Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1

I will be trying to install my system sometime in aug. My stuff listed in my signature is what I have to work with.

My ideals are to start with 16 sams club batteries for a 416 ah 48 volt battery bank.

I am going to move circuits from my main panels to my sub panel one at a time and run a bit to see what things use. Sort of my kill-o-watt meter. I will probly move my well pump first. I will use much more water during the summer due to gardining. I will move my hot water propane furnace next and will have to wait till winter to see what it draws. Everything else I can probly use a kill-o-watt meter on and figure out what is on the circuit.

I have the grid and will use it for back up when I get in trouble on the things I put in the inverters sub panel durring bad weather and such.

I have a propane hot water heater. I am going to add an 50 gal electric hot water heater that I am going to use for exess power when the batteries reach absorb. It will be in a warm area and even if not much power goes to it just getting to room temp will probly save me propane.

With this set up what should I shoot for as far as loads in the sub panel?

On the batteries: I will probly go with sams club due to the ease of purchase but is it worth the risk to look at used or reconditioned forklift batteries?

Washing machine could be a day time load and I can leave the dryer on the grid.

Even after doing alot of reading am I crazy or can I make this work on the path I am taking.

Thanks
gww

PS not worryed about fitting in the homemade panels but will use the turbines in a low wind zone 2 area.

BB.

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Well--Use your kill-a-watt or similar meter to come up with a spread sheet of your loads.

Loads that use high surge/starting currents (water pumps, refrigeration) tend to drive high battery capacity and inverter output ratings. And they may or many not use a lot of average power... In general, they are amount the most difficult appliances to operate off grid.

More or less, I would suggest loads that are lower sized and more even power usage over time (LED/CFL lighting, computers, radio/TV/etc.) that also may make "better use" of your large UPS/Green Power system. A water pump or propane water heater will hardly notice a 1 hour power outage--where lack of lights/TV/Computer/Modem-Router/etc. are noticed right away--and many actually have loss of data with a power hit.

The pump/refrigerator/water heater (depends if tanked or demand type water heater, how much water/type of water storage/etc.) may not be needed for that first 1/2 day of power outage. And if you have a cistern for water, a backup small pressure pump may take you for a few days on water usage.

Of course, this is all personal needs type thing... But if you have a large enough system to run some pretty heavy/surgey loads (water pump/fridge), the other loads will almost be "for free".

-Bill

gww1

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Bill

Of course, this is all personal needs type thing... But if you have a large enough system to run some pretty heavy/surgey loads (water pump/fridge), the other loads will almost be "for free".

I guess that is what I am trying to figure out.

I never started my generator when my power went out cause it never lasted very long. I did about burn down my house when I had a wood stove and the power went out and the fan didn't kick on and heat built up in the fire box. It was only out a couple hours. I don't now have a wood stove.

I don't really know what I want. I was just thinking that if my power did go out water would be important and heat would be important. Since I have propane hot water baseboard heat it would be bad if it froze and should take less power then trying to use electric and safer then using kerosine. My well is a deep well and has a pressure tank. It is 240 volts hard wired. I don't know if my inverters will run it or not. If the inverter would power it I don't know if 416 ah battery bank would start it. I know I can try it first and see and if it won't run it I can put it back in the main panel.

I will be installing before I can check out my loads cause I am not on site yet. With out conservation I could never come close to covering what I used when I lived there before.

The way I see it I will have more charging then I will have battery and I mostly want to use everything and get what I can and except for the two mentioned things (well and furnace) I wouldn't care about other things working in an outage. I always got by without the furnace and water also but have never had a long outage.

I have 7200 watts worth inverter, 5640 watts solar and 1000 watts turbines. I want to try and get what I can with 416 ah batteries. I will be retired and will try to get the most out of the pv as I can cause it is my toy.

I never set the clocks on anything anyway and never have anything on the computer that I am afraid of loseing but if you are saying that the large quick draw on the batteries makes a 9000 watts of battery storage into a 4000 watt storage, I may need to get differant priorities.

Can I load this system resonably enough to use my pv and revert to grid when I need to or will I cycle my batts to much and have nowhere to go with my production. I would like the well and furnace but am set on nothing.

Will I waste too much production with a 416 ah bank? If I don't care what I power, what is a good number of watt hours for the loads in the sub panel. What should be the split for day time watt hours compared to night time or will this not matter due to load shedding to hot watter.

I may think I can do more then I really can do.

thanks
gww

Ps I have Three ice boxes and two freezers and I usually only run one freezer most of the time. I wish I could do some suplimental ac during summer production but hot water (resistance load) seems to be able to be done with exess from battery charging but ac is all or nothing. I know I can't power everything unless I change my living or expand.

gww1

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

I would like whatever I do to be self contained and only use the grid as an off grid person would use a generator. I want to practice battery management as if I were off grid.
thanks
gww

BB.

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1 wrote: »

I never started my generator when my power went out cause it never lasted very long. I did about burn down my house when I had a wood stove and the power went out and the fan didn't kick on and heat built up in the fire box. It was only out a couple hours. I don't now have a wood stove.

