Building new Off Grid Home in Panama

NorthGuy · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Here's my idea on how you could make it work:

Assume, you need to run AC at 1.5kW for 4 hours in the evening = 6kWh, plus other lads = 7kWh.

I think that since AC is a predictable concentrated load, it's very efficient to run it from the generator on cloudy days/rainy season (look up how Chris Olson uses his generator). If you run the generator during AC runs and charge batteries at the same time, you only need to put 6kWh into your batteries (assuming 1kWh out of 7kWh of your loads go directly from generator). If you cycle your batteries 50 to 80% during dark time (30% of capacity cycled), you need 6*100/30 = 20kWh of battery capacity.

During the sunny days/dry season, you can run AC from solar. You will get some absorptions/floats during which you can run AC for free, so your house will be pre-cooled by the evening and you'll need less AC in the evening. Say, you'll need to use 4kWh for AC in the evening. Next day may be cloudy, so you need enough battery capacity to carry you to the next evening when you're going to run generator/AC. This means your batteries need to store 4+7=11kWh. Assuming cycling from 50 to 100% during sunny time (50% of capacity cycled), you'll need 11*100/50 = 22 kWh of storage.

So, you'll need 22kWh = 460AH of battery capacity.

For solar, you'll need to produce full 6+7 = 13kWh on sunny day. Let's assume 4 hours of sun on a sunny day. If it's less than this, you'll do something in between between cloudy and sunny day schedule. 13/4 = 3.25kW. Assuming 0.7 efficiency (slightly less that Bill's 0.77 because you're in a hot place), you'll need 3.25/0.7 = 4.6kW. This is 16 of your 305W panels. Max current will be 4.6kW*0.9(heat and efficiency derating)/54V = 77A = 17% of your battery capaity. Should be Ok.

For generator, you need to put 6kWh into batteries in 4 hours = 1.5kW, or 1.7kW counting in charger efficuiency. You'll also need 1.5kW for air conditioning, and 2kW (my wild guess) to support other loads. Overall, you'll need 1.7+1.5+2 = 5.3kW. So, you'll need a generator rated at 5.3kW continuous. I don't know if that needs to be derated for heat/humidity.

For inverter. Your max load is 1.5kW air conditioning + 2kW everything else (wild guess again) = 3.5kW. At the charging side 1.5kW/48V(discharge voltage) = 32A (quite low, because you're spreading your charge along the AC run). This is well within specs of XW4548. If you plan to grow your max loads, you can consider XW6048.

westbranch · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Ernest, here is a link to another brand of batteries. Interestingly they are made in Mexico but due to NAFTA get to call themselves a Made in America brand??? don't ask me but I have the Certificate of origin stating USA made??? Maybe there is a dealer there, they make mostly Telecom batteries it looks like from the pictures on their site..http://www.cdtechno.com/product/vla/vla.html

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

westbranch wrote: »

Ernest, here is a link to another brand of batteries. Interestingly they are made in Mexico but due to NAFTA get to call themselves a Made in America brand??? don't ask me but I have the Certificate of origin stating USA made??? Maybe there is a dealer there, they make mostly Telecom batteries it looks like from the pictures on their site..http://www.cdtechno.com/product/vla/vla.html

WB - Checked out the web site. The only battery that could be applicable is the CPV 1100 under Energy & Infrastructure. This is a 2V battery, weighs in at a mere 146 lbs, 11032AH/2.06kW at 1.75 Vpc (Vpc - volts per cell?) at the 24 hr rating. SG is 1.285 @ 77 ̊F (25 ̊C). The "grid alloy material" is "Low antimony/selenium" ( now I have to research this - a little over my head right now).

It has a high cycle life according to the graph on its brochure.

Interesting battery. Out of the US.

Attached brochure.

Attachment not found.

Cheers

Ernest

PS: Sent email to company requesting information.

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

NG - Thanks for taking the time to put together this proposal. SWMBO was quite excited about the prospect of being able to operate AC for 4 hours a day, as was I. I like your idea.

My understanding and comments are below. It sometimes takes me a while to wrap my head around things.

NorthGuy wrote: »

Here's my idea on how you could make it work:

Assume, you need to run AC at 1.5kW for 4 hours in the evening = 6kWh, plus other loads = 7kWh.

