University Project

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danb
danb Registered Users Posts: 2
Hi Guys,
I'm currently doing a first year University project in which we design a new physics building that must be off-grid.
In terms of power generation we are going with solar, but my confusion comes with power storage.
We have an estimated use off 100kwh per day (including heat + cooling, lighting and around 90 computers for a tutorial room).
Is it possible to have a battery bank, linked to the solar, large enough to support this kind of usage? Would it be economically feasible?
There appear to be a lot of useful information around for this kind of thing, but not so much at this scale, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks:)
Daniel

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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: University Project

    Welcome to the forum.

    Is it possible to supply 100 kW hours from batteries? Yes.
    Is it practical? No.

    Maybe your university needs a new economics professor. :p

    100 kW hours / 48 Volts (highest standard system Voltage) = 2100 Amp hours, meaning a minimal 4200 Amp hour battery bank. 420 Amps peak charging current, meaning 6 charge controllers - each connected to about 26,000 Watts of array.

    Very, very expensive.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: University Project

    I could not find the posts--But we have had a few threads about remote islands that have centralized power using Surrette / Rolls Batteries and SunnyIsland Inverters (multiple locations).

    I will say that yes, it can be done, but it does take a lot of attention paid to safety. Very large battery banks need very heavy current bus bars and fusing/protection against short circuits.

    The systems (as I recall, I could not find the threads with a quick search) are using the standard Sunny Island and similar AC inverters (something like ~6kW) units and battery banks all cross tied together.

    Usually, the first step we recommend is to "know your loads"... Very heavy surges (pumps, and possibly lab gear) can put a strain on the systems. But, usually the biggest issue is are the "smaller loads" that run 12-24 hours per day...

    For example, a standard home with a refrigerator my use 130 watts (average) when running but it runs 50% duty cycle 24 hours per day which works out to:

    130 watts * 0.50 * 24 hours per day = 1,560 Watt*Hours = 1.56 kWH per day

    If this was a cafeteria fridge/freezer making lots of ice and cooling foods for later serving--The power usage can go up a lot.

    A simple office microwave may use a lot of power to run, but if it only runs 20 minutes a day--Then it does not use much stored energy:

    1,500 watts * 1/3 hour per day = 500 Watt*Hours = 0.5 kWH per day.

    But that little 300 watt desktop computer that is used to write papers and run experiments/simulations:

    300 watts * 24 hours = 7,200 WH = 7.2 kWH per day

    Yes--It is possible to build/run/maintain a larger power system on $0.50 to $1.00 or so per kWH... In California, large users of power (especially durring summer afternoons) can pay upwards of $0.50 per kWH (homes/commercial).

    So one can say that is it possible for an Off Grid system properly designed and maintained could be cost competitive with utility power in some locations (or if this was a remote site where power was not available).

    If this were a "real" project--There are things that need to be done to support a real school type load... For example, most schools are closed (or reduced occupation) during summer--That is usually when the most solar power is available.

    During winter, many places will see 1/3 or less the amount of summer sun... So there are the issues of backup power (generator)--Or if the power is highly variable--Then using a generator to "support" battery power during those times (evening meal prep, student dorm with lights/computers/studying) may be a good option.

    The "solar power part" is easy to do a paper design for--The hard part is understanding/estimating the actual loads and what happens if the solar power system is too big (or more likely) to small to support the needed loads without power outages/backup gensets/etc...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • tangk1
    tangk1 Registered Users Posts: 4
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    Re: University Project

    Give up this project. Solar is expensive. It is just for fun and for the place which have not electricity network.
  • danb
    danb Registered Users Posts: 2
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    Re: University Project

    Thanks for getting back so quick. I'll have to look into some form of alternative. Perhaps incorporating a smaller battery bank for night time hours and relying more on generators when it is cloudy, etc. Thanks again.
  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
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    Re: University Project

    Solar design is a combination of Physics and Economics. Very challenging (and fun) to come up with the least cost, best long term solution. DON'T just give up. We have a whole world of people that have just cop'd out to just doing the easy thing of burning short term dirty fuels so they (we) can just go along wastefully using lots of energy. High value clean solar energy should be used for high value uses like instrumentation and controls (computers and displays), lighting, drive motors, etc. Low value, clean energy should be used for low value uses like heating and cooling. Buildings should be designed so that weak heating and cooling systems (passive and direct solar) are sufficient. Poorly designed buildings need the strength of expensive heating and cooling systems like forced heat and refrigeration. Plus it is a lot more efficient to heat directly with solar as opposed to generating electricity with PV to run a heat pump.
    The key to minimizing batteries is to use the power when it is available. Our cultural desire to have power 24/7 is expensive. Its a great thing if you can afford it though. We solve that problem by networking all our users via the grid so that the demand is smoothed out and predictable. As a result, the obvious solution for your building is to stay grid tied. Not a very interesting freshman class project though.
    How about you physics types come up with a huge slow spinning mass hooked up to a motor/generator that can store power during the day and feed it back at night? It would take some great bearings and some good gearing and some way of converting the varying spin frequency into 60hz but on a medium scale like this might make sense. Think of what a statement it would make for physics!
  • robd
    robd Registered Users Posts: 5
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    Re: University Project
    danb wrote: »
    We have an estimated use off 100kwh per day (including heat + cooling, lighting and around 90 computers for a tutorial room).
    Is it possible to have a battery bank, linked to the solar, large enough to support this kind of usage? Would it be economically feasible?
    Daniel

    Interesting project!
    I think the first thing to tackle is to ask yourself what you can off-load from the solar PV first. What can you do to reduce the total electrical load required?
    Look to alternatives to electrical heating/cooling. What other electrical loads can you reduce? Energy efficient lighting, 'green' computers and LCD monitors if you're not using them aleady. Think efficiency.

    -Rob-
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: University Project
    danb wrote: »
    Hi Guys,
    I'm currently doing a first year University project in which we design a new physics building that must be off-grid....
    ....(including heat + cooling, lighting and around 90 computers for a tutorial room).....

    As we tell people new to solar...

    First you need to conserve. I'm actually impressed if you can get that much on that little to begin with, but if your designing this from the ground up, I wouldn't, I'd design it from the ground down! If you do an earth contact building you can reduce your heating and cooling needs to very little using passive solar. I would start from the idea of conservation. Search the web, for earth contact info, "earthship" is sometimes used for this type of structure.

    Somewhere I saw a picture of what I recall (old feeble mind) a setup with 30+ Midnite classics in an island community power setup. Anyone recall seeing this?
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: University Project

    this is a sort of Guns and Butter type economic situation,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_versus_butter_model somewhere is the sweet-spot of what you pay for solar power and how much you can actually run off that power... ie you maximize the usage while minimizing outlay of money.
     
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