I would suggest getting the generator out one quiet weekend and power it up and your loads for an hour and see how everything works out. I would get a couple of Kill-a-watt meters and/or a Current Clamp Meter (AC/DC clamp meter would be great for debugging the DC side of your system--AC will not "drift" like DC does). Use the clamp meter on a jumper cord where you break out the wires (i.e., strip the outside SOJ cord jacket so you can clamp on the hot leads individually so you can monitor current usage per leg). Measure your major loads so you have an idea of how much power you will actually need (and make sure that your well pump starts instead of being locked up and overheating).

You might find that a) you cannot start the genset, or b) you don't have any good way to move power from the genset to your loads (hardwired loads in your home and no transfer switch) or c) the thing is so noisy/smelly that your will be chased out by neighbors with pitchforks and torches. (of course, during a multi-day blackout, they will be coming by with 200' of extension cord for their grandmothers in iron lungs).

After you are done, you can drain fuel/run fuel out of carburettor, "pickle the engine", and put it away. (there is the whole fuel storage/emergency supply issue--but if you have lots of propane, is your generator propane fueled?).

I don't really know what I want. I was just thinking that if my power did go out water would be important and heat would be important. Since I have propane hot water baseboard heat it would be bad if it froze and should take less power then trying to use electric and safer then using kerosene. My well is a deep well and has a pressure tank. It is 240 volts hard wired. I don't know if my inverters will run it or not. If the inverter would power it I don't know if 416 ah battery bank would start it. I know I can try it first and see and if it won't run it I can put it back in the main panel.

A 416 AH @ 48 volt battery bank nominally would be good for:

• 416 AH * 48 volts * C/8 discharge rate * 0.85 inverter eff = 2,122 Watt max continuous power (hours of running)
• 416 AH * 48 volts * C/2.5 discharge rate * 0.85 inverter eff = 6,789 Watt max surge power (10's of seconds)

So, that is a pretty healthy sized battery bank. Another rule of thumb would be ~1kW of inverter output per 100 AH @ 48 volt battery bank (which would be ~4.16kW maximum short term loads).

So, I would think your battery bank should be capable of running your well pump in the 1 to 1.5 HP range. But, as always, more information would be better (three wire pumps are easier to start than two wire pumps as the well head capacitor uses less starting current, for example).

Are you planning on "stacking" the inverters for 120/240 VAC operation or using an auto transformer and 120 VAC paralleling of your Outback inverters for power (I think they support that--a bit out of my knowledge base).

I will be installing before I can check out my loads cause I am not on site yet. With out conservation I could never come close to covering what I used when I lived there before.

As many people have said here before--Energy use is highly personal. There is nothing wrong with using the grid (at least for now) to live your comfortable lifestyle, and using the off grid system for the basic necessities (whatever that is for your family).

The way I see it I will have more charging then I will have battery and I mostly want to use everything and get what I can and except for the two mentioned things (well and furnace) I wouldn't care about other things working in an outage. I always got by without the furnace and water also but have never had a long outage.

A 400-1,000 gallon storage tank with a small AC or DC pressure pump can always be backup too... Fill once or twice a week with the genset/well pump, then use the off grid system for 24x7 water pressurization (when grid is down).

I have 7200 watts worth inverter, 5640 watts solar and 1000 watts turbines. I want to try and get what I can with 416 ah batteries. I will be retired and will try to get the most out of the pv as I can cause it is my toy.

Using PV Watts for Columbia Missouri with a fixed array tilted to latitude and a 5.64 kW array:

"Station Identification"
"City:","Columbia"
"State:","Missouri"
"Lat (deg N):", 38.82
"Long (deg W):", 92.22
"Elev (m): ", 270
"PV System Specifications"
"DC Rating:"," 5.6 kW"
"DC to AC Derate Factor:"," 0.520"
"AC Rating:"," 2.9 kW"
"Array Type: Fixed Tilt"
"Array Tilt:"," 38.8"
"Array Azimuth:","180.0"

"Energy Specifications"
"Cost of Electricity:"," 7.0 cents/kWh"

"Results"
"Month", "Solar Radiation (kWh/m^2/day)", "AC Energy (kWh)", "Energy Value ($)"
1, 3.69, 342, 23.94
2, 4.73, 388, 27.16
3, 5.10, 442, 30.94
4, 5.71, 464, 32.48
5, 5.58, 448, 31.36
6, 6.04, 464, 32.48
7, 5.97, 462, 32.34
8, 6.03, 467, 32.69
9, 5.47, 429, 30.03
10, 5.08, 429, 30.03
11, 3.56, 297, 20.79
12, 3.23, 289, 20.23
"Year", 5.02, 4921, 344.47

Those are your "nominal numbers" per month (52% system efficiency for off grid, you should not plan on using 100% of available "average" power per day). That is a nice size system.

I never set the clocks on anything anyway and never have anything on the computer that I am afraid of losing but if you are saying that the large quick draw on the batteries makes a 9000 watts of battery storage into a 4000 watt storage, I may need to get different priorities.

No, it is not that your batteries will be damaged or you are using power "inefficiently" at high loads--Because these loads are short term/low duty cycle (in general). The heating system circulation pumps may benefit with higher efficiency pumps.

Can I load this system reasonably enough to use my pv and revert to grid when I need to or will I cycle my batts to much and have nowhere to go with my production. I would like the well and furnace but am set on nothing.