I think that since AC is a predictable concentrated load, it's very efficient to run it from the generator on cloudy days/rainy season (look up how Chris Olson uses his generator)

Have read Chris Olson's posts on Generator Support and understand the concept, making sure the system operates as needed, another story. Checked out Generator Support in the XW operating manual, very little information, you get to turn the function on or off, and set the amp level for battery support to the generator. I was looking to determine if Generator support can be used on AC1 and/or AC2, maybe Chris can chime in here. Also been reading his posts on his new diesel generator, nice piece of kit..

If you run the generator during AC runs and charge batteries at the same time, you only need to put 6kWh into your batteries (assuming 1kWh out of 7kWh of your loads go directly from generator). If you cycle your batteries 50 to 80% during dark time (30% of capacity cycled), you need 6*100/30 = 20kWh of battery capacity.

During the sunny days/dry season, you can run AC from solar. This would be using the Aux 1 and Aux 2 of the Classic 150? You will get some absorptions/floats during which you can run AC for free, so your house will be pre-cooled by the evening and you'll need less AC in the evening. Say, you'll need to use 4kWh for AC in the evening. Next day may be cloudy, so you need enough battery capacity to carry you to the next evening when you're going to run generator/AC. This means your batteries need to store 4+7=11kWh. Assuming cycling from 50 to 100% during sunny time (50% of capacity cycled), you'll need 11*100/50 = 22 kWh of storage.

So, you'll need 22kWh = 460AH of battery capacity.

For solar, you'll need to produce full 6+7 = 13kWh on sunny day. Let's assume 4 hours of sun on a sunny day. If it's less than this, you'll do something in between between cloudy and sunny day schedule. 13/4 = 3.25kW. Assuming 0.7 efficiency (slightly less that Bill's 0.77 because you're in a hot place), you'll need 3.25/0.7 = 4.6kW. This is 16 of your 305W panels. Max current will be 4.6kW*0.9(heat and efficiency derating)/54V = 77A = 17% of your battery capaity. Should be Ok.

For generator, you need to put 6kWh into batteries in 4 hours = 1.5kW, or 1.7kW counting in charger efficuiency. You'll also need 1.5kW for air conditioning, and 2kW (my wild guess) to support other loads. Overall, you'll need 1.7+1.5+2 = 5.3kW. So, you'll need a generator rated at 5.3kW continuous. I don't know if that needs to be derated for heat/humidity.

If you are putting 1.5kW-1.7kW into the battery bank, this accounts for the AC operating, so the net result is "0" kWh to the batteries for AC - 1.7kWh in - 1.7kWh out. So would it not be that during AC period of operation of 4 hrs, you would need a generator of 1.7kW (AC) +.3kW (house loads - I have estimated just over 1 kWh during this time or 266 kWh)= 2 kW (this is per hour not for four hours). The AC units will also cycle during this time, so there will be surge current, but also less current when the compressor is stopped. Even rounding up the house loads to .5kWh, this would still only give me a generator size of 2.2 kW.

For inverter. Your max load is 1.5kW air conditioning + 2kW (per hour - or is there a "." missing? everything else (wild guess again) = 3.5kW. At the charging side 1.5kW/48V(discharge voltage) = 32A (quite low, because you're spreading your charge along the AC run). This is well within specs of XW4548. If you plan to grow your max loads, you can consider XW6048. There is only ~$208.00 difference between an XW4548 and the XW6048 on initial install, an upgrade is the full amount.

It would seem that I can use two strings of 8-L16 6V 420AH batteries to closely meet the above, or a single string of 24-L16 2V 1100AH batteries. The difference in cost between the two is $2500.00 ($8k for the L16 6V - $10.5K for the L16 2V). Maybe get an additional reduction in battery price for 16-L16 6V - will ask.

We will also not be using the second AC most of the year. We will be using the AC in our bedroom, so this cuts our power requirement for AC to half until guests are here, or maybe the odd time when someone "HAS" to stay over, or if we want to cool the house a bit. In this regard the L16 6V 420AH batteries should suffice, and barring all this, run the generator.

NG - thanks again. I really appreciate the effort you put into your post. Going into Panama City Wednesday to see the battery guy and hopefully a panel supplier.

Cheers

Ernest

NorthGuy · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Panamretiree wrote: »

My understanding and comments are below. It sometimes takes me a while to wrap my head around things.

