Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
Comments
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Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
I do have a question ??. When you Equalize it's triggered from the setup menu, but you have to have Eqiz Support set to enable on the Custom Battery Menu first ?? I don't know if you have the same menu's or not.
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Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp PlusBlackcherry04 wrote: »I do have a question ??. When you Equalize it's triggered from the setup menu, but you have to have Eqiz Support set to enable on the Custom Battery Menu first ?? I don't know if you have the same menu's or not.
The menus are pretty much the same. But that is correct on the Batt Type, and the same as the XW. Set it to Custom and then enable the Equiz Support. It will also let you then choose custom settings for the rest of the options in the Charge Settings once you set Batt Type to Custom.
On that Default Batt Temp be sure to set that to the correct range too. In the summer if the batteries tend to run hotter than 77 degrees you'll probably want to set that to "Hot". What that does is temp correct some of the settings (like the Stop V trigger in the AGS Cfg Triggers menu) that don't otherwise directly use the BTS. The charging settings are all temp corrected using the BTS. But others, like for the AUX output and using Enable on Hi Batt V, are not.
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Chris -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
Thanks Chris, The old menu's on the SW were more limited. I did notice something about setting the Battery Capacity Setting and it Limiting the Charger to 80% of the ACin setting . That might be a setting that could be exploited in some way. Got me thinking anyway, some of those setting have a way of canceling each other out depending on how the code is written.
""Sets the AC1 (Grid) breaker size, based on the size of the breaker installed
on AC1. The installed breaker size must not exceed the capacity of the
upstream distribution panel. The Freedom SW limits the maximum input
current to this setting by derating its charging current to an equivalent of
80% of the AC breaker size. If the connected loads exceed the AC1
breaker setting, the AC breaker trips. The breaker may not trip if grid
support is enabled and battery voltage is above the Grid Supp Volts
setting, or if peak load shave is enabled and the load shave time window is
active.". -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp PlusBlackcherry04 wrote: »I did notice something about setting the Battery Capacity Setting and it Limiting the Charger to 80% of the ACin setting
Again, identical to the XW. It does that to allow 20% reserve/surge capacity for the generator when it's charging.
BUT - and this is what I was telling NorthGuy - I found that if you use Gen Support you can tweak that ACin setting up to what the generator will actually handle on surge and still maintain voltage/freq within spec for 2 seconds. Then you enable Gen Support and set the GenSupp Amps to the maximum continuous rating of the generator. Now the inverter will limit charging to the GenSupp Amps setting minus 1 amp and it will support the generator on an overload 2 seconds after the generator is overloaded.
It's actually a really well thought out system - light years ahead of the old SW Plus inverters.
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Chris -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
There is a ton of ACin latitude in the min/max settings that would slow down the dropout on the qualified incoming AC. I know I'll be using that with the Honda EU2000. I think you have to be careful on the loads though, as that is also bypassed.ChrisOlson wrote: »Again, identical to the XW. It does that to allow 20% reserve/surge capacity for the generator when it's charging.
BUT - and this is what I was telling NorthGuy - I found that if you use Gen Support you can tweak that ACin setting up to what the generator will actually handle on surge and still maintain voltage/freq within spec for 2 seconds. Then you enable Gen Support and set the GenSupp Amps to the maximum continuous rating of the generator. Now the inverter will limit charging to the GenSupp Amps setting minus 1 amp and it will support the generator on an overload 2 seconds after the generator is overloaded.
It's actually a really well thought out system - light years ahead of the old SW Plus inverters.
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Chris
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Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp PlusBlackcherry04 wrote: »There is a ton of ACin latitude in the min/max settings that would slow down the dropout on the qualified incoming AC. I know I'll be using that with the Honda EU2000.
Yes, again the XW is the same. But I caution using those settings because you want to protect your stuff too. The standard is 220-250 with 240 nominal (split phase power) and freq range of 58 to 62 Hz. I will not set my allowed qualified AC outside those ranges because it's too hard on stuff. If the gen can't maintain that range then it deserves to be spit off and let the more capable inverter take over to prevent damage to your stuff.
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Chris -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
Yeah, it's wishful thinking about one Honda EU 2000, I can use a pair paralleled or move to the EU3000, then have electric start and open a whole new bunch of options. When they start surging it's like the chicken or the egg, basically it's a loop that the only way to stop is to cut something.ChrisOlson wrote: »Yes, again the XW is the same. But I caution using those settings because you want to protect your stuff too. The standard is 220-250 with 240 nominal (split phase power) and freq range of 58 to 62 Hz. I will not set my allowed qualified AC outside those ranges because it's too hard on stuff. If the gen can't maintain that range then it deserves to be spit off and let the more capable inverter take over to prevent damage to your stuff.
