Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

PorkChopsMmm
PorkChopsMmm Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
We have a shallow well jet pump hooked up to a ~44 gallon pressure tank. It works great but sometimes at night when just finishing the dishes or washing hands, etc, the pump kicks on due to low pressure. It runs for ~10 or 15 minutes drawing 700 watts all the while. This can be a serious drain on our battery bank over night, especially if the afternoon lacked sun. I am thinking of putting a 24 hour timer in our pump house so that the pump can only come on from, say, 7 AM to 6 PM. We don't use too much water after those hours.

Does anyone else do this? A reason why I shouldn't? If there was a compelling reason to use a lot of water while the timer was in the off position it would be tricky to get too -- need to go outside, lift the roof on the pump house, etc.

Thanks!
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    I sort of do it: the water pump is only turned on during the day when the batteries are full and the sun is producing or else when the generator is going. Only I don't use a timer, just a switch (allows more flexibility, just in case. No reason why you can't use a timer though. One of those designed for hot water heaters would be in order, as the pump can draw quite a bit of current.

    Something else you might want to do: add another pressure tank if there's room. At typical pump performance it does not take long to fill these things, and it would reduce the number of pump cycles. Some may think 88 gallons of PT would be a lot, and it is. But if it works for you ...
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  • peakbagger
    peakbagger Solar Expert Posts: 341 ✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    If your system leaks down overnight or someone flushes the toilet so the pressure drops too low, you could have a issue if you have a "pump protector" installed on the control circuit. I have one on my deep well pump inside the capacitor box and it basically tries to guess if there are poblems with the system and shuts it down. One of th emany things it does is assumes that operation below a minimum pressure for any period of time assumes the piping is broke. In order to repressurize the system i have to cycel the pump on and off manually a few times to get it over the cut off point. I am not sure if they are used on jet pumps but lots of deep pumps have them.
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  • PorkChopsMmm
    PorkChopsMmm Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    I think it is working correctly -- for example we use most of the 20 gallons of water or so that is contained in the 44 gallon pressure tank. I would just prefer we run out of water than have the pump run. The switch is a good idea -- that way I can turn it back on from inside the house. I might also mess with the pressure switch to allow the pressure to drop more before the pump kicks on.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    Pressure switches have a fixed range, so if you lower the "ON" you also lower the "OFF". Frankly it's almost impossible to tell the difference between 50 psi and 40 psi for usage.

    If you do lower the "ON" setting you have to change the air pressure in the tank too.
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  • PorkChopsMmm
    PorkChopsMmm Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    Good point. Looks like I will stick with switching it off or using a timer. It's great that we can use the water without the pump turning on most of the time but when it does turn on, boy, do you notice it. I have a small 5 gallon pressure tank that is built into the pump -- this 44 gallon sits inline with it. Prior to having the 44 gallon tank the pump would run whenever the water was turned on. So we are in a much better spot but I would prefer it just didn't run after dark.
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  • Endurance
    Endurance Solar Expert Posts: 40 ✭
    #7
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    I like the idea of a timer. I know I'm not as smart as Marc and I must not have as good a memory either. I could see myself in bed at 10:00 asking my wife, "Did you turn the pump off?" Putting the pump on a timer would give me one less thing to remember. As Forest Gump said when he found out he would be rich for the rest of his life, "That's one less thing" to worry about. If you're going to the trouble of running a switch loop to a convenient location, you could leave the timer at the pump and use the switch as a "manual on" for those rare times when you want to shower at midnight.
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  • Rybren
    Rybren Solar Expert Posts: 351 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    'Coot,

    Out of curiosity, what pump are you running and what size pressure tank do you have? My new system will be similar to yours (24V 232-ish AH). I have tbeen thinking of using a 110V Shurflo 2088, but am open to alternatives - I will be drawing from a lake.

    Thanks

    -Jerry
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?
    Rybren wrote: »
    'Coot,

    Out of curiosity, what pump are you running and what size pressure tank do you have? My new system will be similar to yours (24V 232-ish AH). I have tbeen thinking of using a 110V Shurflo 2088, but am open to alternatives - I will be drawing from a lake.