On starting generator: The task is not very easy. You need to start it for air conditioning, and you need to make sure it doesn't start for other loads. So you need to fine tune it for that. Also, you need to make sure that the generator doesn't start during sunny days, especially when you turned up air conditioning because batteries are in float. I do not have a standard XW AGS, so I don't know much about it. Chris Olson can probably tell you the details. You may need some additional relays to make sure it does what you want it to.

On AUX. I think, there's an AUX on Classic that you can use to run AC When there's an excess solar power. But, in addition to that, you will need to run AC in the evening when there's no sun at all, so you will need some sort of combination of Classic's AUX and a timer. You can do that with extra relays. You probably also need to be able to run it manually.

On sizing generator. You need to do both tasks - run air conditioning (1.5kW) and charge batteries (1.7kW) at the same time. This gives you 3.2kW. Less than this will run your air conditioning, but you will need to run generator for some extra time to charge batteries. In addition, you need to leave some room for regular loads. It doesn't have to be big, because XW will dial down the charging and even go into generator support if needed. This works well for Chris with his small generator. It doesn't work as smooth with my bigger Generac. You just need to make sure that generator is big enough to charge the batteries and maintain AC during the allotted 4 hours. I would size it to accomodate all regular loads (e.g. few lights + TV + fridge) without stopping the charger. But, you can go with smaller generator too. I wouldn't go with less that 4kW.

On XW6048. With $200 difference in price, I would go with XW6048 without any doubts.

Panamretiree wrote: »

We will also not be using the second AC most of the year. We will be using the AC in our bedroom, so this cuts our power requirement for AC to half until guests are here, or maybe the odd time when someone "HAS" to stay over, or if we want to cool the house a bit.

The numbers above assume 4 hours of AC in the evening. That's just an example. If you come up with different numbers, you can go through calculations again and size the system accordingly.

Panamretiree wrote: »

It would seem that I can use two strings of 8-L16 6V 420AH batteries to closely meet the above, or a single string of 24-L16 2V 1100AH batteries. The difference in cost between the two is $2500.00 ($8k for the L16 6V - $10.5K for the L16 2V). Maybe get an additional reduction in battery price for 16-L16 6V - will ask.

I calculated you would need 460AH, so one string will not be enough. Two strings will give you 840AH. That's a little bit too much, but if the price is right, it might be Ok. If I were you I would also look at different battery options that other people suggested. IMHO, A bank of 500-600AH capacity would be better. If you're going to run a generator for AC every cloudy day, you get a "free" charging during generator runs, so you do not need a big bank - only to carry your loads (6kWh) from one AC run to another.

I think it's a good idea to live for few days and imagine how things are happening - my air conditioning started, so I hear generator starts (is it too noisy?), now my batteries are charging etc. That would give you a feel for the system and how you need to control it.

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Photowhit wrote: »

Look around for electric forklift batteries, Panama City is 1.5 million people? and a harbor city... Often the best value in batteries.

NG also mentioned looking for a different battery setup. Battery Giant that has a satellite office in Panama City provides forklift batteries - I already have sourced L16 6v and 2V batteries through them. It has a Crown 48V 680AH Model 24-D85-17 IST7002 dimensions 38.6875 x 27.1875 x 23 (L-W-H). No price, but will call. Expect it to be a heavy "B". Can't find it on the Crown web site, expect this is normal, company puts its own P/N on the product.

I also read on the web that when weight is an issue, combining 24V or 12V forklift batteries into a larger battery bank is less cumber sum.

Cheers

Ernest

Photowhit · June 2013

Re: Building new Off Grid Home in Panama

Something about forklift batteries is that they are routinely rated at a 6 hour rate, a "680AH Model 24-D85-17 IST7002" is a 680 Ah battery at a 6 hour rate, but at a 20 hour rate (the standard for most deep cycle uses) is about 1072 Ah.

They weigh about 2800lbs, I just moved my tiny 1100lb battery, don't think I would want to move anything bigger without some serious machinery!

Also on smaller batteries, look at the sizes and your help... often a 12 volt 6 cell battery can be more than 500lbs and less than 8 inches wide and 24 tall. So moving would involved lifting them, hard to slide something that tall and heavy around.