I think you have enough power/storage to make a system do the basics here... But without the numbers--it is all a guess. I may use 200 to 300 kWH per month, and somebody else may use 1,000 kWH per month (or more if A/C). Don't know where you will fall.

Will I waste too much production with a 416 ah bank? If I don't care what I power, what is a good number of watt hours for the loads in the sub panel. What should be the split for day time watt hours compared to night time or will this not matter due to load shedding to hot watter.

A 416 AH @ 48 volt battery bank can be supported (off grid), assuming 5-13% rate of charge:

• 416 AH * 58 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller deratings * 0.05 rate of charge = 1,567 Watt array minimum
• 416 AH * 58 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller deratings * 0.10 rate of charge = 3,134 Watt array nominal

• 416 AH * 58 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller deratings * 0.13 rate of charge = 4,074 Watt array "cost effective maximum"

So, your 5.64 kW array is a bit on the large side--But if you use a fair amount of power during the day (water pumping, retired at home), I don't see this as being a big problem. It is not as if you will need a "large" battery bank as you have grid for backup 99% of the time.

And, you could add batteries later (or down the road in a few years) if you would like a larger bank--You certainly have the array to support it.

I would suggest that you make sure you have the Remote Battery Temperature Sensor(s) to ensure the battery bank does not over heat... And whatever your wind turbines supply will be interesting to see (are you going to log their AH generation?).

Ps I have Three ice boxes and two freezers and I usually only run one freezer most of the time. I wish I could do some supplemental ac during summer production but hot water (resistance load) seems to be able to be done with excess from battery charging but ac is all or nothing. I know I can't power everything unless I change my living or expand.

Next time you need a water heater--I would really look at the heat pump versions (or the retrofits if you want to try that now). You will get 2-3x the amount of heat per kWH, and they "exhaust" cold/dry air--Sounds like that would be a plus in your region.

Home Depot is asking near $750 for a 50 gallon natural gas water heater (with all of the California smog control and it looks like energy efficiency standards--and it needs 120 VAC to run the power damper energy saving unit)... "Simple" natural gas water heaters have about doubled in price in in something like a 1/2 dozen years.

-Bill

gww1

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Bill
I tried to start my "gas" generator at xmas and would not even fire with starting fluid. I have never used it for the house as everything I wanted to run was hard wired. I will get it going again but will just use the grid for backup for now.

I did perchase the sears dc clamp meter from a link you provided to someone else in a previous post. Thank you.

Are you planning on "stacking" the inverters for 120/240 VAC operation or using an auto transformer and 120 VAC paralleling of your Outback inverters for power (I think they support that--a bit out of my knowledge base).

I intend to stack the inverters "clasic master/slave" will have 240 volt with no transformer.

A 400-1,000 gallon storage tank with a small AC or DC pressure pump can always be backup too... Fill once or twice a week with the genset/well pump, then use the off grid system for 24x7 water pressurization (when grid is down).

My brother-in-law has about 400 gal. worth of 50 gal. pastic barrels collecting rain water from his house guttering. M grandma only had hand pumps and used to keep a barrel for rain water. I was thinking of collecting some rain water to use for battery maint.

PV watts shows me collecting about 10 kwh during winter. Maby I can start with about 8 kwh daily total in my sub panel and try for the heavy portion of use during the day and the exess sent to the hot water. Watch my batteries and pv production and see where I end up. Good starting spot?

I would suggest that you make sure you have the Remote Battery Temperature Sensor(s) to ensure the battery bank does not over heat... And whatever your wind turbines supply will be interesting to see (are you going to log their AH generation?).

I have temp sensers for the outback and the morningstar charge controllers. I am going to see if the morningstar will play well with the outbacks. I am going to set its voltage point higher then the outbacks and use it as a secondary divertion controller if my hot water oppertunity load fails to control the batteries voltage. I have a doc wattson that I am going to run at mid bank voltage to try and capture the turbines output.

Next time you need a water heater--I would really look at the heat pump versions (or the retrofits if you want to try that now). You will get 2-3x the amount of heat per kWH, and they "exhaust" cold/dry air--Sounds like that would be a plus in your region.

I wanted to try a heatpump or mini split ac but they have to be run all or nothing at the expence of the battery. I want to use the hot water heater to control the battery charging and my understanding is that with pure resistance load it can take all levels of voltage/current. It won't be effictiant, but may be better then shutting down the pv or turbines. I may have it wrong?

You have made me feel a bit better that I am not way out in left field as for as the overall system is concerned. As always your answers are very detailed and I thank you.

Start with 8 kwh in sub-panel?

Thanks
gww

BB.

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1 wrote: »

I intend to stack the inverters "classic master/slave" will have 240 volt with no transformer.

If you have substantial 240 VAC needs... This would be fine. However, if most your your needs will be 120 VAC--I wonder if an Auto Transformer and setting up the inverters in parallel (with the second one turning on for heavy loads) would be, over all, more efficient and easier to manage....

Somebody with more experience than I can probably help here (Chris Olson seems to have found the Auto Transformer addresses a whole bunch of inverter, and even generator, issues).

