230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

What might one expect from this idea being implemented.

Comments

  • BB.BB. admin Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,634 admin
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    Hard to say... Compressor running at wrong speed (motor runs fast, cooling capacity goes up, if capillary tube system cause differential pressure issues, etc.), defrost timers running 20% too fast.

    It is possible that some of the newer/high efficiency refrigerators may use a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) which could make the compressor frequency independent--Then you need to look at the specification to ensure that it will work at the ~220 to 264 VAC it may see in the US.

    We have some appliance folks here that know much more than I, perhaps they can help.

    Is there as specific brand/model/reason you are doing this?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • john pjohn p ✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    For what its worth ,I use all 240v 50hz tools and appliances on 230v ???well somewhere between 190 and 235.and 60hz . Never had a problem somthings have been in use abouit 10 yrs so if they now fail what to blame??
  • Trickle ChargeTrickle Charge Solar Expert Posts: 28
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    I know it's an imported Bosch fridge from Germany but I'll try to find out what model he's got running on an Magnum 4024 inverter. It's been working fine for a couple of years now.

    I'm trying to reduce my kWh consumption and the fridge is rated at 475/year whereas the german Bosch is 130. Is there something I between the outlet and the fridge to step the Hz down?
  • mike95490mike95490 ✭✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 8,416 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system
    I know it's an imported Bosch fridge from Germany but I'll try to find out what model he's got running on an Magnum 4024 inverter. It's been working fine for a couple of years now.

    I'm trying to reduce my kWh consumption and the fridge is rated at 475/year whereas the german Bosch is 130. Is there something I between the outlet and the fridge to step the Hz down?

    Nope, it's not easy to change the Hz unless you go AC - DC - AC, or use a motor-generator convertor. Both have about 20% or so in losses. Best to try it, and see if it works, and for how long. Gut feeling says it will likely be OK, but your mileage will vary.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
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  • BB.BB. admin Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,634 admin
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    You could probably find the European version of an inverter and get 230 VAC 60 Hz direct. Probably not the cheapest solution and if you have no other 50 Hz needs, would not be worth the extra inverter tare/standby losses.

    If your friend is using his refrigerator for a couple of years on 60 Hz without problems--Then it sounds promising (as well as the very low energy usage).

    Without knowing details about the fridge, I would be hesitant to offer any other options (such as installing your own VFD -- variable frequency drive -- to convert to 50 Hz.

    The only other option is a chest freezer conversion (down towards 0.25 kWH per day has been reported)--And I wonder if anyone here has tried a vertical freezer conversion (better access to food with traditional refrigerator shelves).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • john pjohn p ✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    I have a converted vertical 5 shelf freezer it works well as a fridge. To do the conversion to fridge I simply got a fridge thermostat and the sensing tube and mounted it in a small plastic box .Mounted a power outlet on the box and a power cable into the box. I mounted the box on top of the freezer and simply ran the tube from outside between the freezer case and the door seal and put a bit of silicone on the tube to hold it into place. you then really have not modified the freezer as it just plugs into the box and then to your wall outlet.use a suitable relay across the thermostat to switch the fridge/freezer on/off.
  • BB.BB. admin Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,634 admin
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    John,

    Any measurements on how much power it is using? Any issues with warm/cold spots?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • techntrektechntrek ✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system
    mike95490 wrote: »
    Nope, it's not easy to change the Hz unless you go AC - DC - AC, or use a motor-generator convertor. Both have about 20% or so in losses. ...

    8% loss on the AC-DC-AC option.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • Trickle ChargeTrickle Charge Solar Expert Posts: 28
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    It's a Bosch KDE29AL40 but I can't find any specs just yet that aren't in german. lol But that's the model they have.

    I would imagine that running it at 60 Hz would make things get cold rather quickly.
  • john pjohn p ✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    BB it is a 5 shelf freezer each shelf is and active freezing plate. Usually the top shelf as a std freezer gets the coldest first then eventually the bottom one. as a fridge it tends to stay about the same on each shelf as ive set it to about 3degC.. But I have noticed and its a bit anoying because of long times between cycling on ,water tends to be on the top 2 shelves. It appears to cycle on for about 5 minutes every 35mins. But to be honest have not done any proper measurements.Never did any either before exxcept think it used about 1.2kwh per 24hrs.Rated dconsumption is 180w. So going by that its now using a bit less than2/3 of the power.

