Is this possible

rimzan
rimzan Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭
in Grid Tie and Grid Interactive Systems #1
Hi,

Utility company doubled the electricity bill last week which is totally unfair,,i have an idea to reduce the bill by plugin in a 3 kv inverter in to to mains out let thru a DC12V 40A transformer then the house load in to to the inverter..
without using any solar panel or battery bank.. in this setup the mains line is only used to power up the 12v transformer ..is this possible? load is used to power up around 10cfl bulbs a refrigerate and couple of Celine fans,,

Let me know you expert opinions guyz


thanks in advance
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Comments

  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Is this possible
    rimzan wrote: »
    Hi,

    Utility company doubled the electricity bill last week which is totally unfair,,i have an idea to reduce the bill by plugin in a 3 kv inverter in to to mains out let thru a DC12V 40A transformer then the house load in to to the inverter..
    without using any solar panel or battery bank.. in this setup the mains line is only used to power up the 12v transformer ..is this possible? load is used to power up around 10cfl bulbs a refrigerate and couple of Celine fans,,

    Let me know you expert opinions guyz


    thanks in advance

    My expert opinion is that you do not understand enough about electricity at this time to allow us to explain anything to you. The basic principle that you need to know is that you cannot get something for nothing.

    A 3kW (I hope not 3kV) inverter run from 12 volts DC will require closer to 300 amps, not 40 amps.
    And a transformer cannot have DC as either its input or its output.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Is this possible

    and couple of Celine fans,,


    Never having been a Celine Dion fan I have no idea how much energy it would take to power one...how much power for a pace maker?

    Utility bills usually double when consumption goes up drastically, new a/c, new electric heating etc.

    Ralph
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Is this possible
    rimzan wrote: »
    Hi,

    Utility company doubled the electricity bill last week which is totally unfair,,i have an idea to reduce the bill by plugin in a 3 kv inverter in to to mains out let thru a DC12V 40A transformer then the house load in to to the inverter..
    without using any solar panel or battery bank.. in this setup the mains line is only used to power up the 12v transformer ..is this possible? load is used to power up around 10cfl bulbs a refrigerate and couple of Celine fans,,

    Let me know you expert opinions guyz


    thanks in advance

    Was this a doubling of the rates, or did you just hit some consumption level.


    Remember there is no free lunch, no matter how you wire it the power comes from someplace.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Is this possible

    Is it any wonder ??

    " The Chevrolet Malibu Eco Defies Gravity "
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Is this possible
    rimzan wrote: »
    in this setup the mains line is only used to power up the 12v transformer ..is this possible? load is used to power up around 10cfl bulbs a refrigerate and couple of Celine fans,,

    Let me know you expert opinions guyz


    thanks in advance

    Actually, if he was talking about wrapping a wire around a mains line, then feeding it to a transformer is possible, but also qualify as theft of power, I do believe. It would also come with a serious risk of being electrocuted. Also, there would have to be significant current flowing through the line to pick up anything worthwhile. Not recommended and I don't think that's what he was referring to, in any case.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Is this possible
    rimzan wrote: »
    Hi,

    Utility company doubled the electricity bill last week which is totally unfair,,i have an idea to reduce the bill by plugin in a 3 kv inverter in to to mains out let thru a DC12V 40A transformer then the house load in to to the inverter..
    without using any solar panel or battery bank.. in this setup the mains line is only used to power up the 12v transformer ..is this possible? load is used to power up around 10cfl bulbs a refrigerate and couple of Celine fans,,

    Let me know you expert opinions guyz


    thanks in advance

    Welcome to the forum.

    I apologize for needlessly flippant remarks made by some of the members here. *ahem*

    No, you would gain nothing powering an inverter from the mains; the power used is the power used regardless of what Voltage and current it is used at. In fact you would use more power because the inverter itself consumes some.

    It is correct that you can not power an inverter from the mains directly through a power supply; it would not be a stable enough source. 3000 Watts (3 kW) on 12 Volts could draw up to 300 Amps, which you would not find a power supply capable up. Do not confuse 'power supply' with 'transformer'; transformers are AC only and do not supply DC. You are probably thinking of the kind of power supply that gets (inaccurately) referred to as a transformer.

    If your billing issue is a matter of when you draw the power (time of use billing) it is possible to shift the usage to off-peak rates in a manner such as this. It is, however, not very practical. Large, efficient inverter-charger and a battery bank to back it up would cost thousands.

    Your best expense would be a Kill-A-Watt meter for about $30. Buy it, use it, learn how much power everything you plug into the wall takes. Figure out what to switch off and what to replace. Conservation will always give you a better payback than anything else.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Is this possible
    northerner wrote: »
    Actually, if he was talking about wrapping a wire around a mains line, then feeding it to a transformer is possible, but also qualify as theft of power, I do believe. It would also come with a serious risk of being electrocuted. Also, there would have to be significant current flowing through the line to pick up anything worthwhile. Not recommended and I don't think that's what he was referring to, in any case.
    At any rate, if he did that to lines inside his meter and it actually worked, he would still get charged for the power. Conservation of Energy, and all that.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #9
    Re: Is this possible

    There was a show on HDTV with Mike Holmes. He got a house which was rented and used by drug growers. They needed a lot of energy, but they didn't want to alert anyone, so they made a huge hole in the basement wall and connected directly to underground utility power line.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Is this possible
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    There was a show on HDTV with Mike Holmes. He got a house which was rented and used by drug growers. They needed a lot of energy, but they didn't want to alert anyone, so they made a huge hole in the basement wall and connected directly to underground utility power line.

