Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1 · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Coot
You posted while I was typing.

I'm not chastising, just pointing out that this is the sort of problems anyone will have doing it "sideways" as it were. You are not only learning (albeit the hard way) but also helping others to learn as they will be able to read your experiences and perhaps avoid some difficulties that otherwise would frustrate and bankrupt them

My answer below.

Just think how bad it would be for me if you guys quit answering my questions.

I should have highlighted that last sentence.
Thanks
gww

If everything that I bought works, I don't know if it could have been done cheeper then what I will end up with in the end or not. I have some bad issues like long wiring runs due to me really liking trees in my yard.

I really like the ideal of the larger box with numerous circuits. Its not that I think I could run everything in the box but if they can be switched on and off individually and mesured, it just seems neat. It also seems to be one thing that might not have to be changed if I ever did expand inverters and system. I didn't really know the transfer switches exsisted in that fassion.

Have I spent alot for what I am going to end up with? I never thought I could cover it all unless I change the way I live. I ask cause I really don't know.
I know I will never save money with it but my monthly bill should be a little lower till I need new batteries. I pay about $80 a month now except about three months of ac. $0.09 kwh.

$10,200 including turbines. Still need wire and trenching = $2500 minimum, batteries= $1600, Towers= not sure what I will end up with. I have one 40' lattice tower already. It is not tall enough but may have to use it. Have one 12 volt turbine on about a 40' utilitie pole that I may use short term till I can come up with something better. I still have to put maby $1000 in my solar rack as all I have now is a 12' by 40 foot treated wood frame.

The homemade panels do put out if I find some way to use them. I have been using 180 watts and 2 car batteries at a creek for going on two years.

Thanks
gww

Cariboocoot · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Have one 12 volt turbine

How are you going to charge a 48 Volt battery bank with a 12 Volt turbine?

My system cost $8,000 five years ago. I could today "duplicate" it for about $2,000 less and have slightly more power available, mainly due to the drop in panel prices. They were near $5 a Watt then! And the MX60 was $900, now $500. Even the inverter had gone down in price. Batteries have gone up, though.

Could you do it cheaper than you have? I don't know. But education is always expensive anyway.

gww1 · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Coot

How are you going to charge a 48 Volt battery bank with a 12 Volt turbine?

I have two 48 volt turbines in my garage. I would switch out the twelve volt one and keep it for something else.

If you don't copy people like hugh piggot or the dans at otherpower turbins are easy to spend on and not have work. I feel better about the ones from plans but won't know till they fly for awhile.

They did work better on my test stand though.

It's all got just a little bit more that will make it work better if you spend just a little more.

I have not looked at you provided links yet.

Thanks
gww

gww1 · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Coot
I take it by the sub panels you posted, that You don't think it is worth $300-$370 for the flexability of the generator transfer circuits. I was going to go the plain panel rout cause I didn't know the other generator transfer rout exsisted. I was going to move one circuit and watch it a couple days, then move another and so on till I reached the inverter, battery and panel system equalibream.

You don't see a bennifit of having multipal circuits with differrent loads on them that could be turned on and turned off based on time of year, need or sun or lack of sun?

I did get your point of extention cords and trial before settling on something. It does sound interesting having something that could be run by the inverter and with just a plug in be switched to a generator. Or just a flip of a switch be put back on the grid with the other circuits staying on the inverter.

I don't know about cost but it does sound interesting. Your thoughts?

Thanks
gww

NorthGuy · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww,

I'm surprised that with almost 8kW of solar plus wind, you cannot run all your loads. Your electric bill should list total consumption. Is it more than 1MWh/month?

Cariboocoot · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

My thought is that buying "permanent" hard-wire equipment and then changing your plan later can be money down the tube. If you can leave yourself flexibility now and see what sort of configuration works best for you then you can hard-wire later.

The inverters have an AC in (must be fed by 240 VAC single phase). In essence this can also be a plug, either in to the utility mains or the generator output. Use as needed, which brings up the issue of how closely will you be able to monitor it? If you're not home all day and the 'frige shuts down because you ran out of battery/solar it could be a problem. If you can watch the performance long enough to establish viability then you can determine an automation process (if needed).

Since you don't yet know how you're going to make best use of the equipment, it's better not to have any of the AC connections fixed.

gww1 · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

northguy
From memory I think I used between 750-850 kwh per month. I have been rounding it in my head to 30 kwh per day. Not living there I use 350 kwh per month.

Coot

If you can watch the performance long enough to establish viability then you can determine an automation process (if needed).

Depends on if I get my way or my wife gets hers. I have a building that I had a restrant in that has set for about 7 years and needs work if I ever decide to sell and my basement need some things updated again. My wife cares about these things. I care about getting the solar and stuff installed and learnt. I figure a year or so. I believe I will win. However spending all that retirement time together she may wear me down. I don't think so though.