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Building new Off Grid Home in Panama

Photowhit wrote: »

Something about forklift batteries is that they are routinely rated at a 6 hour rate, a "680AH Model 24-D85-17 IST7002" is a 680 Ah battery at a 6 hour rate, but at a 20 hour rate (the standard for most deep cycle uses) is about 1072 Ah.

They weigh about 2800lbs, I just moved my tiny 1100lb battery, don't think I would want to move anything bigger without some serious machinery!

Also on smaller batteries, look at the sizes and your help... often a 12 volt 6 cell battery can be more than 500lbs and less than 8 inches wide and 24 tall. So moving would involved lifting them, hard to slide something that tall and heavy around.

Went looking for castors to support a 500 lb load on one of my favorite web sites - Lee Valley. It has castors that support 120 kg (264 lb) each, so if you were to use 4 of these, I would think a 500 lb load can be accommodated. I wonder if 6 or 9 of these would support an 1100 lb load. Always looking for ways to make life easier.

Cheers

Ernest

BB. · June 2013

Re: Building new Off Grid Home in Panama

I would put the batteries on pallets and use a pallet jack (assuming hard/smooth surface, ideally concrete or other good/level paving). You can find different sizes of pallet jacks too.

One pallet jack and some home made pallets would probably be cheaper and easier to move stuff around.

I would not use wheels/casters... I think it is awkward and (depending on what kind of cart you make), more prone to tipping.

-Bill

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

More on ceiling fans:

Ceiling fans have been an issue since we started and we were pointed towards Emerson Fans that have a low wattage for great CFM air movement, ~20W on high. Some new fans just came into the local hardware store - Novey - something like a Home Hardware. These are from Casablanca - it is the Panama DC 52" - 13 degree blade pitch - 6675 CFM on high - has 6 speeds - 32W on high speed and 208 CFM per watt. It is higher than the Emerson ceiling fans, but we will not have to import. Also don't need to have it on high speed.

I would think that having the ceiling fan on half speed at ~3300 CFM will be good with the respective reduction in wattage as well, most normal ceiling fans are about this rating at 60W to 70W (without light).

These are not inexpensive at $459.00 each, but will pay off in the long run. The Emerson eco fans were priced in the same vicinity.

These units will be good for the bedrooms and entranceway. The living/dining room still needs a 60' beast that I will probably have to bring in.

Cheers

Ernest

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Building new Off Grid Home in Panama

BB. wrote: »

I would put the batteries on pallets and use a pallet jack (assuming hard/smooth surface, ideally concrete or other good/level paving). You can find different sizes of pallet jacks too.

One pallet jack and some home made pallets would probably be cheaper and easier to move stuff around.

I would not use wheels/casters... I think it is awkward and (depending on what kind of cart you make), more prone to tipping.

-Bill

Used a pallet jack more than once. Excellent idea. Maybe just rent one for the delivery unless the price is right. Wood is at a premium here though. The floor in the workshop (called a "deposito" down here) will be tiled. These guys like their tile, who am I to say no, came with the price. Even the car park next to the house in front of the "deposito" is going to be tiled.

Cheers

Ernest

BB. · June 2013

Re: Building new Off Grid Home in Panama

Be careful with the underlayment for the tile. Heavy casters, battery banks, etc. can exert very heavy point loads and shatter the covering tile if their is not good support (usually 4" more more of good quality concrete) underneath.

Depending on the structure of the battery--Just a 2-3 4"x4" posts (or a bit taller--some pallet jacks may not go in a 4" space) is enough. You do not need a heavy pallet. Or, use some 3/4" to 1 1/8" plywood subflooring cut into squares, and screwed/nailed to a pair of 2x4 skids for the jack to slid under. (obviously, I don't know metric standards in Panama or what specific materials are available). If you have termites, pressure treated lumber or some sort of metal/plastic pallet structure may work.

I have a friend that is a machinist and 90% of his stuff (including some fair sized machines) are on pallets for moving around the shop. Used pallet jacks (around 5,000 lbs rating) can be found around here for less than $200.

-Bill

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Building new Off Grid Home in Panama

Photowhit wrote: »

Something about forklift batteries is that they are routinely rated at a 6 hour rate, a "680AH Model 24-D85-17 IST7002" is a 680 Ah battery at a 6 hour rate, but at a 20 hour rate (the standard for most deep cycle uses) is about 1072 Ah.