My brother-in-law has about 400 gal. worth of 50 gal. plastic barrels collecting rain water from his house guttering. M grandma only had hand pumps and used to keep a barrel for rain water. I was thinking of collecting some rain water to use for battery maint.

Filter the water, and I would suggest a diverter valve so you can collect clean water from a heavy rain (vs the first rains on a dirty/dusty roof). I would suggest a TDS meter (total dissolved solids) to ensure that your collected water is OK for battery use (you could even get a small deionizing/resin filter--they will last longer if they are feed relatively pure water to begin with). I always worry about the battery bank life with questionable water.

PV watts shows me collecting about 10 kwh during winter. Maybe I can start with about 8 kwh daily total in my sub panel and try for the heavy portion of use during the day and the excess sent to the hot water. Watch my batteries and pv production and see where I end up. Good starting spot?

They make some "cheaper" manual generator transfer switches (don't know anything about vendor/product) that would allow you to switch on a "per circuit" basis... Perhaps something like that would allow you easy flexibility to transfer loads to appropriate sources.

I wanted to try a heat pump or mini split ac but they have to be run all or nothing at the experience of the battery. I want to use the hot water heater to control the battery charging and my understanding is that with pure resistance load it can take all levels of voltage/current. It won't be efficient, but may be better then shutting down the pv or turbines. I may have it wrong?

Assuming your propane is not cheap at the present--Then getting 2-3x the hot water from the same kWH of power, plus free cooling/dehumidification, it would be hard for me to ignore.

You should compare costs for Grid Power vs Propane for hot water... If you get 2x the heat from your electricity, it may make hot water cheaper from grid power vs propane. Even if you don't move hot water to your off grid system.

Start with 8 kwh in sub-panel?

I would buy one of those manual generator transfer switches... Then the decision can be implemented with just the throw of a switch--And you can adjust based on your needs and amount of sun available that day.

-Bill

gww1

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Bill

If you have substantial 240 VAC needs... This would be fine. However, if most your your needs will be 120 VAC--I wonder if an Auto Transformer and setting up the inverters in parallel (with the second one turning on for heavy loads) would be, over all, more efficient and easier to manage....

I have the grid tie inverters. I will not sell but think that only outback offgrid inverters can be configured in parrallel to increese load handling. I "think?" I am correct on this.

Purifying the rain water: I thought as a further step of making an evaperator (glass over box and collect the water getherred from the glass run off. I am not against a filter if needed. I will have to look up tds meter and dionize filter.

They make some "cheaper" manual generator transfer switches (don't know anything about vendor/product) that would allow you to switch on a "per circuit" basis... Perhaps something like that would allow you easy flexibility to transfer loads to appropriate sources.

The link kept aborting when I tryed to go to it. I don't understand transfer switches yet. The outback sub-panel has a bypass switch that turns the inverter off and lets the grid pass through the sub-panel with out the inverter. I would love to be able to have my loads run by circuit from the grid or inverter depending on cost, but I am not advanced enough to figure that out yet.

Assuming your propane is not cheap at the present--Then getting 2-3x the hot water from the same kWH of power, plus free cooling/dehumidification, it would be hard for me to ignore.

You should compare costs for Grid Power vs Propane for hot water... If you get 2x the heat from your electricity, it may make hot water cheaper from grid power vs propane. Even if you don't move hot water to your off grid system.

Although the above makes very good sense and if I ever replace my propane hot water heater I will be looking in that direction. The real reason I was thinking of the preheat hot water was the easyest way to control the turbine power if it made too much. I was going to run it through the inverter with an ssr and figured it might eat a little of the pv power on good days that are above normal. Mostly to save the batteries on the turbines and better then a pure resistance divertion load as I get something. I would rather turn more circuits to the inverter when power is availible but the hot water keeps it alittle more seemless if I am not paying attention. I would rather load my system in a way that I get no hot water but this gives me latitude to adjust more slowly while I learn what is posible.

I would buy one of those manual generator transfer switches... Then the decision can be implemented with just the throw of a switch--And you can adjust based on your needs and amount of sun available that day.

I believe with the outback bypass switch I can go to pure grid easily if I "know?" I need to. I do want to try and set it up where I never need too use the grid for the stuff I have on the sub-panel. I can if I need it but I want to practice system management. Who knows I may go all the way off grid some day.

I might as well practice the off grid as, if I wanted to save money I would have jumped through the power companies hoops, took thier $2.00 per watt incentive, bought new equipment, no batteries and just went pure grid tie. That was my original plan.

inetdog

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1 wrote: »

The link kept aborting when I tryed to go to it. I don't understand transfer switches yet. The outback sub-panel has a bypass switch that turns the inverter off and lets the grid pass through the sub-panel with out the inverter. I would love to be able to have my loads run by circuit from the grid or inverter depending on cost, but I am not advanced enough to figure that out yet.

The link works for me. The type of transfer switch shown at that site is per-circuit.
Basically the generator side feeds to a bunch of pop-up (small one) or regular (larger number of circuits) circuit breakers. There is also a single-pole double throw switch for each circuit.

For generator use the switch connects the generator sub-breaker to a wire which goes back into your regular panel and from there out to that circuit load. (Using wire nuts to attach to the existing wire which was removed from the circuit breaker.