    But it sure is far far more user friendly than converted chest freezer. Total pain from day one, You just cant use the available space easily.
  • BB.BB. admin Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,634 admin
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    John,

    That sounds like around 0.62 kWH per day or 225 kWH per year.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • john pjohn p ✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    I would guess thats about correct. We use it as a drink bottles "fridge" it pulls down bottle temp far faster than a regular fridge.
  • Trickle ChargeTrickle Charge Solar Expert Posts: 28
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    Is there a whiz-bang gizmo that plugs into a 240V for a stove that converts it to the euro V/Hz?
  • BB.BB. admin Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,634 admin
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    Voltage is not the problem. It is Frequency. In the old days, it was a motor-generator that did the frequency conversion.

    Today, I would research VFD's (Variable Frequency Drives). I don't know enough about them and what is available today--But if you can find a good distributor, they may be able to get you something that works pretty well without too much added expense. Would need to research closely--I believe many of the VFD's have MSW (modified square wave) output--And that is not always the best to feed your AC loads. You could add more problems to diagnose.

    However--Before I go down that road, I would would like to understand more why you are doing this. Yes, a lot of European appliances have better efficiency, but, many times, they also do this with smaller appliances (such as refrigerators).

    If you are on the left coast of Canada, would not Euro appliances be scary expensive?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • CariboocootCariboocoot ✭✭ Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system
    Is there a whiz-bang gizmo that plugs into a 240V for a stove that converts it to the euro V/Hz?

    If it has electronic controls it probably will not work. If it is an old "all manual" control stove it will not care if it gets 230 instead of 240.

    Check the exact specs on the stove. Call the maker if necessary. There is a slim chance it can operate on either 50 or 60 Hz. Or they may have a "European conversion" for it.
  • BB.BB. admin Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,634 admin
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    I guess I should ask if this is an "electric stove" (lots of power draw), or just a standard natural gas/propane stove with 240 VAC 50 Hz controls.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • CariboocootCariboocoot ✭✭ Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system
    BB. wrote: »
    I guess I should ask if this is an "electric stove" (lots of power draw), or just a standard natural gas/propane stove with 240 VAC 50 Hz controls.

    -Bill

    :confused: You mean 230 VAC 50 Hz. And if it needs 240 VAC 60 Hz it would be an electric stove. The gas ones just use 120 VAC 60 Hz for their control circuits.

    Aside: they make plug adapters for 240 VAC stove outlets to give 120 VAC so you can plug the gas stove in the same place when you switch it out.
  • inetdoginetdog ✭✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system
    If it has electronic controls it probably will not work. If it is an old "all manual" control stove it will not care if it gets 230 instead of 240.

    Check the exact specs on the stove. Call the maker if necessary. There is a slim chance it can operate on either 50 or 60 Hz. Or they may have a "European conversion" for it.

    For electronic controls, feeding a power supply with 60 Hz instead of 50 Hz should make its job easier. Clock/timer functions, on the other hand, may be a problem. Some adjustment required to defrost times, ice maker cycle, etc. on a fridge although probably not significant.
    For a stove, you may have to adjust the cooking times that you set. :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • Trickle ChargeTrickle Charge Solar Expert Posts: 28
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    Did I say stove? Darn I meant fridge.

    Anyway, I think it would be interesting to try a Magnum MM-E inverter to the fridge. Pull off of the 24VDC bus and run a dedicated line from the 50 Hz inverter to a 230VAC euro plug for the fridge.
  • BB.BB. admin Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,634 admin
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system
    Anyway, I think it would be interesting to try a Magnum MM-E inverter to the fridge. Pull off of the 24VDC bus and run a dedicated line from the 50 Hz inverter to a 230VAC euro plug for the fridge.

    You are talking about a 24 volt battery bank here, and NOT taking 24 volts off a 48 volt battery bank--Correct? (there are ways of doing this with DC to DC converters/battery chargers, but not splitting power output from a straight battery bank).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Trickle ChargeTrickle Charge Solar Expert Posts: 28
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system
    BB. wrote: »
    You are talking about a 24 volt battery bank here, and NOT taking 24 volts off a 48 volt battery bank--Correct? (there are ways of doing this with DC to DC converters/battery chargers, but not splitting power output from a straight battery bank).

    -Bill

    Hi Bill,

    What I have is a 24VDC bank that goes to a ME-4024PAE inverter that hangs off of a MMP enclosure with AC and DC buses. There are two Midnite charge controllers going into it from the PV arrays. I should think that I could power the 50 Hz inverter from the DC bus and not directly from the battery bank, from the load side. The inverter would never have anything connected to it to charge the bank but would only supply power to the fridge, with dedicated wire run, 230V plug, and breaker, which would replace the the 400 kWh one that is currently connected via the main breaker panel.