They weigh about 2800lbs, I just moved my tiny 1100lb battery, don't think I would want to move anything bigger without some serious machinery!

Also on smaller batteries, look at the sizes and your help... often a 12 volt 6 cell battery can be more than 500lbs and less than 8 inches wide and 24 tall. So moving would involved lifting them, hard to slide something that tall and heavy around.

PW - Went to the GB site. Great information. The GB site has a conversion from 6hr rate to 20hr rate.

I then went to Battery Giant web site and it supplies forklift/industrial batteries. Sent this information to him:

Crown:

12V P/N 6-H80-13 480AH @ 6hr rate/756AH @ 20hr rate
24V P/N 12-P95-11 475AH @ 6hr rate/748AH @ 20hr rate

GB Battery:

12V P/N 6-75-13 709AH @ 20hr rate
24V P/N 12-75-13 709AH @ 20hr rate

These were the closest I could find to NG's recommendation. Good compromise all round.

Phoned back and he was already looking at sourcing and cost. Will be seeing him tomorrow.

Cheers

Ernest

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Building new Off Grid Home in Panama

BB. wrote: »

Be careful with the underlayment for the tile. Heavy casters, battery banks, etc. can exert very heavy point loads and shatter the covering tile if their is not good support (usually 4" more more of good quality concrete) underneath.

Depending on the structure of the battery--Just a 2-3 4"x4" posts (or a bit taller--some pallet jacks may not go in a 4" space) is enough. You do not need a heavy pallet. Or, use some 3/4" to 1 1/8" plywood subflooring cut into squares, and screwed/nailed to a pair of 2x4 skids for the jack to slid under. (obviously, I don't know metric standards in Panama or what specific materials are available). If you have termites, pressure treated lumber or some sort of metal/plastic pallet structure may work.

I have a friend that is a machinist and 90% of his stuff (including some fair sized machines are on pallets for moving around the shop. Used pallet jacks (around 5,000 lbs rating) can be found around here for less than $200.

-Bill

The floor prior to tiling is 6" concrete with 1/2" rebar inlaid in 12" squares. The tile will be on thin set that I am told will probably be 1" to 2" thick. Hopefully this will take the strain. These guys love their rebar.

Have a concrete counter - 26" wide, running the length of the back wall that is 2" thick concrete on block spaced at 6' intervals. They inlaid 1/2' rebar 12' apart and tied together with 1/2" rebar at 8" intervals. The house will fall apart before this counter.

Will be looking into pallet jacks down here, but used, not likely as they use everything to destruction here, literally.

Cheers

Regards

Ernest

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

NorthGuy wrote: »

For solar, you'll need to produce full 6+7 = 13kWh on sunny day. Let's assume 4 hours of sun on a sunny day. If it's less than this, you'll do something in between between cloudy and sunny day schedule. 13/4 = 3.25kW. Assuming 0.7 efficiency (slightly less that Bill's 0.77 because you're in a hot place), you'll need 3.25/0.7 = 4.6kW. This is 16 of your 305W panels. Max current will be 4.6kW*0.9(heat and efficiency derating)/54V = 77A = 17% of your battery capaity. Should be Ok.

NG - Looked into the CC requirement and according to the Classic String Sizing Tool, I should be good with one controller for a configuration of 2 panels in series and 8 parallel strings. I have attached a picture of proposed panel installation. Could put them all on the front of the house, but would loose some good sun in the afternoon.

Looking down the road, If more panels were to be added for whatever reason, I would need to get another CC. In this regard, I could install the panels and have two smaller arrays with two CCs. The Classics can use the "follow me" function and have a master/slave relationship going. Also gives me redundancy should one CC head south for whatever reason since getting a replacement would not be that quick down here, or just have one spare.

Have a design/CAD program that was given to me and I am having a devil of a time learning it. This has been the bane of my computer existence. Over the years have tried different programs, get frustrated, send it packing. Think I should learn again, get another one, get frustrated, send it packing. Anyone recommend a design/CAD program that is user friendly and is designed as CAD for Dummies?

Roof picture is:

Attachment not found.

Alternate arrangement would be to mount all panels on front roof.

