the nation for power? So far I have spent about that much on my solar system and it is meeting my needs more or less. The rest is gravy.


    I almost forgot the point of my original post. The lack of infrastructure usually includes not having county water, so most households in Puna catch rain off of the roof and store it in a large catchment tank of anywhere from 5,000 to 20,000 gallons capacity. Most simple houses have a tank of less than 10,000 gallons capacity. Right now I am making do with a tote of 275 gallons capacity but I will eventually install a tank of at least 10,000 gallons and much more if I can afford it. Why, if I have actually been able to struggle along with the miniscule tank I have now? Because I have been extremely lucky so far and sometimes I go without a shower while I am there. Many people rationalize a small tank because it only costs a couple of hundred dollars to get a few thousand gallons of water trucked in if they need it. True. When amortized over a couple of decades, the cost of buying the water a handful of times is not significant. However, you should hear how frantic these same people get when their tank is getting low and low and behold there is a waiting list because, being a drought and all, the tanker folks are busy. Suddenly they realize that they are at the mercy of others and it is not all about dollars and cents.
    15 Panels (about 3,000 watts), Schneider Conext 60-150 MPPT Charge Controller, Schneider Conext 4048 Inverter, 8 x 6-volt Costco GC-2 Batteries.
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