    Thanks

    -Jerry

    My system can no longer be duplicated as you can't get 1/3 HP shallow-well pumps anymore. :cry:
    The PT is a Diamond 33 gallon, which apparently also is no longer available (got from HD and they don't list them now).

    I chose a standard water pump because I can fix/replace it in town if I have to. When this one goes I found a source of 1/2 HP pumps I like: http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/5770077/Jet-Pumps/1/2-HP-Shallow-Well-Jet-Pump These use higher RPM (3450) motors and the one I put in I found uses less power than the one it replaced.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    The pump power and time seem odd. It should not take 15 min after shutting off the sink, to pump the tank back up, unless you have a really deep well and tiny (700w) pump. Are the rotors/seals OK on it ? A 44 gallon tank, only holds 21 gal of water, rest is air chamber.
    I use a timer in series with my float switch, that controls a contactor. I have a gravity feed system for pressure all the time, till the 12,000 gallons in tanks runs out. I limit pumping to hours the sun is out, to run off the panels (100%), and not the batteries (60%).

    I'd ensure that your pump is OK, and then add another pressure tank to it, to get through the night.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    No problem shutting off via a timer or the breaker. That said, I would look to see how well the pump is functioning. It sounds too long for as few gallons as you are getting. My little shureflo submersible pumps a similar size tank in less than ten minutes using 13 amps, 12 vdc. Pumping to 60 psi. Once the p tank calls for water at 30, there is still a lot of water in the tank.

    Tony
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  • PorkChopsMmm
    PorkChopsMmm Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    I think I need to bite the bullet and buy the Watt Plot software for my Outback Equipment. The VisualMATE program is free and shows live data but does not capture historical information. I need to let things run for a few days as-is and then see how long the pump is running. I work full time and so I don't really know how often it runs when I am at work. It generally only runs once a night for 10 or 15 minutes (my guess) and it only runs when we use the water -- e.g. it's not leaking. We wash a lot of dishes at night after dinner and I would rather we run out of water or get less pressure instead of the pump turning on.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?
    PorkChopsMmm wrote: »
    We have a shallow well jet pump hooked up to a ~44 gallon pressure tank. It works great but sometimes at night when just finishing the dishes or washing hands, etc, the pump kicks on due to low pressure. It runs for ~10 or 15 minutes drawing 700 watts all the while.

    I've worked with pumps most of my life, and from the info you present, it's my opinion that there is something very wrong with your system.
    700 watts indicates you likely have a 1/2 HP Jet pump, yet it's only delivering between 80 and 120 gallons per hour. NOT good! What is the difference in vertical level between the surface of the water in the well, and the location of the pump? If it's over 20 or so feet, the pump could be pulling a partial vacuum due to normal resistance in the supply line being added to the weight of the water. Beyond that, if the water supply line is too small in diameter, or too long for it's diameter, it could be presenting too much resistance, thus partially starving the pump for water. Jet pumps also have a restrictor valve that restricts the water it delivers to your system, thereby withholding enough water flow and pressure to operate the jet. If this valve is improperly adjusted, it could be withholding too much water, not releasing enough to your system. Another possibility is the use of galvanized or iron pipe fittings anywhere in your system. They will fill up with rust as time goes by and eventually, may close off to the point where water flow is down to a trickle. Same thing will happen if a small pebble or chunk of rust is caught in the jet nozzle. At the VERY LEAST, your pump should be delivering 250 GPH, and perhaps more. If it was delivering 250 GPH, it would only take 5 minutes max to supply 20 gallons.
    My antique 1/4 hp piston pump (shown in the little photo) draws roughly 350 watts, and pumps 350 GPH, so would supply your 20 gallons in just 3.5 minutes. And that's with the well 250 feet from the house and a water level over 20 feet below the pump.
    I'd definitely have a good look at that pump system, something stinks.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    Valid points. My 1/3 HP pump will fill the tank in 6 minutes tops.
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  • Rybren
    Rybren Solar Expert Posts: 351 ✭✭
    #15
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    My system can no longer be duplicated as you can't get 1/3 HP shallow-well pumps anymore. :cry:
    The PT is a Diamond 33 gallon, which apparently also is no longer available (got from HD and they don't list them now).