Cheers

Ernest

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Have been looking at the equipment I have been sourcing, and one of the items is the power distribution panel (PDP). There are two recommended: the Schneider XW @ $1,029.00 and the MidNite E-Panel XW 250 Amp @ $816.00.

I am not doing anything exotic. The most exotic configuration I can think of is having two generators hooked into the inverter. The XW inverters have the AC1 and AC2 connections. The benefits of the XW PDP is that the disconnects and breakers are provided for the battery bank and generators. I would be able to use the AC in for one generator and if another generator were acquired I would only have to add another breaker in the PDP.

It would seem that these PDPs "clean" up a lot of the wiring issues surrounding this type of installation. There would still be a need for a generator disconnect.

I notice as well, that the XW PDP can also house the CC DC disconnects. Again this cleans up the wiring in the area.

There will be enough ancillary items surrounding the install, the XW SCP, XW AGS, generator disconnect, internet wireless bridge, etc. to make it look like I know what I am doing.

Are there any thoughts on this, yes/no/maybe?

Cheers

Ernest

BB. · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Which ever you choose--For your first time and/or remote installations, an E-panel of some sort can be a huge savings in time/frustration.

The Midnite panels are supposed to be good quality (I don't use off grid, and I have not read of any complaints here--that I recall) and are popular because they are less money.

Regarding things like dual gensets--You (may) have the choice of inverters with AC1 and AC2 inputs... Or just two (for example) AC inputs (to battery charger and to AC inverter bypass).

I can argue both ways--The "all in one" AC Inverter+Charger units clean up a lot of wiring issues, and can off neat things like "generator support" (AC inverter+AC genset sharing loads in parallel).

On the other hand, when an All in One unit breaks--Nothing may work (battery charger or AC inverter). So--Separate units (inverter and separate battery charger) allow you to have reasonably easy work bypasses and backups...

How far do you go? Belts+Suspenders+deck screws+???? or just keep a couple inverters+AC battery chargers (cheap versions, or identical to your "lower cost" separate module solutions) on the shelf for backup.

I don't know there is a "perfect answer" here. You are near a major city, reasonable weather (won't freeze to death anytime soon), and can get fuel/backup generator/etc. pretty easily.

Back in the middle of nowhere up north--maybe different choices.

-Bill

NorthGuy · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Panamretiree wrote: »

Have been looking at the equipment I have been sourcing, and one of the items is the power distribution panel (PDP). There are two recommended: the Schneider XW @ $1,029.00 and the MidNite E-Panel XW 250 Amp @ $816.00.

I didn't use it (it was $1,500 here!!!). On DC side, I used MidNite MNDC-250, which comes with a wiring diagram and is easy to deal with.

My AC side was quite complicated because I had to transition from grid to off-grid. You don't need any of this. You probably only need a manual transfer switch, so that you could connect your generator directly to the loads if something bad happens to the inverter. Since you need a distribution panel anyway, you can use a box which is a transfer switch and distribution panel at the same time (if you find one which will fit enough breakers). They're usually called "transfer switch with load center" or similar. It'll cost about the same or just a little bit more than the distribution panel alone.

That said, the PDP does look great and is easy to wire.

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Building new Off Grid Home in Panama

Belt and braces all round. Regarding the PDP, was just looking for opinion(s) on good, maybe, flexibility. I think for myself, the PDP is the way to go, keep things neat and tidy. I'll have enough with doing something then realize I could have done it better/different, and redo it. The PDP parts and pieces can be duplicated if something were to break, or fail. Have lots of wall space to put stuff.

Lived in the north, Timmins area in Northern Ontario. Had a cottage there as well. Middle of winter is when Murphy comes a calling.

On a brighter note, going to the city tomorrow to see the battery guy. He sent me quotes for forklift batteries. Not only are they heavy, but expensive too, especially since they are imported, go figure.

Cheers

Ernest

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Went into Panama City today to talk to the battery supplier. We had a good talk where I explained the economics of the situation between the L16 6V 420AH batteries and the Deka forklift batteries. Told him that for us to consider the quoted forklift batteries he would have to get the quote a lot closer to 16-L16 batteries at $8K (taxes in). He did not quite make this number but he came down $4K to $10.5K (taxes in). He also informed me that he had to call the head office regarding using forklift batteries in an RE application to determine if it would work. Not surprising, people do get into their own world and sometimes only branch out when prompted to.