For grid use, the switch connects that same load wire to another wire which comes from the output side of the corresponding breaker in the main panel.
Many of these transfer centers include per-phase ammeters so that you can see as you transfer additional loads just how much you are pulling from the generator.

In your case, substitute inverter for generator in the description above.

gww1

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

inetdog

When I click the link it shows the site behind a little box that says internet can not connect to this site Abort. No matter how I close the abort box my screen goes to unable to connect blank screen.

These transfer switches sound really neat, expesually showing the amps. How cool is that. I have to go to bed now and will have to search this deeper. I can't quite understand you explination of wiring and may need to see a symatic of it. I will try and make time to research this. Working 7 days a week and 12 hrs sat and sun. Some say you need less sleep as you get older but I am not finding this to be so.

Thanks
gww

inetdog

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1 wrote: »

inetdog

When I click the link it shows the site behind a little box that says internet can not connect to this site Abort. No matter how I close the abort box my screen goes to unable to connect blank screen.

Sounds like the merchant has decided to only make the page visible in countries where they are approved.
Try getting to it via Google and looking at their cached copy of the page. Or just Google Reliance Controls Transfer Switch and look at the info on another site.

If you want to read the text, you can use View Source on your browser before you close the page.

BB.

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

I don't know why you cannot see the site (works on Windows and Android phone)... Any way, I just searched on Google for "manual generator transfer switch" and clicked on a site that had something like this (they want ~$370 dollars for this guy):

Attachment not found.

Connect the inverter(s) to the "generator socket"... On my cheap/6 circuit version, there where six wires from the transfer switch that I could wire into AC Main Breaker, and the other six outputs that I just wire nutted to the existing circuits. A bigger box like above may not have enough room in the main panel to make all those connections (or they may have 120/240 VAC YYY Amp buses).

Just make sure you respect the "red" and "black" 240 VAC circuits--Especially important if you have power circuits that share a common neutral wire as they leave the main panel (i.e., Red/Black/White/Ground)... If you connect the Red/Black to the same 240 "phase", the neutral will see 2x return currents.

-Bill

inetdog

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

BB. wrote: »

I don't know why you cannot see the site (works on Windows and Android phone)... Any way, I just searched on Google for "manual generator transfer switch" and clicked on a site that had something like this (they want ~$370 dollars for this guy):

Attachment not found.

Connect the inverter(s) to the "generator socket"... On my cheap/6 circuit version, there where six wires from the transfer switch that I could wire into AC Main Breaker, and the other six outputs that I just wire nutted to the existing circuits. A bigger box like above may not have enough room in the main panel to make all those connections (or they may have 120/240 VAC YYY Amp buses).

Careful with your language Bill. The six wires have to go to the six individual breakers that you removed the load wires from, otherwise there will not be any overcurrent protection when in the Grid position.
If you had said "wire into the main breaker panel" I would not take issue. But they must not connect directly to the Main Breaker (input) terminals or the bus itself.

These usually offer the option of one or two paired circuits with handle ties on the transfer switch that can be used for 240 volt loads. Just feed the associated red and black wires into the two load terminals of the 240 breaker in the main panel.

In your photo, the four positions on the left can be used as two 240 volt circuits. The generator breakers are dual breakers and the transfer switches have handle ties installed. As long as there is dual breaker on the generator side, you must tie the two transfer switch handles together also. If you feed one side of the 240 from the grid and the other side from the generator, you will really confuse your 240 volt loads and you will also potentially double the current in the common neutral in the case of 120 volt loads. This can happen even when you took the correct pair of wires from the Main Panel.

BB.

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Yes, each wire went to a single breaker. And my transfer switch had a per circuit breaker also to support the "generator" bus over current protection.

-Bill

gww1

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Bill and inetdog
Thanks for your responces. I will look up the tds meter, water filter and generator transfer switches. I have been studying hard and learning due to you guys. I feel much better about the direction I am going. Now if I don't rush too much or get to sloppy, I think I will eventually get it going fairly well. I am sure I will be back with more questions as I go along. It is great when I get told of things or avenues that I didn't know even exsisted. Now I guess it is up to me.
Thanks
gww

PS I got about $10,200 actual cash in this so for and don't think I will get the rest done for less then $5000 or more. I am hoping I get close to something good. I also hope my used inverters work well. Time will tell.

gww1

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

I knew this would happen. Every time I try to add something I get a bunch more questions. So here goes. I think I have a 150 amp service in my home. I can't remember if the outback ac sub-panel had two 125 amp main breakers or two 175 amp breakers. I know the installation manual said to run from the main house grid panel, a dual 60 amp maximum breaker to the inverter. I "believe?" the inverters can put out 30 amps each but the outback ac sub-panel can be powered higher with the grid helping the inverter support the loads. I was going to take power from the electric panel in my garage to the inverter and then run the power from the outback sub-panel to another sub-panel in the house that I was going to transfer the loads from my main house panel to.

I was looking at this one:

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200196374_200196374

It says 15000 watts generator and 60 amp from grid. If I were to use this, I would hook the outback inverter sub-panel to this panel as the generator and would hook the grid portion from the main house panel. Is this twelve circuit box meaning up to twelve 60 amp circuits from the house panel or is it a bunch of 5 amp circuits that add up to 60 amps?

