desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

AZJEN · June 2013

Ok,

Sister inherited 40 acre ranch in desert in AZ. Has solar panels generator inverter house with batteries.(wanna say system is like 12years old??? not regularly inhabited for the last 4 years, just on and off)
Family members moved in few months back...
First few weeks everything was ok...then...

First generator was giving us problems, wouldnt run for long and would shut itself off... had it looked at and "fixed"

things ran ok for awhile

Then even with generator running, was not getting power into the house.

Then inverter (trace sw4024) started shutting itself off....

replaced 4 of the batteries...(was a gift, same kind as the ones that were in there)

no help...

the common buzz that came from the inverter/battery house is no longer heard.... The inverter turns itself on, then the screen goes blank, red error light and its off again.

we have no idea what we are doing and are having problems finding someone who does...

sister keeps trying to push buttons all the time and what not.... NEED HELP FROM SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!! PLEASE!!! No Power no water for 2 weeks now!!!

Cariboocoot · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

Welcome to the forum.

You definitely have a problem there. Possibly several. One that jumps out is "Trace SW 4024". A great inverter in its day, but your estimated age of 12 years is not unrealistic and there is every possibility the inverter has just plain failed.

If it hadn't, then with the gen running that should automatically pick up the AC loads from the inverter and start charging the battery bank.

We can try and diagnose the exact trouble "by remote control" but without someone who is tech savvy at the other end it will be really difficult. These systems are not simple, and the first step is to know everything that is installed (specifications on panels, charge controller, batteries, and even wiring) and how it was designed in the first place. Sometimes even that is wrong.

One thing you will really need is a digital mutlimeter (DMM) so you can take AC and DC Voltage readings at the appropriate places to see if things are active.

Another thing you will need to do (from the sound of the situation) is bypass the inverter's AC so that the pump (and other loads) can be run directly from the generator. If you are unfamiliar with or scared of electricity this can be daunting.

AZJEN · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

thanks for responding...

is it possible to bypass the inverters AC(?) on our own?

and will this run the house and well directly just without the use of the inverter , until we can resolve the issue?

im sure i can figure out all the info about the panels and batteries ect...

do you know where i can go to find good help for this?

NorthGuy · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

AZJEN wrote: »

is it possible to bypass the inverters AC(?) on our own?

There should (may?) be a bypass switch, which would let you connect generator directly to the loads. You may be able to find it. Just follow the wires.

First, you need to look for simple things, such as tripped breakers, some burnt things etc.

If that doesn't help, you need to start measure voltages etc. If you don't feel comfortale doing that, it would be good to find an original installer. If not, any solar installer should be able to help. If there's no solar installers, try electricians.

Cariboocoot · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

AZJEN wrote: »

thanks for responding...

is it possible to bypass the inverters AC(?) on our own?

If it was wired correctly to begin with, yes. If the gen output is 220/240 instead of 120 there may be different wiring, so check the output Voltage first.

The AC IN on the inverter should have one black and one white wire. The AC OUT on the inverter likewise. Disconnect the two wire pairs and twist them together with wire nuts - black to black, white to white. Make sure there is a fuse or breaker on the gen output (could be built in to the generator). Fire up the gen, check for proper AC Voltage at outlets before connecting/turning on any loads.

and will this run the house and well directly just without the use of the inverter , until we can resolve the issue?

As long as the generator runs you should have normal household electric. You may find it necessary to cycle things like refrigerator or freezer separately: much will depend on the generator's capacity (in Watts) versus the load demands (in Watts). If you overload it and the circuit is protected the fuse/breaker will go, not the generator.

im sure i can figure out all the info about the panels and batteries ect...

do you know where i can go to find good help for this?

Probably someone closer than Canada?

Come on, forum members: I know some of you live in AZ. Got any recommendations for electricians/installers?

BB. · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

Be careful with bypass switches... Some installations (not really to code) can short the AC output of the inverter to the AC output of the generator if the wrong switches are thrown--And you will have some very unhappy equipment.

-Bill

Cariboocoot · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

BB. wrote: »

Be careful with bypass switches... Some installations (not really to code) can short the AC output of the inverter to the AC output of the generator if the wrong switches are thrown--And you will have some very unhappy equipment.

-Bill

Which is why if you bypass the inverter's built-in transfer switch you do it by removing the wires from In and OUT and connecting them together independent of anything else.

As always, the devil is in the (wiring) details.