Panama City has only just recently started to allow solar installs in the city proper. Hope this translates into an easy time getting solar equipment into the country.

I was told that solar costs $3.00 a watt here, and that solar is still in its infancy when it comes to residential installs. Makes sense when you think of the wage scales here, and there is still a Spanish cast type system still going strong, and change is not a word that is accepted easily here.

Discussed this with SWMBO, and it is now palatable. SWMBO's only comments were to reiterate our discussions and requirements, and ask when we were going to order the forklift batteries. 8 week delivery time, the company will delver them to the door of the workshop, fully charged with paper stating the charge aspects, SG, etc.

I know the cost is still steep by standards up north, but it is not like the US, we're in Panama, and it's not easy getting product, also a language issue, or I can imagine I'm still back in Canada where it's still not that inexpensive as Cariboocoot mentions on a regular basis. So my only option is to make these last a long, long time.

For our requirements, longevity, DOD and what we intend to do with the system, the forklift batteries are the best bet. Don't intend to be changing them out anytime soon. Have revamped the array size a bit as well to accommodate. The battery bank will be 510AH at the 6hr rate - 803AH at the 20hr rate. Array size will be 18 panels. Still trying to get ahold of Subaru Robin here in Panama, no joy yet, but will keep trying.

The smaller forklift battery bank at 425AH at the 6hr rate - 670AH at the 20hr rate was more expensive.

Also confirmed the status of the Casablanca ceiling fan I saw the other day. 52" "Panama DC" (on its web site under energy star rated ceiling fans) with the specs:

low speed: 2895 CFM at 6W
on med: 4662 CFM at 14W
on high: 6675 CFM at 32W

Six speed remote control included. Blade pitch is 13 degrees, and will factor in a few watts for input power. Bit pricey at $449.00 USD but the specs are good, like anything, you get what you pay for. The builder has allotted us enough money for three out of the four we need so not too bad. The low speed CFM is almost equal to most ceiling fans at high speed and at 60W to 90W (light is extra).

Energy Star ratings not only consider power, but CFM as well. A ceiling fan can have both attributes, high CFM and low wattage, or just high CFM and high wattage, bit of a contradiction I think, but it's the fact.

Thanks as well to all who have assisted us in getting to this point, would list everyone, but would hate to miss someone. Your input and advice has been invaluable, without which I doubt we would be at this stage, and the learning curve is not over.

Cheers

Ernest

NorthGuy · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Panamretiree wrote: »

Told him that for us to consider the quoted forklift batteries he would have to get the quote a lot closer to 16-L16 batteries at $8K (taxes in). He did not quite make this number but he came down $4K to $10.5K (taxes in).

Wow! That is expensive. GB forklift batteries are here perhaps half of what he's asking.

It's quite interesting how prices are diferent in Panama. Xantrex stuff is very cheap. Forklift batteris are very expensive.

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

NorthGuy wrote: »

Wow! That is expensive. GB forklift batteries are here perhaps half of what he's asking.

It's quite interesting how prices are diferent in Panama. Xantrex stuff is very cheap. Forklift batteris are very expensive.

NG - not finished yet. Going to try one more tactic before I'm finished. Repeat business, even if it is a referral for this stuff is good coin for him, maybe I can get a few more points shaved off.

Haven't got the Xantrex equipment here yet.

Cheers

Ernest

vtmaps · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Panamretiree wrote: »

I know the cost is still steep by standards up north, <snip>. So my only option is to make these last a long, long time.

For our requirements, longevity, DOD and what we intend to do with the system, the forklift batteries are the best bet. Don't intend to be changing them out anytime soon.

One argument in favor of the L16s is that they are cheaper, and as a general rule of thumb we usually recommend cheap batteries for first timers. That is because many (most?) off-gridders murder their first set of batteries. You seem to be more on top of things than most folks... time will tell.

If I were ordering a new forklift battery (and I might, after I finish murdering my L16s), I would seriously look into ordering a battery with an electrolyte circulation system.
read: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?9733

--vtMaps

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

vtmaps wrote: »

One argument in favor of the L16s is that they are cheaper, and as a general rule of thumb we usually recommend cheap batteries for first timers. That is because many (most?) off-gridders murder their first set of batteries. You seem to be more on top of things than most folks... time will tell.

