battery short curcuit! Oh no!

Jason
Jason Registered Users Posts: 2
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
so during installation of my sun xtender 12212 a wrench briefly short curcuited between the battery terminals!!! big time arcing, i knocked the wrench away with a wooden handle quickly but i fear the damage has been done. now when connected to the charge controller it is making a humming sound! is the battery toast? or just deeply discharged. is it a fire hazard?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: battery short curcuit! Oh no!

    Welcome to the forum.

    Well that's not a good way to start things off! :cry:

    Did you check the battery's Voltage after the accident? You should be able to get a resting Voltage reading which will be a fair indication of how badly discharged it got. If you're lucky that's all that happened: sudden, deep discharge. AGM's can usually take higher current than FLA's, but no battery is happy about being shorted. The other thing you want to look at is how much current is being drawn when you try to charge it. Low resting Voltage (under 12 or worse under 10) and high current draw could indicate one or more cells has been drain to the point of polarity reversal. If that has happened it is toast.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: battery short curcuit! Oh no!

    is the battery humming or the controller?
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  • Desert Rat
    Desert Rat Solar Expert Posts: 147 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!

    A wrench that can possibly short between two terminals should not be allowed anywhere near a battery. I keep an insulated wrench in my battery enclosure for the monthly battery check, and make sure to supply such a wrench to the end user at any new system I install.
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  • Thom
    Thom Solar Expert Posts: 196 ✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!
    Desert Rat wrote: »
    A wrench that can possibly short between two terminals should not be allowed anywhere near a battery. I keep an insulated wrench in my battery enclosure for the monthly battery check, and make sure to supply such a wrench to the end user at any new system I install.

    Wow !! Most of my customers wouldn't know what to do with a wrench ! If they did I wouldn't want to know :0)
    Off grid since 1984. 430w of panel, 300w suresine , 4 gc batteries 12v system, Rogue mpt3024 charge controller , air breeze windmill, Mikita 2400w generator . Added 2@ 100w panel with a midnight brat 
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  • unicornio
    unicornio Solar Expert Posts: 217 ✭✭
    #6
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!
    Desert Rat wrote: »
    A wrench that can possibly short between two terminals should not be allowed anywhere near a battery. I keep an insulated wrench in my battery enclosure for the monthly battery check, and make sure to supply such a wrench to the end user at any new system I install.

    a battery is a bomb, and you have to work with it in the same way (and with the same care) that if it were nitroglycerin ...hehehe
    the worse, if you make a short circuit with a wrench, may be the wrench can stay "welded" making a short, and then, the only solution is to run away from there as quickly as possible ... and wait to see (from a distance) what happens!!! ... ;-) (sure, it would not be nothing good)

    I have seen keys melted and destroyed by a battery ...so I agree that the wrench that are used with batteries must be completely isolated ...
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  • Jason
    Jason Registered Users Posts: 2
    #7
    Re: battery short curcuit! Oh no!

    Well thankfully the battery tests to 13.2 v but there does seem to be a bit of a humming sound from the 10a breaker between the module (KD140) and the charge controller. Something to be concerned about?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: battery short curcuit! Oh no!
    Jason wrote: »
    Well thankfully the battery tests to 13.2 v but there does seem to be a bit of a humming sound from the 10a breaker between the module (KD140) and the charge controller. Something to be concerned about?

    If you have only one KD140 you don't even need the breaker. Sometimes they do make noise.
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!
    Desert Rat wrote: »
    I keep an insulated wrench in my battery enclosure for the monthly battery check, and make sure to supply such a wrench to the end user at any new system I install.

    Two questions:

    Why do you need a wrench for a monthly check? I wouldn't pull out my wrench unless I was seeing a voltage drop across a battery connection.

    My wrench is insulated with electrical tape... is that safe and effective, or is yours a commercially made insulated wrench?

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: battery short curcuit! Oh no!

    When working with tools around batteries, except for the terminal I'm working on, I always cover the batteries with towels etc, that way if something gets dropped, the connections are not available for contact. I learned the hard way early on, that no matter how careful I am, I WILL drop that tool. Thankfully in my case, although there were huge sparks, for some strange reason the batteries stayed in one piece with the acid still inside.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Why do you need a wrench for a monthly check?

    Admit to having the same question? I guess I'm doing something wrong. in my 10+ years of being off grid, I haven't used a wrench on a monthly basis, heck, I'll admit I rarely check the battery connections at all, unless I have some odd behavior or see oxidation/corrosion.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!

