Price per watt calculation...

Hairfarm · March 2013

Greetings,

I have figured the cost for my 810 watt, 12 volt, 675ah system has cost me roughly $6,600 including installation. What is the formula for calculating price per watt? Or is that formula only used for pricing / comparing solar panels?

thanks!

Cariboocoot · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

It's called "amortization": spreading the capital investment cost over the expected lifespan of the equipment (including inevitable battery replacement) divided by the kW hours produced over the same time span.

Just as an example:
if your $6,600 initial cost will buy equipment capable of 20 years that's $220 per year or $0.60 per day. If it produces 2 kW hours per day average, that's $0.30 per kW hour.

Basically.

Hairfarm · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

Obviously you've considered this before. Interesting. My SCE Tier 3 price per kW hour is $0.29, almost the same as my new system according to your calculation. Not that we hardly ever venture into Tier 3, of course...

Photowhit · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

He may have worked with you before, but I thing he was just giving you an example, I project total casts, so you need to ad replacing the batteries (3-5years for golf cart, 5-8 years for L-16, ...) and replacing electronics every 10-12 years...

An 820 watt array should produce relably about 1.6 Kwh's in most areas of the US more in the southeast, less in others...

Installed propery, you can take a 30% tax credit, if your in the U.S., that will help you reduce your costs, this is a credit off your tax liability!

solar_dave · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

Consider grid tie, way more bang for the buck. You don't need batteries for a grid tie. $6000 should get you a 2.5 Kw system installed.

NorthGuy · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

solar_dave wrote: »

Consider grid tie, way more bang for the buck. You don't need batteries for a grid tie. $6000 should get you a 2.5 Kw system installed.

You cannot compare. They serve totally different purposes.

Hairfarm · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

solar_dave wrote: »

Consider grid tie, way more bang for the buck. You don't need batteries for a grid tie. $6000 should get you a 2.5 Kw system installed.

Unfortunately there's no grid to "tie" to. I'm in the middle of the desert. The closest utility pole is three miles away.

After lots of research, it seems to me that $6600 is in the ball park regarding price for a total install with quality components, and well under a "kit" price. Many of the solar off-grid "kits" I've seen are the same price as my set-up is. Accept that those kits don't include wiring, panel roof racks, batteries, or any of the other extraneous items like conduit, ground rods, breaker boxes etc. The lowest priced "kit" I've seen advertised is about the the same price as my set up is, but once you add all of the extra's not included in the kit, the total price comes out to be roughly $2500 to 3k more. And that price doesn't even include paying some one to install it for you.

I'm doing my own install and saving that cost as well. And it only took me a full year and a half (a slow learner) to figure everything out and amass all of the components I needed.

Installed propery, you can take a 30% tax credit, if your in the U.S., that will help you reduce your costs, this is a credit off your tax liability!

I can't seem to find any evidence of a tax credit for off-grid systems in California. From my understanding tax credits are only for grid-tie systems. Can you please provide a link?

thanks!

Photowhit · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

Hairfarm wrote: »

I can't seem to find any evidence of a tax credit for off-grid systems in California. From my understanding tax credits are only for grid-tie systems. Can you please provide a link.

Federal Tax Credit, 30% of money invested (nothing for your time) as a credit, so off of any tax liability, in the year it's put in operation, it usually can roll over into the next year, not sure after 2016...

Link

BB. · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

Remember too that you, usually, cannot use 100% of your power every day... On average, perhaps, you can use 60-75% on a day to day basis... And if the home/cabin is only occupied part of the year, the rest of the year the panels are not generating any "useful" power.

Not saying that off grid is not worth it--Just that conservation is very important to reducing overall costs of off grid solar power.

-Bill

icarus · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

Assuming you are actually asking what the WH price of y our off grid power is... The answer is, expensive!

Tony

Photowhit · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

Hairfarm wrote: »

From my understanding tax credits are only for grid-tie systems. Can you please provide a link?

Sorry, I missed the Grid tie part of this, the Federal gov does not make any distinction between on and off grid systems, not state credits are done through utility incentives (I think) and are generally limited to grid tied systems. My earlier post has a link, If they didn't allow off grid system crdits I have at least 4 years of tax returns to redo!

I don't want to mine your system information, $6000 sounds a bit expensive for a 820 watt off grid system, worried you might have some miss matched system like 820watt array is pretty minimal for a 675Amp battery bank (assuming 12 volt?) Might be worth running the system by the forum members, though perhaps you have...