What do I have to watch to not violate the ratings of my origional panels?

Do I even make sense with my questions?

I don't know what to buy that I can for sure use.

Thanks
gww

Cariboocoot

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

It's twelve standard AC breakers: 15 Amps each. The main is 60 Amp.

Kind of overkill because an Outback 3648 is 3600 Watts: the equivalent of two standard 15 Amp breakers.

Mine is connected to a 6 breaker sub-panel with 4 slots filled, and that only because it made the wiring easier not because I expect to put 90 Amps through it.

gww1

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Question answer from manufactuer.

The types of breakers that can be used with this switch are as follows: Siemens Types QP, QT, QPH, HQP, QPF, QPHF, QFP, QE, QEH, Square D Series HOM, SH/Westinghouse Series BD, BR, BQ, GFC, and Murray Type MP. No additional breakers are required. Breakers pre-wired into the switch will include 1 each of a 50, 30, and 20 amp double pole, and 3 15 amp single poles. Both your utility and supplemental(generator) power will be wired through this, and a switch will isolate power so it only allows it from one source. Always contact a qualified electrician for proper installation.

Does this mean 3 240 volt cercuits?

gww

Cariboocoot

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1 wrote: »

Question answer from manufactuer.

Does this mean 3 240 volt cercuits?

gww

Yes; double pole breakers are for 240 VAC.
But since it seems to take every standard breaker type you should be able to reconfigure it any way you wish (i.e. replace the double poles with singles).

gww1

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

coot
I posted before I saw your post. I will need some 240 volt due to the well and me wanting to load shed to the water heater and depending if I have some other 240 volt load. I have two inverters, is it still overkill? If i ever add more solar and batts would I need This panel? I don't think I will use all the circuits at once but may need to play to get proper loading. I don't really want overkill as long as I don't have to do it twice.

Adding from the inverter sub-panel will be hard cause my shead is about 60' from my house.

I welcome more comments cause I know I am a dummy. I also am not made of money.

Thanks
gww

ps You posted again while I was typing. I am a very slow typer.

Cariboocoot

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Okay, two 3648 inverters can be configured for 30 Amps @ 240 VAC or 60 Amps @ 120 VAC depending on whether they are series stacked or parallel stacked. You can also parallel them and drive an autotransformer to get 240 VAC which gives you "the best of both worlds" as any leg imbalance becomes a non-issue.

Confused yet? Seen the manual on all the various configurations possible? There's lots!

If you series stack for 240 VAC both inverters run all the time, drawing about 48 Watts constant.
If you parallel stack the second inverter will "standby" drawing only 6 Watts until needed for extra power (whether utilized as 120 VAC or with the transformer for 240 VAC).

The AC distribution panel you use is a matter of how much inverter is feeding it, not how much battery/panel is feeding the inverter. If you add more inverter capacity later it might be necessary to have a larger panel. But frankly four VFX3648's would be a lot of output: 60 Amps @ 240 VAC, the max for that panel you linked to. You probably won't go there.

And no, most of the time the circuits will not be anyplace near capacity (count the 15 Amp breakers in a household box and compare that to the main breaker size). The other determining factor is how many circuits you want to have independent: one for each room, say. It is my experience that the inverter will fault from overload before the breakers will trip.

You are not a dummy just because you don't have "EE" to your name: Education and Experience. We all acquire that the hard way.

gww1

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

coot

If you series stack for 240 VAC both inverters run all the time, drawing about 48 Watts constant.
If you parallel stack the second inverter will "standby" drawing only 6 Watts until needed for extra power (whether utilized as 120 VAC or with the transformer for 240 VAC).

I have the "G" inverters. I frequent the outback tec forum pretty often. I am almost sure that the "G" inverters can not be run in paralell with a 240 watt transformer. If I am wrong, and I will try to look, I like the ideal.

From the site I posted, The 30 amp six circuit panel seems to be about $80.00 Cheaper.

I doubt I will ever get end up with four outback inverters. I was thingking that if I ever add again it might be with a pure grid tie inverter and ac coupling. I may never add either.

Mostly I am very close to installing and I wan't to get everything that I need, except batteries, on hand so nothing is extending how long it takes to put together. I have been working on this for a couple years and think I am getting close.

It doesn't help working from memory and not being on site where I can re-look at things I need to know. On the other hand when I get there I am going to go to work. I will have the installation manuals and such to help finnish up. I am hoping to have the hardware on hand, expesually the stuff that can't just be got at a big box store.

I do wonder if I shouldn't try to wire most of my house loads to the generator box even if I don't end up using them as it may give me flexabilitie to adjust loads around to match the power I produce and the abilitie to be highly adjustable as a learning tool.

If you were the installer and wanted to match my equiptment would you sugjest the 6 circuit one for $80 less?

Thanks
gww

PS I am at work while typing this and cannot research stuff due to the administration of the computers here.

Cariboocoot

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

You are correct: the 'G' inverters are meant for grid-tie applications and can only be series stacked. Thus your options are limited to one: 30 Amps (actually 25 for output) @ 240 Volt.

This is one of the reasons not to pick 'G' inverters for off-grid applications. If you want to go above this power level you need to get a Radian.