    Years ago, I blew a Truck battery up in my face by shortingn between the positive and the hood! Miraculously neither of us was hurt. Lesson learned!

    Tony
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!
    icarus wrote: »
    Years ago, I blew a Truck battery up in my face by shorting between the positive and the hood! Miraculously neither of us was hurt. Lesson learned!

    Tony

    Neighbor of mine had a car battery blow up in his face one time too. He was working around the engine, but he wouldn't tell us how it happened.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!
    icarus wrote: »
    Years ago, I blew a Truck battery up in my face by shortingn between the positive and the hood! Miraculously neither of us was hurt. Lesson learned!
    Rule of thumb: I never put a wrench on the positive battery terminal or any unfused connection point unless the negative battery terminal is disconnected from the system. Sometimes lessons must be learned the hard way and mine was no exception.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!

    I had an old 6 Volt propane High low battery explode in my face at work one time. It was pretty spectacular, disconnecting a charger with clamp on connectors and there was hydrogen about. Glad the sink was close by and I could get my whole head under the spray. Made a nice booming sound and everyone came a running.
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  • zoneblue
    zoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!

    Ok fishing stories. I once worked in a battery bay doing routine servicing on aircraft flooded NiCads. You think AGMs have low internal resistance you should see these things, milspec stuff. We had this big new fancy pulse mode charge discharge station. It would charge for about a second at 400 amps, then partly discharge a bit, then repeat. Full charge cycle, discharge, then recharge automatically. It was id say half a tonne of gear.

    Anyway, on at least two occasions i was in the next room, and some new (or not so new) guy managed to short one of these banks, with a spanner. The tape on the wrench gets knocked one too many times. I forget the specs on the banks, was 12 volts in 10 cells. Cells were 500 dollars each, and that was 30 years ago. Anyway I could see the station through the door. You kind of felt it first the floor would like heave, then a fireball would fill half the bay. You get the same hydrogen rich environment surrounding nicads as you do FLA. remarkably no one was ever hurt. Those were the days.
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!

    OK, war stories... So I'm driving down the road in town and see a guy walking along carrying a car battery. I asked if he needed a lift, said yes my car has a dead battery down the road. So I get him there and he has no tools, and in an odd situation I don't either (one day I lent a stud detector and a level out of my little Toyota echo). I asked him how he was going to install the battery, he said he wasn't and proceeded to flip the flooded battery over and push the terminals together, big bang... since moving to Missouri I've seen this done successfully a couple times. I always make it a point to be well away, after offering the jumper cables out of my trunk.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!

    The problem with modern vehicles is often times you don't wish to disconnect the battery because of the head aches involved in the electronics. From radio programming to ECUs, to a whole myriad of stuff that needs to be attended to to get back up. I confess I work on vehicles with the battery disconnected and have been lucky. One ought not do it. It would be nice if they build in enog flash memory on things so that they could remember thier programming for a long time without power.

    Tny
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  • Desert Rat
    Desert Rat Solar Expert Posts: 147 ✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Two questions:

    Why do you need a wrench for a monthly check? I wouldn't pull out my wrench unless I was seeing a voltage drop across a battery connection.

    My wrench is insulated with electrical tape... is that safe and effective, or is yours a commercially made insulated wrench?

    --vtMaps

    I check the batteries once a month for water level and tightness of the terminal nuts. I am ALWAYS able to tighten the connections a little, and I'm not talking about tightening the sh*t out of them.
    Electrical tape should be fine as long as it is intact. My wrench is homemade using heavy heat shrink tubing.
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #20
    Re: battery short curcuit! Oh no!
    OK, war stories...

    We used to check the altinator by unhooking the battery with the car running. Only once did the battery blow up on my uncle. I got me a good pair of designer coveralls out of the deal. They looked like they had been hung on a fence and shot with a shotgun many times. I wore them for years.
    gww
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!
    Desert Rat wrote: »
    Electrical tape should be fine as long as it is intact. My wrench is homemade using heavy heat shrink tubing.
    You can also get cans of a conformal insulating coating that you can paint onto a tool or dip them into. Expensive, but nice looking and provides a good grip too. And in a variety of colors (red or black).
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: battery short circuit! Oh no!
    inetdog wrote: »
    You can also get cans of a conformal insulating coating that you can paint onto a tool or dip them into. Expensive, but nice looking and provides a good grip too. And in a variety of colors (red or black).

    Also good for repairing any nicks in solar panel backing, my 30 year old panels have a good bit on them...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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