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Chris -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
That's one of the problems with inverter generators. They don't have the surge capacity that a conventional wound field generator has. All they got behind them is a little engine driving a permanent magnet generator where three-phase AC has to be rectified to high-voltage DC and then converted back to AC on the inverter output. If they had a surge battery in them to provide the extra current needed for surge, then they'd be better. But that would make the generator too heavy to carry around.
The worst situation for your stuff is a brown-out where the single phase voltage drops below 110 and the freq drops below 58 Hz. The amps to things like AC compressors goes way up when that happens and they typically overload and cut out.
The second worst is power surges where you unload a generator and the freq goes above 62 because the throttle don't close fast enough - and the voltage goes to 'you don't even want to know'. That will saturate cores in transformers in laptop computer power bricks and even cause fireworks in some electronic things like HDTV's.
Inverters with batteries on them have tremendous capabilities to guard against these things. Inverters with engines on them don't because the power source is too variable.
With a conventional wound field generator you can get instant hundreds of amps surge by shorting the windings, only limited by how much energy is stored in the rotating assembly and how much torque rise the engine can provide when the throttle opens fully to maintain freq and voltage. Electronics are fast. But they ain't as fast as being hooked direct to the source where the power is coming from.
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Chris -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp PlusChrisOlson wrote: »That's one of the problems with inverter generators. They don't have the surge capacity that a conventional wound field generator has. All they got behind them is a little engine driving a permanent magnet generator where three-phase AC has to be rectified to high-voltage DC and then converted back to AC on the inverter output. If they had a surge battery in them to provide the extra current needed for surge, then they'd be better. But that would make the generator too heavy to carry around.
The DC generator can be coupled directly to the battery bank. The battery bank will work as your "suge battery". This way, the battery/inverter will handle all the surges and the generator will simply push a steady current into the battery. Quality of generator power, its size, motor speed, other hard-to-regulate stuff will not matter any more. That's what I would do if I were building the system now. -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
There was a new AlphaGen 36/48 on e-bay a few months ago that never had a bid @ $1,100 for 2 weeks. It was posted in here and it didn't last 15 minutes, on a Buy It Now. Snooze you lose.The DC generator can be coupled directly to the battery bank. The battery bank will work as your "suge battery". This way, the battery/inverter will handle all the surges and the generator will simply push a steady current into the battery. Quality of generator power, its size, motor speed, other hard-to-regulate stuff will not matter any more. That's what I would do if I were building the system now.
Here is a used one now. It looks old, but it probably been hauled around in a service truck, hard to tell. I bought a new Honda from a guy that hauled it around in his truck for 3 years and it had never been started, still had all the tags on it, but it looked like crap.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alphagen-DCX3000-36-48V-DC-Generator-BUY-NOW-LOCAL-P-U-NJ-/160993041605?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257beedcc5
Road trip, the guy won't ship it
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Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
Yep, a DC generator is definitely a useful asset to an off-grid power system. I started building one that I'm going to run high voltage DC from it thru a Classic 150. But I don't have it done yet.
But I wouldn't use just a DC genset. The AC genset has it's place because it's more efficient when you can use a small one for Load Starts and power the loads direct from the gen - which in turns takes the load off the batteries so the RE can can charge them. The AC genset can also assist the inverter with overloads where the DC genset can't.
I figured the DC genset would be useful in the winter when the solar panels don't work. Gas powered solar panels.
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Chris -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
If you are already looking at an eu3000i because of electric/possible autostart--You might want to just bite the bullet and look at the Honda EM4000SX that Chris Olson is using. It sounds like a very capable and reliable unit with true computer control of the fuel (i.e., choke/fuel mixture) so you can set it up with an appropriate controller pretty nicely.
You could probably still justify the eu2000i for backup/direct AC charging of the battery bank in poor weather too (backup power + spare genset + something for power if you have an inverter/battery bank failure).
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
Chris, as I read the Manual for the SW3024 I see Xantrex has some little tricks hidden in there to manipulate the settings..
NOTE:
When the charge cycle is interrupted, the charger will restart charging at
the beginning of the multi-stage algorithm.
Exit Current Threshold can be effectively disabled by programming the
amp-hour capacity to the minimum. In this case, absorption will only exit
once the Max Absorption timer expires.