    I chose a standard water pump because I can fix/replace it in town if I have to. When this one goes I found a source of 1/2 HP pumps I like: http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/5770077/Jet-Pumps/1/2-HP-Shallow-Well-Jet-Pump These use higher RPM (3450) motors and the one I put in I found uses less power than the one it replaced.

    Thanks for the info and link.
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  • PorkChopsMmm
    PorkChopsMmm Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    Thanks guys -- I need to verify how long it is running. I also wonder if my small attached 5 gallon pressure tank might be going bad. I had to refill it with air once -- maybe it is down again. When it was low on air it would run a lot and not pull water the way it should. So maybe it is taking longer to fill the larger tank?
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?
    PorkChopsMmm wrote: »
    Thanks guys -- I need to verify how long it is running. I also wonder if my small attached 5 gallon pressure tank might be going bad. I had to refill it with air once -- maybe it is down again. When it was low on air it would run a lot and not pull water the way it should. So maybe it is taking longer to fill the larger tank?

    When the air is reduced, or goes out of the tank, the pump will start often and run only a very short time. Worst cast is start stop start stop start stop at least once a second whenever you partly open a tap. Properly pre-presured (with air) tank, pump will run longer and stay off longer.
    5 gal tank is too small at the best of times, a lot of starts and stops compared to a larger tank.
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?
    PorkChopsMmm wrote: »
    Thanks guys -- I need to verify how long it is running. I also wonder if my small attached 5 gallon pressure tank might be going bad. I had to refill it with air once -- maybe it is down again. When it was low on air it would run a lot and not pull water the way it should. So maybe it is taking longer to fill the larger tank?

    You can avoid that problem by installing an air insertion valve in the inlet pipe of the tank, or by getting a tank which has a rubber diaphragm separating the air space from the water space.
    But that will not avoid the problem of the tank being too small. If you already have a diaphragm tank and you had to add air through the air valve, then the diaphragm is leaking. If you could add air just by draining the tank completely and then refilling it, then you do not have a diaphragm.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • PorkChopsMmm
    PorkChopsMmm Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    Looks like I provided confusing information.

    We have a 1/2hp shallow well pump with a built in 5 gallon pressure tank. That worked fine for a while but I didn't like that the pump ran basically whenever we used water. It ran a lot but only for short periods of time. I installed in-line a 44 gallon pressure tank. So now I have a 5 gallon pressure tank and a 44 gallon pressure tank in line with one another both have rubber bladders. Works well, holds tons of water, rarely comes on. When it does come on it runs longer. I don't think I have leaks, there is not a loss of pressure, and it doesn't come on randomly -- only when we use a lot of water. I am just looking for ways for it to not come on -- even with pressure is low. Looks like a timer is what I am looking for. Thanks guys.
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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?

    I have a submersible pump in a well and a small booster pump sourced by a 3000gal tank. The tank used to have a jet pump on it. As it aged it would produce less water ie longer run times (impeller wear would reduce efficiency). I can't rmember if it had to be primed if it was powered off and water pressure dropped to zero. Something to think about...will you need to prime again?

    \ralph
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: Putting well pressure tank on timer -- any reason not to?
    Ralph Day wrote: »
    I have a submersible pump in a well and a small booster pump sourced by a 3000gal tank. The tank used to have a jet pump on it. As it aged it would produce less water ie longer run times (impeller wear would reduce efficiency). I can't rmember if it had to be primed if it was powered off and water pressure dropped to zero. Something to think about...will you need to prime again?

    \ralph

    The typical jet pump will have a foot valve and check valves that hold water in the jet pipe and in the impeller between uses. If there is no water for the jet pump to send down the well, there will be nothing pushing the well water back up in higher volume.
    Not quite sure why you would want to use a jet pump on a storage tank unless the tank is so tall that a suction pump could not draw water all the way from the bottom of the tank. Putting a submersible pump into a tank usually requires a cylindrical tube around it to concentrate the water flow to cool the motor.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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