new instalation

System · July 2008

;)After reading many posts on this forum & endless hours of research I just placed my order of my new solar system it is as follows

-Outback MX 60 charge controller
-Outback VFX 3524 inverter/charger
-6- 80 watt solar modules with roof mounting
-8 - Sunsaver SS-6V305 6 Volt Batteries
-batteries are stored outside in an insulated oversized deck box lined with styrofom
-Outback Mate B

The location is in Ontario Lake of the Woods Dufrane island we have propane fridge stove hotwater tank , the water is 1/2 hp jet pump
the total daily usage is 950 w/hours based on a 2-3 day weekend use

-the concirns I have are would a low energy fridge be possible with this system?

-as for the battris what sould I wach for And is there any settings I should change on my MX60 or my invertewr?
-I have 2 Generaters 1-6800 Yamaha remote start and a Honda EU2000I wich one should I use for charging?

thanks Craig

BB. · July 2008

Re: new instalation

A little help please...

What is a "Sunsaver SS-6V305 6 Volt Battery"?... Link to specs or something?

Also, could you take a look at this link and tell us which location is closest to your place? Use the part on the right "Regions outside the US" and use the Canadian pull-down and pick the place nearest to you (and similar in weather).

Regarding the generator--use the one that gets nearest to being 50% (or greater) load... Many generators use almost the same fuel flow at 50% load as they do at 0% load. The Honda eu2000i is pretty nice when using "ECO Throttle"--it scales down to 25% fuel flow pretty efficiently.

From Honda's specifications

1,600 watts * 4 hours / 1.1 gallons = 5,818 Watt*hours/gal = 5.8 kWhrs/gal
400 watts (1/4 load) * 15 hours / 1.1 gallons = 5,454 WH/gal = 5.45 kWh/gal

Random website on the Yamaha:

Generator features an 8-gallon gas tank that has 12 hours of run time at 50 load

Operates at 6800 watts with a max of 8500 watts

8-gallon gas tank provides up to 12 hours of run time -- reduces the need for frequent tank refills

6,800 W * 50% * 12 hours / 8 gallons = 5,100 WH/gal = 5.1 kWH/gal

Everyplace I looked--it seemed to say the runtime was 8 hours--so it would imply that using less than 3,400 watts would still run 8 hours... So, if you are running at 1/4 load (1,700 watts), it would imply that you are getting closer to 2.5 kWhrs per gallon--or doubling your fuel costs.

The variable speed inverter generators (like the Honda) are very cost effective for a wide range of loads. And, you can see, why I recommend that you don't oversize your generator or you will be pay huge fuel bills (plus the storage requirements).

Alternatively, use each generator and see how much fuel you use to charge/operate your cabin (per day, per week) and see which is cheaper to run...

With fuel near $5 per gallon--you are looking at almost $1.00 per kWhr for electricity (excluding the cost of the generator, repairs, oil, filters, etc.).

One suggestion I would make to anyone that has a generator--put a totalizing kilowatt meter on its output. If you wish, see if you can find a used Utility meter and wire it into your "generator" port (a kill-a-watt meter can work; but the less expensive meter does not have a battery--so it looses it reading when the generator is turned off/runs out of gas. The P4460 version appears to have a backup battery to retain readings--although it need AC power to read the LCD)...

If you don't know how much energy you are producing, you really don't know how much your fuel costs for the electricity generated/used.

-Bill

System2 · July 2008

Re: new instalation

thanks for the fast reply, first off the batteries are from a local company here in Winnipeg Manitoba Canada

http://www.westrock.ca/

These Premium Quality solar Batteries Are Rated At 800 Cycles To 80% Discharge, 1600 Cycles to 20% Discharge. Backed By A 24 Month Free Replacement, 36 Month Pro-Rated Warranty For 5 Years Total Coverage, SunSaver 60’s Are Designed To Meet The Requirements Of Small To Medium Size Solar Energy Systems With Up To 200 Watts Of Photovoltaic Modules.

SS6V-305 - 6 Volt 305 Amp Hours @ 100 Hour Rate - $149.95 Each

the batteries 610 a/h @ 24 volts 20hour

as for location this would be close

Site Location:
WMO Number: 14996
City: Winnipeg
Country/Province: MB
Latitude: 49.90°N
Longitude: 97.23°W
Elevation: 239 m
Weather Data: CWEC

PV System Specifications:
DC Rating (kW): 4.0
DC to AC Derate Factor: 0.77
Array Type: Fixed Tilt

Array Tilt (degrees): 49.90
Array Azimuth (degrees): 180

It looks like the Honda would be better off to use, I would have to adjust my charge rate down with my mate to _ ? amps for the Honda

thanks again for your help Bill anything else I can porovide?