Charge current during equalize state (optional state not shown here) is
normally limited to 10% of the programmed amp-hour capacity setting. If
this setting is programmed to the maximum, the charge current during
equalize is instead limited to whatever is programmed for the max current
limit of the unit. -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
Good Point Bill, probably better surge capacity and eliminate a problem.If you are already looking at an eu3000i because of electric/possible autostart--You might want to just bite the bullet and look at the Honda EM4000SX that Chris Olson is using. It sounds like a very capable and reliable unit with true computer control of the fuel (i.e., choke/fuel mixture) so you can set it up with an appropriate controller pretty nicely.
You could probably still justify the eu2000i for backup/direct AC charging of the battery bank in poor weather too (backup power + spare genset + something for power if you have an inverter/battery bank failure).
-Bill -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp PlusIf you are already looking at an eu3000i because of electric/possible autostart--You might want to just bite the bullet and look at the Honda EM4000SX that Chris Olson is using. It sounds like a very capable and reliable unit with true computer control of the fuel (i.e., choke/fuel mixture)
And the biggie for frequency control - the throttle. The ECU is directly above carb on it and it controls the throttle and choke directly. There is no governor or throttle linkage on it like a GX has. The frequency control on the EM-SX series generators is the best I have ever seen, even compared to megawatt class generators, which will vary by 1 Hz either way. You can get the freq to drop to 56 under severe surge overload (about 7 kVA), but by that time a comparable inverter unit is already shut itself down or tripped its breaker to protect itself. The EM4000SX's output breaker will hold 7 kVA for 3-5 seconds before it trips.
I think the EM4000SX is about the same price as the EU3000, and it's a much more capable generator. And the EM4000SX also has Auto Throttle on it so it will idle down under no load if you want it to. The Auto Throttle "cheats" under light loads below 50% by throttling the engine back, dropping the freq to 58 and the iAVR bumps the voltage to 123/246 to save on fuel a little bit when it's under about 2 kVA load
For whatever reason possessed Honda to do it, the EM-SX series is what I would consider to be an extreme in technology for a portable generator. It has no exciter winding in it, and no AVR. It has a computer that controls the field based on output of the main windings. And it has a CT (Current Transformer) sensor that detects the smallest change in load, sends the information to the computer and the engine's ECU adjusts the throttle setting simultaneous with the load hitting the main windings.
I took the whole frickin' thing apart one day just to see how it all works. And all I could do when I seen what they did is shake my head and go "leave it to Honda to come up with something like this".
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Chris -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
Our XW system did something it has never done before - started the generator this morning for battery charging. Just several poor days in a row for RE power. It was running when we got up - I noticed our Midnite Battery Capacity Meter was on "Green 100" and I go, "what?" I went and looked at the SCP and there was 3700 watts incoming power on AC2!
It was charging batteries at ~67 amps.
So I watched it closely over the next hour while my wife cooked breakfast. Induction range top, microwave, water heater kicked in for awhile running some hot water, toaster, coffee maker. I was wanting to see if it dropped the charger, dropped the generator, or did something bad. It didn't. If it could work any more flawless I don't know how that would be possible.
I watched it dial the charger up and down, depending on load. I watched it go from charging into gen support, then back to charging, twice when the load exceeded the generator capacity. Not a single bump in it.
I've only been able to test this before when I deliberately made the generator charge batteries, even though they didn't need it. This is the first time I've been able to test it when the charger wanted everything the generator could put out.
The generator started at 7:00 AM. It's still running and only got the bank up to 56.0. It'll probably run 10 hours today to get the bank to 58.0 where the Stop V trigger will finally stop it. That's one of the downsides of having a small generator with a big battery bank and no incoming RE power
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Chris -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
Chris,
It is nice when a plan comes together!
Are you thinking yet about a GeoSpring heatpump water heater or similar yet?
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
Bill, I have not seen those before. But it looks really nice!
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Chris -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
They do look nice--But from what I have read, they will not work well (in heat pump mode) in your ice box conditions--Typically need around 55F minimum or they simply turn on their resistive heaters.
If you can run it in the home with alternative heating source (or a "warm basement")--The cooling effect of the heat pump may not be a huge issue.
For warmer climates, one of the old posters here (Solar Guppy) thought they were better (less maintenance issues) than solar hot water.
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
How much power does the heat pump use? Is it over 2,000 watts?