If I were ordering a new forklift battery (and I might, after I finish murdering my L16s), I would seriously look into ordering a battery with an electrolyte circulation system.
read: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?9733

--vtMaps

vtMaps - Yes, the L16s are cheaper and I mentioned that to the supplier. Told him that the only way I could consider the forklift batteries proposed was if he got the price a lot closer to the L16s. Having said this, he did sharpen his pen a lot. I also considered the L16 2V batteries that come in at $9768.00 plus tax ($10451.00)

This makes the forklift batteries not too out of range.

Maybe Deka battery company is looking at the RE industry like the marine industry, anything with a big "M" on the front of it is more expensive, a "BOAT" dollar (break out another thousand).

Having said this, the L16s 6V 420AH batteries are $8K, and no matter how you look at it, both will be an expensive lesson if you don't take care of them.

I'm expecting the first 6 months to be a huge learning curve for setup, operation, and maintenance. Setting up my process and procedures, involving SWMBO in this as well. Lots of info to assimilate and apply.

Cheers

Ernest

NorthGuy · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Panamretiree wrote: »

Having said this, the L16s 6V 420AH batteries are $8K, and no matter how you look at it, both will be an expensive lesson if you don't take care of them.

At $500 a piece these L-16s are also incredibly expensive. Perhaps you can find some other source for batteries other than this guy? May be ordering from the US?

Surfpath · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

I agree with Northguy - importing sounds cheaper.

Another idea is how about check out Panama's yachting industry?

Often chandleries (sp?) are the best place to get (albeit smaller amp hr) deep cell batteries. Trojan 6v golfcarts or Decka's are often found cheap-er at these locations - mainly because they sell so many to yachty's.

Just an idea.

A few links from this sailing guide I googled:
"The Casa de las batterias (catchy name, eh?): http://www.casabat.com
Pricesmart carries deep cycle 6V golf cart batteries (at the Transistmica location only).
See also Marine Warehouse, under “Chandleries” to bring specialty batteries from the U.S."

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Surfpath wrote: »

I agree with Northguy - importing sounds cheaper.

Another idea is how about check out Panama's yachting industry?

Often chandleries (sp?) are the best place to get (albeit smaller amp hr) deep cell batteries. Trojan 6v golfcarts or Decka's are often found cheap-er at these locations - mainly because they sell so many to yachty's.

Just an idea.

A few links from this sailing guide I googled:
"The Casa de las batterias (catchy name, eh?): http://www.casabat.com
Pricesmart carries deep cycle 6V golf cart batteries (at the Transistmica location only).
See also Marine Warehouse, under “Chandleries” to bring specialty batteries from the U.S."

Checked out Casa de las Batteries. Only Trojan T-105s, $4K for a 48V pack.

Will check Pricesmart.

Will be checking importing.

Cheers

Ernest

Panamretiree · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

NorthGuy wrote: »

At $500 a piece these L-16s are also incredibly expensive. Perhaps you can find some other source for batteries other than this guy? May be ordering from the US?

Have sent emails to battery manufacturers in the US and have had replies where they will ship to a port and then it's up to me.

Not easy.

Cheers

Ernest

animatt · June 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

It has probably been mentioned but stealing forklift batteries would not be easy. Stealing 6v batteries is usually much easier. Not sure if you plan to stay in panama full time or will there be trips back to the states. If so who watches over things. I stayed out a house in mexico over a summer free of charge to just keep an eye on the system(summer 2009). It was a small battery array as the previous batteries, and panels were all stripped out of the house. The house was locked and there were locking hurricane shutters all up and locked. who ever stole the stuff had to manually take hurricane shutters off to get into the house. While not quick or easy with out electricity when you have tons of time it is not an issue. This was in a gated area that was very rural.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned. Also any block wall you have should be pour solid with rebar if you expect to have a chance to protect items inside. Hollow block provides very basic security.

Matthew

westbranch · June 2013

Re: Building new Off Grid Home in Panama

If the import export business is similar ( Ya I KNOW , it's Panama!) you will need an Agent &/or Customs Broker to handle the paper filing, etc. They also have their connections for freight handlers.

Do they have a 'Yellow Pages " down there?

Ask the Policia?

Building new Off Grid Home in Panama

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