AZJEN · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

ok,
so...

check the gens output....

look for the black and white wire pairs, disconnect from inverter and connect like color wires together...

fuse or breaker on generator output... where on the generator should i try to locate that?(sorry, not out there at the moment and no internet there to continue at site)

how do I check for proper AC Voltage at outlets?

how do I connect/turn on any loads?

again, sorry im no idiot, but Im VERY new to this.... and want as much proper information before I even make an attempt.

AZJEN · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

we've contacted the original installer and are just waiting/hoping to hear back from him.

in the meantime there are 2 people with 5 animals sitting in the dark with no running water.... so if I can get them ANY sort of temporary solution while we focus on the bigger picture Id like to do my damnedest!!! lol

you guys are great by the way

mike95490 · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

And you need to service the generator, check/change the oil, add gasoline or diesel, coolant.... All that stuff.

AZJEN · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

I believe they did service the generator.... it runs on propane... oil was good.
We had like 4 different guys take a peek at it when it wasn't running properly .... turned out to be a disconnected wire i guess lol .... HENCE, Ive come here :P

solar_dave · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

AZJEN I am down in the Phoenix, while not a big off grid guy I could come out and take a look if you like maybe next weekend. Exactly where are you located as AZ is a big place. At least we could get a diagram going and start some feed back here. Do you have a hydrometer?

Of course I would be doing this gratias. Could you take a few snapshots of the equipment and post them here?

Volvo Farmer · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

My neighbors had an old PS2524 that wouldn't pick up the generator anymore. I think the inverter side was still working though. Anyway, it ended up in my hands and I found a burned trace on the relay board that lives over on the left side where all the power comes in and out. That big toroidial coil had gotten pretty warm and the failure was somewhere around the bottom of that thing. I soldered it back up enough to use it as a battery charger for my little 1000 watt pre-inverter Honda generator. Still, I have to go and rap on it once in a while to get the relay to click in and start charging. Parts for these old Trace inverters are completely NLA, so if your problem ends up being inside the inverter, it's probably replacement time.

ChrisOlson · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

For anybody that has a problem with an older Trace SW/SW+ or DR-series, contact this guy using his web form on his site:
http://www.phantompowerservices.com/

He'll get it working again.
--
Chris

Cariboocoot · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

AZJEN wrote: »

ok,
so...

check the gens output....

look for the black and white wire pairs, disconnect from inverter and connect like color wires together...

fuse or breaker on generator output... where on the generator should i try to locate that?(sorry, not out there at the moment and no internet there to continue at site)

What the generator is exactly will be a big help. There's thousands of different ones. Post a picture if you can.

how do I check for proper AC Voltage at outlets?

This is one thing you need the digital multimeter for. With everything unplugged/turned off you probe an outlet and hopefully get a reading around 120 VAC.

how do I connect/turn on any loads?

Unplug everything plugged in, turn off anything hard-wired (no plug like overhead lights), switch off breakers/fuses to things like the waterpump that have neither plug nor switch.

again, sorry im no idiot, but Im VERY new to this.... and want as much proper information before I even make an attempt.

No, you're not an idiot. 99% of the world's population does not have a degree in electrical engineering and you just about need one to cope with this stuff.

BB. · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

Many of the folks here started by building their present systems... So, they learned by doing.

Trying to fix an existing system can be very difficult, even with somebody that has experience. There are just so many variations out there that we are hesitant to suggest much other than:

1) disconnect the genset and get it running.
2) find the "main panel", disconnect the rest of the system, wire the genset to the main panel (120, 240 VAC? Any grounding of neutral, etc.?).
3) Figure out how to get the batteries charging--Batteries that set around for days/weeks/months not being kept charged will die pretty quickly
4) Now start working on the off grid system/inverter/battery bank/etc.

In general, electronics (including AC Inverters, solar charge controllers, etc.) are almost always better to replace if 10+ years old rather than repair (sometimes repairs can be made and you will get more years out of system--but is hard to know).

-Bill

Cariboocoot · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

BB. wrote: »

In general, electronics (including AC Inverters, solar charge controllers, etc.) are almost always better to replace if 10+ years old rather than repair (sometimes repairs can be made and you will get more years out of system--but is hard to know).

-Bill

I agree. If the SW is broken there's no point in fixing it because it is aged and likely to break again sooner rather than later. Fifty years of fixing stuff tells me this is an absolute.