I have to say that this thread is a prime example of how not to do it. All of your difficulties in choosing how to wire the output are based on coming up with some equipment and then trying to figure out what you can run with it as opposed to determining what you need to run and then coming up with the equipment to do it. That's where your headache comes from.

Since you have need of 240 Volts, wire for that 'first'. Consider what those loads will take, supply them (so to speak), and then see how much available power will be left over. For instance a water pump may require a 5 Amps @ 240 VAC. Take that out and the rest can be for 120 VAC circuits. The number of circuits at one 15 Amp breaker each is not as important as the actual power demand. As I said the inverters will fault first anyway.

This is close to what I am using on my system: http://www.homedepot.ca/product/100-amp-qo-sub-panel-loadcentre-with-6-spaces-12-circuits-maximum/901449

Note: no main breaker.

This is about the smallest available here: http://www.homedepot.ca/product/60a-sub-panel-multi-application-loadcentre-with-2-4-circuits-main-lug-1-pha/941188

Ultimately the number of circuits will be determined by how much you want/need to divide up the power feed; the output will be limited by the inverters and all the available boxes are rated 60 Amps or more.

gww1

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Coot

I have to say that this thread is a prime example of how not to do it. All of your difficulties in choosing how to wire the output are based on coming up with some equipment and then trying to figure out what you can run with it as opposed to determining what you need to run and then coming up with the equipment to do it. That's where your headache comes from.

I have to say that I have been told this more then once. In my defence, I had no ideal I even wanted to do this. I was building ceiling fan turbines and expermenting with junk to try and make a wind turbine when my plant closed down. I had to move to a different state to finnish my work years. When I got here I moved 5 mins away from my new plant and lost three hours of drive time per day. I was no longer by a lake in my back yard and couldn't go out and cut a load of wood.

I did it all backwards due to boredom. I built a bunch of solar and two wind turbines in a spare bedroom and back patio. I regreet the solar but like the turbines.

I used a couple of chineese gti's and played a bit. Then I saw the inverters on craigs list for $1500. It had the mounting, ac/dc sub panels, mate, hub 10 and mx60. I couldn't resist. Then I bought some solar to fill it. Then I checked out my utility conection agreement. It would accept no home made items and you needed to buy new equip. So I switched again and said heck with them I want my turbines. I don't think my turbines will do much for me but building them kept me from going batty.

I did much that didn't work. I also had no ideal I was going to get hooked. I know I know more then I knew then cause now I know "earth for energy" that is sold for $40 is a scam (at least in my mind).

I didn't and don't know anyone with wind or solar.

It is four years later and I am heading home with whatever toys I have bought. I will try to make the best of it.

I will look up the links you provided when I get home tonight. Just think how bad it would be for me if you guys quit answering my questions.

I should have highlighted that last sentence.
Thanks
gww

ps modoc says g inverters work better for gen support funtions with an inverter gen. Also when you buy used, sometime things don't work.

NorthGuy

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1 wrote: »

I didn't and don't know anyone with wind or solar.

It is four years later and I am heading home with whatever toys I have bought. I will try to make the best of it.

I also usead a gradual approach. I had some idea of the final system, but not much details. It is difficult for me to install everything and then flip the switch. I buy something, install it and see how it works. Then, when I know more about the behaviour of the installed part I move forward.

I first installed a manual transfer switch, so that I could switch between grid and my own power (which I didn't have).

Then I bought the generator and installed it. It made an oily mess because breather bolts were not tightened up and it took me few days to repair it. Finally, it started working. It didn't give me rated power, but otherwise was Ok. I wired it in into my transfer switch and got a long power outage right away. The generator did its job very well.

Then I installed inverter, but couldn't do much with it until I got batteries. I buit a box and connected all together. Everything worked fine except the inverter was only 85% efficient, compared to 94% advertized. I called support, they sent me a new inverter, which also was 85% efficient. They said this was because of measurement errors. It'll take me a while to put a monitoring system in place to check the efficiency. But otherwise, inverter worked Ok.

Then I had to install panels. I started mid-summer, but it took a lot of work - poles, mounts, cutting and anodizing brakets, mounting panels 18ft above the ground. It was winter when I finally installed them. I missed my measurements by few degrees and as a result they were mostly shaded for about a month in the depth of winter. I finished installation right at the beginning of this period. It looked as a disaster to me at the time, but it's not that bad actually because it was only 5 sunny days during the shadwing period, and there's no better place anywhere near the house anyway.

Then I turned my attention to batteries. I had huge problems with charging them even though I had a grid available. It took me three months and a lot of pain to find at least something that could charge the batteries. I'm probably shortening their life, but they're charging somehow. I'll need to work more to tune their charging.

After this, I had enough to disconnect from the grid. I bought a backup generator, wired an inlet for it and disconnected the grid wires. I was ready to part with power company, called them and told them I want them to remove their line. Now I'm having troubles with them. For some reason, they want me to sign an agreement that says that they are going keep and maintain the power line on my land for $75/month. When I refuse, they say they cannot remove their wires because I didn't sign the agreement. Very funny, actually. Don't know how long it's going to take to finish this.