I do sort of want to get something coming is from my stuff and I will get tired of it as soon as I know how to get tired of it. I am going to try and stream line but in the prosess learn what I have to do.

Thanks
gww

Cariboocoot · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Yeah, I have a wife like that: no matter how much I have to do she always thinks up more. :roll:
This is an oh-so-helpful attitude in the state I'm in.

westbranch · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Ha, even if my wife just thinks I am going to do something, she is already at me to do something different... ya never win!

gww1 · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

I have two and one half months to work. We are listing this house and hopfully it will sale quick but eitherway I am moving back and installing my stuff. I have practiced every time I get two weeks off for the last 3 1/2 years.

Attachment not found.

Attachment not found.

I will have to have a very heavy extention cord as my inverter will be 60 feet from my house. I almost have to hard wire some thing to move my stuff to.

Thanks
gww

Rybren · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

^^^^

It's hard-wired into their genetic code.

gww1 · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

The worst thing about my wife is I think she is tougher then me. I am like the guy who said he finaly got his wife on her knees. She was trying to get him to come out from under the bed.
gww

NorthGuy · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1 wrote: »

From memory I think I used between 750-850 kwh per month. I have been rounding it in my head to 30 kwh per day. Not living there I use 350 kwh per month.

On a sunny day, with 8kW solar, you'll probabably get more than 30kWh. It may be reasonable to run everything from the solar and occasionally use the grid when it's not enough. And in addition to this you have some wind. Even if you have long outages, you can get through them if you conserve just a bit of power during outages.

It is much easier to wire it up for the whole house. You simply connect your grid entrence to the inverter's AC input, and then connect your inverter's output to the main panel. If grid is on, it'll pick up all the load that inverter can't. If grid is off and it's cloudy, you simply get careful with your loads until outage is over or the sun comes up.

Moreover, if you do a good job with kill-a-watt, you may easily get rid of 200-300 kWh per month if you want to.

gww1 · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Northguy
I will have to switch loads from the main panel to a sub panel which really sucks cause my main panel is in a family room in my basement and so I am puting my inverters and batteries in a detached garage. It really sucks cause I have the outback ac sub-panel with breakers and if I could put it close to the main panel I would have to buy nothing but some wire.

I haven't built a mount for the home made panels cause of shade close and I don't want to run wire 200' for home made panels. I may set some thing up close regardless or shade.

I believe during the summer there will be whole months that I don't get anything out of wind. Also at this point I am talking at about 40' high, which is nowhere high enough to do well. I will be looking for reasonable towers to get them higher but for 500 watt turbines I am not going to spend what it cost to put a ten kwh burgy. I will take anything though.

Thanks
gww

NorthGuy · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1 wrote: »

I will have to switch loads from the main panel to a sub panel which really sucks cause my main panel is in a family room in my basement and so I am puting my inverters and batteries in a detached garage. It really sucks cause I have the outback ac sub-panel with breakers and if I could put it close to the main panel I would have to buy nothing but some wire.

Running 240V wires to your power shed and back may not be such a bad idea.

You now want to do (if I understand correctly):

meter -> main panel -> transfer switch -> sub panel
                             ^
                             |
          inverter --(100ft)-

You will have to switch between inverter and grid, or you can make it automatic at rather big expense. At any rate, it'll be inefficient because some of your loads will be using grid even if you have solar energy available at the same time.

Instead, you can do:

meter --(100ft)-> inverter --(100ft)-> main panel
  |                                       ^
  |                                       |
   ------------ bypass switch ------------

This way, inverter will do all the switching and syncing to the grid. You'll only be getting from the grid what you need, not a bit more.

gww1 · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Northguy
What I have now is meter to house and maby garage. I don't know for sure cause I never turned the main breaker in the house off to see if the garage power went out. I believe the panel in the garage and the one in the house come from the meter not from each other but I will check before I do anything.

So, I was going from the garage panel to the inverter and its sub-panel and then from the inverter sub panel to a new sub-panel in the house and then transfer the loads I want from the main house panel to the new sub-panel in the house.

I believe the set up can be made seamless based on battery voltage where the inverter powers down to a certain voltage and then goes to pass through where the grid runs the loads. The only problem is suporting heavy loads when not in sell back mode. In "hbx" the off grid mode, the inverter supports all the loads or is in pass through mode supporting none of them.

Does what I typed make sence?

Thanks
gww

gww1 · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Also the transfer box I know about was part of the new panel and would alow the moved loads to be run by the inverter at the new box or switch the load back to the main panel at will.
Thanks
gww

NorthGuy · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1 wrote: »

What I have now is meter to house and maby garage. I don't know for sure cause I never turned the main breaker in the house off to see if the garage power went out. I believe the panel in the garage and the one in the house come from the meter not from each other but I will check before I do anything.