BB. · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

And to add---Don't spend a lot of money repairing inverters/charge controllers (if you or a friend can fix it on the cheap--why not try)... It is very easy to spend 50% of the cost of a new one by the time labor/parts/round trip shipping is taken into account (and even one way shipping/minimum charges can be an issue, the unit may not be repairable).

-Bill

AZJEN · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

original installer made contact today...met my sister out there.... waiting to hear word.... when I have more details and information ill post.

gww1 · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

Solar dave
That was a very nice offer you made.
gww

solar_dave · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

gww1 wrote: »

Solar dave
That was a very nice offer you made.
gww

Hopefully they get it straightened out, I suspect it won't be cheap or easy.

YehoshuaAgapao · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Probably someone closer than Canada?

Come on, forum members: I know some of you live in AZ. Got any recommendations for electricians/installers?

James Crutchfield installed my system. He is not very experienced with solar (4 grid tie systems plus my system; my system was his first battery based system), but he's a great electrician. He installed my system but I know way more about the off-grid aspects of it than he does (battery bank). But he definitely would be able to diagnosed wiring problems, breaker problems and a busted inverter. Jame's number is 480-751-9757. There is also dependable solar. The only established solar installer that knows off-grid and mixed-grid (bi-modal). James will be better at the electrical and will be cheaper. James will be better with the generator if it has its own transfer switch (otherwise just the electrical aspects of it). Dependable solar will know more about the PV, charge controllers, non-electrical aspects of the inverter, and the battery bank and interaction between off-grid/bi-modal components. They will probably be equal in diagnosing the electrical aspects of the inverter.

ChrisOlson · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

Cariboocoot wrote: »

I agree. If the SW is broken there's no point in fixing it because it is aged and likely to break again sooner rather than later. Fifty years of fixing stuff tells me this is an absolute.

While it is an absolute that it will eventually break again, those SW's are pretty tough and rugged inverters. There's many of them that have been running since they were first invented, which I believe was around 20 years ago. If it's just got a bad FET board parts are still available and it's cheaper to fix it than replace it. If the processor/control board is bad, parts are harder to find but the guy I linked to above can probably fix it cheaper than replacing it. If one the three transformers are blown, then you should be looking for a different inverter.

There's other things that can go wrong - bad relays and such. But that's all easy to fix. The reliability record of the SW-series is such that if it needs repair, and is repaired, chances are very good it will run another 10 years. If it was a cheap "throw-away" unit, then it would be different. But the SW's were designed and built to be serviced if something goes wrong. The main problem nowadays is finding parts. But the guy I linked to originally worked for Trace Engineering and he knows what's going on with those inverters.
--
Chris

Cariboocoot · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

I know of a couple of guys who worked with Trace too.
For people who don't like mucking about and running the risk of repeat failure, replacement is the only sensible thing to do. As time goes by it will become harder and harder to find those replacement parts. Upgrading to a new inverter that should have ten years of factor support available is better than trying to save a couple of bucks by repairing something that is already obsolete.

I was good in my day too, but recognize that I am well out of warranty and there's no such thing as replacement parts. When I fail completely I will definitely be replaced. Hopefully the new model will be as good, maybe better.

AZJEN · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

ok, so original installer came out.... I guess a few years back my sister had bought new batteries and had a guy hook them up. Apparently he did not hook them up properly...and they finally went kapoot... hence the inverter issues. He also said not to run the generator, because from the sound of it something needs attention within it. Also there is a cracked pipe coming from the well that needs to be fixed, so given the low amount of batteries and the leak they are living without the well for now, but hauling water in for the animals and what not....He has the girls living off the 4 new batteries while he works with them to replace the other 8 and to get the gen fixed... getting them a great deal on the batteries like only 100$ a pop. they just paid almost 800$ for the 4 new ones, so thats a pretty sweet deal.

In short, the inverter is still in working order, thank god!
and from the sound of it, with the new batteries the fixed pipe and the generator getting worked on a bit, they should be up and in good running order in a few weeks.

in the meantime the 4 batteries are giving them enough power to get by, and just hauling water for the basics out there.

thank you all for your input and suggestions.... seriously, you guys rock.
ill be sure to hit you up again for any off grid living advice.

thanks again.

solar_dave · June 2013

Re: desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

Glad you are on the road to getting it sorted out.

desperate in the desert!!!.... trace sw4024 (xantrex)

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