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Chris -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
If I remember from one of the other posters here, if you disable the resistive heating, it runs around 500 (or 600?) watts for the heat pump.It is exactly one year since I installed my General Electric Geospring waterheater. Always run it in ecomode @ temperature 125 f except a month in hot weather @ 140F. I installed a utility power meter so I could monitor the power usage. Wished I would have had more history on the previous electric 40 gal waterheater I had. I did have the old water heater on the utility meter for 2 days before I installed the new Geospring. and old one used 22 KWh. At that rate of 11kwh per day I should have used 4015 kwh for a years waterheating. With the new Geospring waterheater I used 497 kwh for the year and had hotter water for month. Don,t know for sure about acuracy of what the old waterheater would use as I only had 2 days usage on the meter. I live in a doublewide manufactured home and have the waterheater installed in the utility room just off the kitchen. I also put a gas space heater in that room which probably helped the eficiency some. When the waterheater runs it will output some cold air. Nice in the summer but not winter. When humidity is high I would get a gallon of water about every 2 days. I use a 1 gallon milk jug to catch the water. Fueling the space heater for me was no cost as I have free gas from my gaswell. That had another benifit as it can heat my whole house without needing to run my gas furnace that uses about 700 watts when it is running. Furnace has a globar and the best estimate is the globar uses about 400 watts. The noise don,t bother me as I usually have the tv on or a radio and after working in a foundrt most of my life my hearing isn,t 100%. The fans seem to have 2 speeds. If the room gets cold enough the fans ramp up thier speed. I am gridtied to the maximum that I can supply to powergrid so am installing an offgrid system because I have lots of power outages. Going to put inverter and charge controler in utility room. Figured the heat from the offgrid system can go to the waterheater. I got the GEospring because its energy rating was higher than the rudd and rudds brother. Only complaint is it was made in China. Quality seems good and has 1o year warranty. I would recomend this waterheater and would buy another if it last at least 10 years. :DsolarvicMy previous 40 gal electric waterheater used about 6 kwh per day. My new ge geo spring uses averaged 1.34 kwh per day for 1st year for 1 person. Good long shower everyday with runnibg dishwasher 3 times week and cloths washer 3 times week. I am very satisfied with my geo spring. 490 kwh for whole year with utility meter dedicated to the waterheater usage. :DsolarvicBill, Why I think the price is lowered so much is they are selling out the Chinese made geospring waterheaters. They started to build them in the usa in Kentucky on February 20 and will be lots cheaper than the China made ones. They have red tops on them instead of blue and looks like they took the plastic cover off where the regular heating elements are. I have one of the china made ones and am wondering if the american made ones are just as good. :Dsolarvic Oil pan. The geospring has regular heating elements in it same as a regular waterheater. It has different settings. You can set it to run heatpump mode only and it is the most efficient mode. and recovers 9 GPM. For someone that uses more water there is a fast recovery mode that heats water with the heating elements part way and then goes to heatpump mode. There is a heating element only mode in case your heatpump breaks down you can still have hot water till you get heatpump repaired. I always had mine set on heatpump mode only and have never run out of hot water.
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
Update on this deal - since I put our little backup generator on the XW's AC1 input I've found GenSupp Plus does not work on AC1. Our little Champion is woefully weak for what the XW wants and we have to really baby the loads if I got it running. I've set the AC1 limits to 52 Hz low, 65 Hz high, and allowed voltage to 78 low and 135 high so it won't spit the little generator off if even something simple like the 'fridge kicks in.
The XW's sampling of the AC inputs, and its reaction if it doesn't like it, is VERY fast. Even if the freq or voltage sags for a few milliseconds below what you have the allowable set at, it will drop the generator like a hot potato. This is actually good because it protects your loads. But it can make life interesting with a generator that doesn't have stable or clean output.
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Chris -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp PlusChrisOlson wrote: »The XW's sampling of the AC inputs, and its reaction if it doesn't like it, is VERY fast. Even if the freq or voltage sags for a few milliseconds below what you have the allowable set at, it will drop the generator like a hot potato. This is actually good because it protects your loads. But it can make life interesting with a generator that doesn't have stable or clean output.
You need an exceptionally good generator to cope with XW. I had to dial down the GenSupport level to 30A, which with a small imbalance beetween legs, keeps the generator loaded at 6kW. But if I move GenSupport higher, when the water pump starts and there's a surge on both legs, it spits out the generator. So, now I have only 6kW generator. With 64V required by batteries, it feels more like 5kW
I didn't try to lower voltage limit too much though. It's at 106V now. -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp PlusSo, now I have only 6kW generator. With 64V required by batteries, it feels more like 5kW
I can tell you without a doubt that the PSX-240 would help with that. But in reality you're right in the ballpark for the 10 kW Guardian's continuous output. Many people buy these generators and if it says 10 kW on it they think that means 10 kW all the time. But that's not how it works. The Guardian is not a prime power unit - it's a standby. And Generac does not even provide a certified prime power rating for it. They just recommend to size the generator twice as big as the normal loads. So if you can run it at 6 kW continuous and maintain a fairly tight tolerance on freq and voltage, that's pretty good for a 10 kW generator. I know that's not what you wanted when you bought it. But it's what you get in real life by the time you de-rate for altitude, winding heat, governor reaction time, and so on.