I had a similar configuartion. I had a split box by the meter with a cable to the house and another cable to the garage. I cut off the cable that came to the house and re-routed it so that it now was coming from the house to the garage. After I did this, the power from the meter only was going to the garage (where all my solar stuff is now).

I put a new distribution panel (I mean breaker box

) into the garage which supplied all the loads in the garage. And I connected the cable from the house to one of the breakers in this breaker box. Once I did that, my breaker box in the garage became my main distribution panel. By doing so, I consolidated all my loads.

I also installed a smaller two-breaker box between the meter and the main breaker box. One of the breakers in that small box was reserved to supply power to the inverter. The other led to the main breaker panel.

The main breaker panel wasn't just a panel. It had a built-in transfer switch. From one side, the switch was fed by the grid power coming from the small panel. From the other side, it was to be fed by the generator, but later I switched this to the inverter.

That's how my system looks, except now the meter is disconnected.

meter -> small panel (garage) -> main panel (garage) -> house etc.
                |                   ^     |
                V                   |     V
                 -RE power (garage)-       ----> garage loads

Does that make sense?

gww1 wrote: »

So, I was going from the garage panel to the inverter and its sub-panel and then from the inverter sub panel to a new sub-panel in the house and then transfer the loads I want from the main house panel to the new sub-panel in the house.

This leaves all the circuits in the garage and all the circuits in your main house breaker box not transferred to the sub panel inaccessible for solar power. You will be able to feed them only from the grid. At the same time you may be wasting free solar power.

gww1 · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Northguy

This leaves all the circuits in the garage and all the circuits in your main house breaker box not transferred to the sub panel inaccessible for solar power. You will be able to feed them only from the grid. At the same time you may be wasting free solar power.

I agree with you, However I am not as confident as you that I can run it all. I think I will have to leave the dryer, double electric ovens and central air in the main panel no mater what.

This leaves all the circuits in the garage and all the circuits in your main house breaker box not transferred to the sub panel inaccessible for solar power. You will be able to feed them only from the grid. At the same time you may be wasting free solar power.

This is true unless I switched all the loads to a box like bill posted a picture of and left them in the main panel. Then I could move anything at will between the two.

I do understand what you did much better. I actually have to go to bed now but will think more on this tomorrow. I would have never thought of your wiring system on my own. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
gww

NorthGuy · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1 wrote: »

However I am not as confident as you that I can run it all. I think I will have to leave the dryer, double electric ovens and central air in the main panel no mater what.

I lived couple months with electric range and electric dryer with the Inverter in pass-through mode (when it simply passes the grid power through) and didn't have any problem. My inverter (6kW Xantrex) could easily run my elerctric range from batteries. Your outbacks should be able to do the same. I now switched to gas range and gas dryer and I feel very good about them. I don't have central air because it's not too hot here most of the time. Although I waste 20kWh on a sunny day, so I think it might be a good idea to get one.

gww1 · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Northguy

I have gas hot water heater, gas cook top, gas stove and oven in the basement. I could live without the double electric oven but I some times get on a cinnamin roll kick where I have all three ovens going at once.

I did a rough estiment of my highest use month by the highest priced electric bill. I believe I use about 3000 kwhs during my highest summer month. The ac apparrently uses 2 times as much power as my whole house. Nine months I used about $70 per month (now seems to be about $85) and from $170 to $220 for three summer months. 2&1/2 to 3 ton air conditioner. I won't live with out it and can't cover it. It is the one thing that makes me wish I was grid tied so I could use everything that an exceptional solar day would provide. I looked at the plate on the ac and could not understand it. It didn't say amps or watts so untill I get back and put a clamp meter to it I don't know how much it uses or what would run it.

I am going to insulate the attic better.

I Like your ideal of the whole house being on the inverter and just going to pass through when my batteries get low but don't think the inverters will run my house.

I really like the panel bill posted cause I like the ideal that I could have on off controll of most circuits (individually) to experment with and could run with a generator if I ever wanted to.

Like coot says though, with two inverters I really only have 30 amps. I still like the box bill posted.

I might of ordered it but my wife says I can't ship anything else to this adress cause we are trying to sell this house and want everything in it to be neat as a pin.

There are some cheaper on ebay but I can't tell if they are controlled by each circuit or just a big transfer for all. I also can't tell if they come with the breakers or not.

I love what you did but I have not built slowly while using so really have no ideal what I am going to have.

I got bored cause I had read everybodys post till their werent any and so thought about "what the hell am I going to decide to do on this"

Still thinking but just kind of indecisive.
Cheers
gww

NorthGuy · May 2013

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1 wrote: »

2&1/2 to 3 ton air conditioner. I won't live with out it and can't cover it.

Probably not a good idea to run it through the inverter, even in pass through mode.

Fortunately for me, we do not meed much of air conditioning here, so I didn't have this problem.

Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

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