    Here's info on the MM-E 50Hz inverter:
    http://www.magnumenergy.com/Products/MM-Eseries.htm

    Is there a flaw in that?
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 ✭✭✭ Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system
    Hi Bill,

    What I have is a 24VDC bank that goes to a ME-4024PAE inverter that hangs off of a MMP enclosure with AC and DC buses. There are two Midnite charge controllers going into it from the PV arrays. I should think that I could power the 50 Hz inverter from the DC bus and not directly from the battery bank, from the load side. The inverter would never have anything connected to it to charge the bank but would only supply power to the fridge, with dedicated wire run, 230V plug, and breaker, which would replace the the 400 kWh one that is currently connected via the main breaker panel.

    Here's info on the MM-E 50Hz inverter:
    http://www.magnumenergy.com/Products/MM-Eseries.htm

    Is there a flaw in that?
    That inverter is MSW and may not run the refrigerator depending on the controls. Here a TSW that will, $550-$600. It's available in 230v @50hz , 12V, 24V & 48 V.

    http://www.meanwell.com/search/tn-1500/TN-1500-spec.pdf

    It's full featured, the charger isn't much, but has a 30 amp solar controller built in. This is my second year, no issues. They have a remote for $29. The quality is impressive. I got a " G " model with GFI plug in's, they have a hard wire, " F " model.
  • Trickle ChargeTrickle Charge Solar Expert Posts: 28
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system
    That inverter is MSW and may not run the refrigerator depending on the controls. Here a TSW that will, $550-$600. It's available in 230v @50hz , 12V, 24V & 48 V.

    http://www.meanwell.com/search/tn-1500/TN-1500-spec.pdf

    It's full featured, the charger isn't much, but has a 30 amp solar controller built in. This is my second year, no issues. They have a remote for $29. The quality is impressive. I got a " G " model with GFI plug in's, they have a hard wire, " F " model.

    Even better thanks. And Magnum has a TSW 230V/50Hz unit as well.

    So is this a fairly uncommon thing to do? It'll cost extra but the kWh is decided better which would translate into less generator runtime, which is what I'm going for.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot ✭✭ Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system
    Even better thanks. And Magnum has a TSW 230V/50Hz unit as well.

    So is this a fairly uncommon thing to do? It'll cost extra but the kWh is decided better which would translate into less generator runtime, which is what I'm going for.

    Is it going to save you more than the consumption of the second inverter?
    That is the question, with or without a standby mode.
  • Trickle ChargeTrickle Charge Solar Expert Posts: 28
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system
    Is it going to save you more than the consumption of the second inverter?
    That is the question, with or without a standby mode.

    Would that be the "No Load" rating? Seems to be from 19W to 23W depending on which inverter. So 19-23 watts max burning away all day besides the fridge itself?
  • CariboocootCariboocoot ✭✭ Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system
    Would that be the "No Load" rating? Seems to be from 19W to 23W depending on which inverter. So 19-23 watts max burning away all day besides the fridge itself?

    That's the thing. Inverter use power for themselves, and it can add up to a lot. Some are as high as 30 Watts, and that's a nasty 720 Watt hours per day. What does the 'frige use? Probably less than 2X that amount. So the savings is ???
  • Trickle ChargeTrickle Charge Solar Expert Posts: 28
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system
    That's the thing. Inverter use power for themselves, and it can add up to a lot. Some are as high as 30 Watts, and that's a nasty 720 Watt hours per day. What does the 'frige use? Probably less than 2X that amount. So the savings is ???

    Right. If it sounds too good... Let's see:

    If the euro fridge is rated at 150 kWh/year that's 411 Watt hours per day.
    The TN-1500 says <18W no load @ battery save mode which would be 432 Watt hours.
    Total of 843 Watt hours per day.

    The NA fridge I was considering uses 425 kWh/year = 1164 Watt hours/day.

    1164-843 = 321 Watt hours/day.

    And that's probably a maybe but a ball park figure.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot ✭✭ Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: 230V 50 Hz European Fridge into a 240V 60 Hz system

    Yup; that's the way you have to check it.
    As I said, inverters can use up to 30 Watts themselves which would make the numbers worse.
    If the Euro-frige is that low and the Ameri-frige that high that the difference between them can absorb the inverter's consumption you're good. :D
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