And, finally, I'm now working on the controller that will tie all the pieces together and automate all the tasks. That, as you can guess, is taking much longer than I thought, but it's coming together.

Perhaps, that would be a good approach for you too. Install something (such as distribution panel), make sure it's working, then move to the next part. That'll make the whole process a lot easaier.

Cariboocoot

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

I'm not chastising, just pointing out that this is the sort of problems anyone will have doing it "sideways" as it were. You are not only learning (albeit the hard way) but also helping others to learn as they will be able to read your experiences and perhaps avoid some difficulties that otherwise would frustrate and bankrupt them.

If I were you I'd pick the essential items to run off solar in case the grid goes down and use the system for that. You don't eve have to wait for the grid failure; flip the grid breaker off and see how well your solar works for you. If it ever fails you can always turn utility power back on. When you're out in the middle of nowhere that is not an option!

You could also try using it for running things that consume lots of Watt hours and see how it manages that task. This will reduce your electric bill and show you how hard it is to handle power hogs off grid. So long as you are not averse to stringing extension cords this sort of temporary wiring is not difficult. When you're experimenting not everything has to be hard wired, just current protected.

gww1

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

Northguy
I read your battery post. You are now absorbing at about equalization voltages like Chris O does. That is the correct post isn't it?

I really don't see that much differance in what I am doing even though it is backwards. I know most find the loads first but that would have stoped me dead in my tracks cause I could only go home twice a year during vacation and didn't have access/time to measure them. I tried to get stuff that played well together and don't really care to much what loads I cover cause I can't cover them all no mater what.

I paid cash as I went and want to maximise what I get but there was some enjoyment in the buying and thinking prosses also. I was thinking from my knowlage level and location. As bad as it is, it is my best. Even my previous screw ups are already payed for. Except the siding I had a turbine come down on, ha ha.

I built a solar rack in a week on vacation and I know it is not done. You have to do something though or nothing ever gets done.

I am so dumb that when you mention a load distrabution center, I don't really know what you are talking about.

I say I alot, don't I.

I also want to get done as much as I can and then use it abit so everything is no longer hypothetical but atleast a real situation.

If I had my money back I might be able to come up with something better now but I might be scared to spend that much all at once.

Good luck on your dealings with the electric co.

I also, when dealing with the electric company just didn't like the feeling. I just looked and never even talked to them. I do believe it is better money wise to sell to the grid but I just didn't want the hassle. I guess I am lazy on things that just don't interest me.

I wish I could cover all loads but figure that this will be my trial system to learn what it will do and how much effort it is to keep up with. Under those conditions it really doesn't matter what loads that I am using that are covered if I can cover them well and learn. I do think it would be nice to flush the toilets if there is no power though.

I really apreciate those who have tried to help me in spite of myself.

Thanks
gww

BB.

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

NorthGuy wrote: »

For some reason, they want me to sign an agreement that says that they are going keep and maintain the power line on my land for $75/month. When I refuse, they say they cannot remove their wires because I didn't sign the agreement. Very funny, actually. Don't know how long it's going to take to finish this.

Out of curiosity--Are they going to charge you $75 per month or pay you a ground lease at $75 per month? Do they have an easement for your property?

Out here in the good old USA--The utility probably can put a mechanic's lean on a home to collect that $75 per month if they wanted--with or without signatures (I got a few of those filed on my home because somebody wrote the wrong address on the paper work--deliveries were for a home across the street)... It would would be up to the home owner if they wanted to hire a lawyer to fight the charge.

-Bill

westbranch

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

I am so dumb that when you mention a load distrabution center, I don't really know what you are talking about.

commonly refered to as the fuse box in your home...

NorthGuy

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

gww1 wrote: »

I read your battery post. You are now absorbing at about equalization voltages like Chris O does. That is the correct post isn't it?

Yeah. That would be me.

gww1 wrote: »

I know most find the loads first but that would have stoped me dead in my tracks cause I could only go home twice a year during vacation and didn't have access/time to measure them.

I think it's probably too late for that. You bought most of your stuff, so you cannot re-size much.

I was just suggesting installing the stuff little-by-little starting from the things that can work right away. Then see how it works, do measurements, figure out how to connect next part of the puzzle. It goes easier when you see stuff working rather than different pieces installed here and there.

gww1 wrote: »

I am so dumb that when you mention a load distrabution center, I don't really know what you are talking about.

Like WB said, a fuse box, or breaker box.

NorthGuy

Re: Ideals for using the stuff in my signature/loads

BB. wrote: »

Out of curiosity--Are they going to charge you $75 per month or pay you a ground lease at $75 per month? Do they have an easement for your property?

Right now they don't have any easements or rights of way. Didn't sign any contracts neither.

I sent them a letter telling that I terminate services and want the power line removed. I also signed the form for removing services from my land. The lady said that this has to be approved by the Board of Directors, and for them to consider this I need to sign an idle agreement first. This agreement is very short and is as follow: - they keep their line on my land. I give them right of way to maintain it (which includes building other lines on my land at their will for their other customers). I pay them a maintenance fee (not specified, lady said $75/month). Right of way remains in effect even if the agreement is terminated and power line removed.

That's no way I can sign this. If I do and the Board doesn't approve line removal, I'm stuck with both the power line and fees.