Also keep in mind that when you adjust the Gen Support amps that it limits the charger to a couple amps below that setting and your AC2 Breaker Size and Charger Percentage setting no longer apply for the charger. They don't make that clear in the manual, but that's the way it works.
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Chris -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp PlusChrisOlson wrote: »I can tell you without a doubt that the PSX-240 would help with that. But in reality you're right in the ballpark for the 10 kW Guardian's continuous output. Many people buy these generators and if it says 10 kW on it they think that means 10 kW all the time. But that's not how it works. The Guardian is not a prime power unit - it's a standby. And Generac does not even provide a certified prime power rating for it. They just recommend to size the generator twice as big as the normal loads. So if you can run it at 6 kW continuous and maintain a fairly tight tolerance on freq and voltage, that's pretty good for a 10 kW generator. I know that's not what you wanted when you bought it. But it's what you get in real life by the time you de-rate for altitude, winding heat, governor reaction time, and so on.
I could keep it on at 7.5-7.7kW, but then there's a problem with the pump. When it starts, XW drops the generator, starts the pump, then it takes 10-15 seconds to qualify and load the generator back. I though that this might be not good for the generator as well as for the pump. So, I decided to keep it at around 6kW. This slows down the charging, but hopefully prolongs the life of the generator and the pump.ChrisOlson wrote: »Also keep in mind that when you adjust the Gen Support amps that it limits the charger to a couple amps below that setting and your AC2 Breaker Size and Charger Percentage setting no longer apply for the charger. They don't make that clear in the manual, but that's the way it works.
The Charger Percentage still works. I have it set to 80% (80A). When loads are small it sits right at 80A very steady. With bigger loads, Gen Support Amps kick in and charging goes below that.
When it is limited by Charger Percentage, it keeps the charging current very steady - varies at most 1A, even less than that.
When it is limied by Gen Support Amps (or by AC2 Breaker if I disable Gen Support), it oscillates up and down with 10, smetimes even 15A amplitude. This causes the generator to oscillate between 59 and 61 Hz. I fugured this is not very good for generator neither. Therefore, I programmed Charger Percentage to 80A. At least when loads are small, it runs steady. -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp PlusThe Charger Percentage still works. I have it set to 80% (80A)
Yeah, I guess I didn't word that right. At 30 amps for Gen Support the XW will start supporting the gen at around 7.2 kVA (assuming balanced legs). At 80 amps on the charger you're only at 5.1 kVA plus losses in the charger. If you would drop your Gen Support amps below (theoretical) 5.1 kVA you would see the Gen Support amps setting start to override the charger percentage setting.
The reason for this is that the XW sees that it has to start supporting the gen at "x" amps so if tries to use more than that to operate the charger it runs into a conundrum where that is not allowed. Because it can't support the gen and charge at the same time.
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Chris -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp PlusChrisOlson wrote: »Yeah - load the inverter to 6-7 kW and then it sounds like a 125 kVA 480/277 utility transformer, even with the auto transformer. But the higher the loads go on it, the more chance you have of a leg imbalance causing an issue. If you're pushing it to 5.5 kW load, as an example, and then your wife throws something in the microwave and turns that on, adding the additional 12 amps load on one leg causes it to get REALLY loud. But with the transformer on it it handles the overload with ease and runs quieter.
After experimenting with it, and trying to overload the inverter just to see how much it will take (without successfully getting it to shut down from overload) I firmly believe that using the auto transformer is a win-win.
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Chris
Would it improve if you had 2 in parallel? from inverter to power panel 240 volt. as they are rated for 6KW watts Max not the 12KW your XW6048 will produce.
Any idea the wire size of the auto transformer?
I got same load balance problem with the microwave, and other 120 volt pumps etc.
Some other thoughts, will increase from 10 watts to how much under full 6000 watts? Would two inverters be better? -
Re: Schneider Conext XW and GenSupp Plus
Our PSX-240 transformer will handle a 6 kVA imbalance between L1 and L2. I think the transformer is wound with 12 AWG wire in it.
While two inverters might work for some people, I think something like that is more grid-tie stuff than being practical for off-grid. We don't have enough battery capacity to run two inverters. If we need more capacity than what one inverter can supply using generator support is more economical for us than buying another inverter and the batteries to power it.
Using the autotransformer with it enhances the performance of both the inverter and the generator.
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Chris
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