Also if you have aquired the pieces, note that batteries like to be used and maintained...

Hairfarm · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

Photowhit wrote: »

Federal Tax Credit, 30% of money invested (nothing for your time) as a credit, so off of any tax liability, in the year it's put in operation, it usually can roll over into the next year, not sure after 2016...

Link

From the link:
"Details: Existing homes & new construction qualify. Must be your principal residence. Rentals and second homes do not qualify."

It's not my primary residence...yet. So according to the info above I can't claim the credit until I/We move into it full time.

Thanks for the info

Photowhit · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

I can't believe how much hand holding I have to do here,

Go to the the three catagories that include solar energy;

READ;

The following applies to the 3 product categories below:
Tax Credit: 30% of cost with no upper limit Expires: December 31, 2016 Details: Existing homes & new construction qualify. Both principal residences and second homes qualify. Rentals do not qualify.

It won't be in bold or red, but I think you should be able to find it if you read that far.

Cariboocoot · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

Calm down.

One fellow reads "second homes do not qualify" another reads "second homes qualify". Clear as mud.

However since it says "new construction" does qualify I think hairfarm should be all right since he is building this new with the intent of it being his principal residence, not an income property. Right?

On the other hand the primary criterion for being a bureaucrat is to be thick as two short planks, so you just never know what will happen regardless of what the rules say.

This is probably why Canada offers no such incentives; it's too confusing.
That and the fact our gov't is addicted to taxation. :roll:

Photowhit · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

He's just reading the wrong section, it does indeed say what he read, but in a section about other topics.

Biomass StovesHeating
Ventilating, Air Conditioning (HVAC)
Insulation
Roofs (Metal & Asphalt)
Water Heaters (non-solar)
Windows & Doors

The section that includes solar has the included wording I posted previously, your post confuses things, solar credit is for first and secondary homes, so long as they aren't rental property. It is very clear.

Hairfarm · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

He's just reading the wrong section, it does indeed say what he read, but in a section about other topics.

Looks like I was reading the wrong part of the page. My bad.

But once I click on the "Solar Energy Systems" link, then click on the "How to apply" it takes me to page to DL a tax form and tells me to save my receipts and " Manufacturer's Certification Statement". Then when I click on " Manufacturer's Certification Statement" and scroll down to Solar Panels there is no more information. So, what is a Manufacturer's Certification Statement?

And yes, we plan to make it a primary residence. As of now it's a secondary residence. And, although I can't seem to find any specific info (http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_index) regarding "off-grid" eligibility, I assume it's eligible too unless specifically stated that it isn't. (?)

Photowit, do I have to have my system inspected to prove that this installation is valid? It seems so.

Has anyone else on this forum (in the U.S.) taken advantage of this credit. If so, what hoop/s did you have to jump through?

thanks,

Blackcherry04 · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

If your talking about the 30 % federal Tax Credit, yes use line one, there no receipts or certifications on Solar Electric Property. remember those are " NET " costs minus and state or Utility rebates. You need to keep the receipts to use if your audited to prove your costs.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f5695.pdf

Qualified solar electric property costs. Qualified solar electric property costs are costs for property that uses solar energy to generate electricity for use in your home located in the United States. No costs relating to a solar panel or other property installed as a roof (or portion thereof) will fail to qualify solely because the property constitutes a structural component of the structure on which it is installed. The home does not have to be your main home.

Photowhit · March 2013

Re: Price per watt calculation...

Hairfarm wrote: »

" Manufacturer's Certification Statement". Then when I click on " Manufacturer's Certification Statement" and scroll down to Solar Panels there is no more information. So, what is a Manufacturer's Certification Statement?

I think the certification has to do with doors and windows insulating values, non solar water heaters ratings and the like,

Hairfarm wrote: »

"off-grid" eligibility, I assume it's eligible too unless specifically stated that it isn't. (?)

Photowit, do I have to have my system inspected to prove that this installation is valid? It seems so.

You may have local codes that require inspection, but inspection for the IRS is not, I don't even have an inspector to go to and had an electrician look over my system. There use to be a statement 'installed to code' or something to that effect, I think there was something about new materials. Generally you would want panels that have UL rating and follow code. Some states are current and some lag behind on NEC code revisions. Current NEC code versions by State.

I don't know of anyone who has ever been checked on code compliance by IRS and indeed have heard of electric companies not looking past the inverter for UL liisting of panels.

Price per watt calculation...

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