    BC Hydro (and other companies) go around looking for that sort of thing. They know which distribution lines have current draw that doesn't match billing for the area, and the drive around with their eyes open. At times they get out and clamp on the Ammeter to any house on the list with low or no draw. Turns up a lot of grow-ops (#1 agricultural industry in B.C.).
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Is this possible
    ggunn wrote: »
    At any rate, if he did that to lines inside his meter and it actually worked, he would still get charged for the power. Conservation of Energy, and all that.


    It would have to be a main transmission line, but as mentioned is not legal and run the serious risk of being electrocuted. In that case, it would not be picked up by measuring current through the normal wiring into the home. It would be rather obvious if on an overhead line, however. (unless you got your hands on some of that invisible, light bending cloth. :p)
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  • rimzan
    rimzan Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭
    #12
    Re: Is this possible

    Thanks for your nice explanation im all new to electricity but a fast learner...google bought me here and liked it.. as i am a supporter of green energy i could learn lot of things here thank you all for your time ..

    i have lot to to learn..
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Welcome to the forum.

    I apologize for needlessly flippant remarks made by some of the members here. *ahem*

    No, you would gain nothing powering an inverter from the mains; the power used is the power used regardless of what Voltage and current it is used at. In fact you would use more power because the inverter itself consumes some.

    It is correct that you can not power an inverter from the mains directly through a power supply; it would not be a stable enough source. 3000 Watts (3 kW) on 12 Volts could draw up to 300 Amps, which you would not find a power supply capable up. Do not confuse 'power supply' with 'transformer'; transformers are AC only and do not supply DC. You are probably thinking of the kind of power supply that gets (inaccurately) referred to as a transformer.

    If your billing issue is a matter of when you draw the power (time of use billing) it is possible to shift the usage to off-peak rates in a manner such as this. It is, however, not very practical. Large, efficient inverter-charger and a battery bank to back it up would cost thousands.

    Your best expense would be a Kill-A-Watt meter for about $30. Buy it, use it, learn how much power everything you plug into the wall takes. Figure out what to switch off and what to replace. Conservation will always give you a better payback than anything else.
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  • rimzan
    rimzan Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭
    #13
    Re: Is this possible

    What would be the the things need for me to start solar power combined with the grid line or fully solar powered for an average home using around 6 cfl bulbs a refrigerator couple of fan and a semiautomatic washing machine etc..

    what is the inverter capacity,solar panel,battery, etc

    Thanks in advance
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  • Volvo Farmer
    Volvo Farmer Solar Expert Posts: 209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Is this possible

    I am also a supporter of green energy. All the green I used to have got turned into silicon wafers, glass, aluminum, copper, lead, steel, plastic and fancy electronic gizmos. Funny how little green pieces of paper can get turned into all that.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: Is this possible
    rimzan wrote: »
    What would be the the things need for me to start solar power combined with the grid line or fully solar powered for an average home using around 6 cfl bulbs a refrigerator couple of fan and a semiautomatic washing machine etc..

    what is the inverter capacity,solar panel,battery, etc

    You don't appear to have a grasp of solar energy, if you want to look into it I would call someone to assess your situation. As 'Coot suggested you could purchase a Kil-A-Watt meter and discover how much energy your appliances are using.

    In a nut shell, unless you are located in the south east United States (if your in the United States) you will not save money with solar energy.

    The easiest way to save money is to figure out where you are using energy and conserve. The biggest energy users are heating and cooling, which can be reduced by living closer to the natural temperatures and/or by adding insulation. After that would be water heaters, which often are cheaper to batch heat water when needed, adding insulation can help here too, but many newer water heaters suggest this can be dangerous. You can also reduce the storage temperatures. The other major energy user is your refrigerator, if your fridge is older than 12 years or so it might be worth considering replacing it. Just switching from a tower to a laptop computer can save 1/3rd or more energy.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • rimzan
    rimzan Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭
    #16
    Re: Is this possible

    Sorry for the confusion!! i live in tropical country in an Indian ocean island we get plenty of sun and some rain often i roughly calculated my wattage use by an online calculator and its around 5KW a day..no need of heating or cooling..
    Photowhit wrote: »
    You don't appear to have a grasp of solar energy, if you want to look into it I would call someone to assess your situation. As 'Coot suggested you could purchase a Kil-A-Watt meter and discover how much energy your appliances are using.

    In a nut shell, unless you are located in the south east United States (if your in the United States) you will not save money with solar energy.

    The easiest way to save money is to figure out where you are using energy and conserve. The biggest energy users are heating and cooling, which can be reduced by living closer to the natural temperatures and/or by adding insulation. After that would be water heaters, which often are cheaper to batch heat water when needed, adding insulation can help here too, but many newer water heaters suggest this can be dangerous. You can also reduce the storage temperatures. The other major energy user is your refrigerator, if your fridge is older than 12 years or so it might be worth considering replacing it. Just switching from a tower to a laptop computer can save 1/3rd or more energy.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Is this possible
    rimzan wrote: »
    Sorry for the confusion!! i live in tropical country in an Indian ocean island we get plenty of sun and some rain often i roughly calculated my wattage use by an online calculator and its around 5KW a day..no need of heating or cooling..

    Sorry for the late reply, I am off grid and mostly pop in and check the off grid section to see if I have an opinion or help there...

    I suspect doing a grid tied solar system will depend on your local power company, so that is where I would start your inquiry/search. They may choose not to allow grid connected systems.

    Here in the states, it is very hard to produce energy with solar as cheaply as the power company produces energy. Even Grid connected system have a hard time being cost effective (cheaper). In addition island communities often have higher expenses involved in acquiring solar panels and equipment, since panels are large and inverters heavy.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
    · Share on Twitter

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