Craig

mike95490 · July 2008

Re: new instalation

Craig H wrote: »

-6- 80 watt solar modules with roof mounting

-the concirns I have are would a low energy fridge be possible with this system?

A good energy star fridge will take about 1KWH /daily. You only have 380 watts of panels (de-rate from STC) It's iffy, but not impossible.

I guess the solar charges all week, and then you use the batteries up on the weekend.
If you shut the fridge OFF, it takes 12 hours full power to cool back down, not good.
Maybe by setting the fridge to a "vacation" or warm setting while you are gone, and loading it with pre-chilled food when you arrive, you could make it work.

Water pump, is it a pressure tank, or gravity feed tank? if you pumped water thursday, you might be able to run fridge on weekends.

System2 · July 2008

Re: new instalation

as for the pump it's a 1/2 hp Red jacket jet pump that runs to a 60 gallon presure tank on a 20 psi -45 psi pressure switch.

the other question a had was with equalizing the batteries they say once a month with the generater how is this done do you manualy program the inverter when you are doing this cycle?

Craig

mike95490 · July 2008

Re: new instalation

Be sure you use a "kill" switch on the pump. if you develop a leak while gone, it can run often enough to drain the batterys.

BB. · July 2008

Re: new instalation

Craig,
[

6x 80 Watt Modules, fixed mount, Winnipeg... Use website with defaults, set to 1 kW of solar panels (will not go lower), and (0.77*85% inverter*90% AGM batteries=) 0.59 derating factor for off-grid system using AC inverter.

The results are ~979 kWhr per year for a 1 kW array... However, yours is 6*80=480 watts--so multiply all of the kWhr results by 0.48. Put into spread sheet to make it easier, and get:

Month/kWhr per month/kWhr per day
===========================
1    33.6    1.12
2    38.88    1.296
3    50.4    1.68
4    46.08    1.536
5    47.52    1.584
6    44.16    1.472
7    45.6    1.52
8    44.64    1.488
9    36.48    1.216
10    31.68    1.056
11    23.04    0.768
12    28.32    0.944
==========================
Year      469.92 kWhrs per year...

So, from above, we see that you can generate around 0.9-1.6 kWhrs per day...

For a typical installation with 3 days of no sun, and 50% maximum discharge, and a 24 volt battery bank:

1,600 watts * 3 day * 1/50% * 1/24 volts = 400 AH at 24 volts

During the winter, you are down to 800 watthrs per day or 33.3 AmpHours per day... And your bank is 610 AmpHours (that is a 100 Hour rate--we usually use the 20 Hour rating--more represents the rate at which you charge and discharge your battery bank with 3 day and 50% charge cycle--but you are fine in any case here):

33.3AH/610AH= 0.055 or 5.5% rate of charge--that is about the minimum that we would recommend... The range generally we try for here is around 5%-13% (AGM can go a bit higer) Charge to Capacity ratio.

I messed up the above two paragraphs... that should have been done using Niel's calculations below.

(480 watts / 24 volts) / 610 AH = 3.3%

So, you could easily support 2x [ed: 3+ times] as many solar panels with the battery bank and still be well within recommendations.

A full sized Energy Star Fridge can be as low as 1,000 watt*hours per day... So you would be running a deficit in the summer--and be way under water in the winter... But since you have a large storage bank and are using AGM's, you could probably manage weekends with your current system. And let the panels recharge the bank during the week.

Your maximum comfortable charge rate would be around [note: this is the correct method of doing percentage of charge rate] (610AH*24v*10%=) 1,464 watts (10%of bank capacity). That may end up being too much for the eu2000i--you may have to back that down to 1,000 watts or so (1,000W/120VAC=8.3 amps at 120 VAC; you should not damage anything by trying 1,000 watts, and if the generator cannot take the load, back down to 800 watts, etc.). It will take you a bit longer to charge your bank--but still within efficient fuel usage.

So--you would probably run the generator, roughly 1-2 hours per day, and let the solar panels finish.

Typically, you would bulk charge in the morning (and run your pump, coffee maker, etc.) and let the solar panels finish charging the batteries during the day/afternoon.

Does this answer most of your questions?

-Bill

Mangas · July 2008

Re: new instalation

Because of the serious illegal immigration problem we have out here, I have a hidden central water valve installed between the house and the pressure tank/Pressure Switch. We close the hidden main and livestock valves if we're gone for a few days.

As Mike says, if you get a accidental or, man made leak it should give you an added insurance policy against damaging your well, draining your batteries or, running your generator trying to keep them up.

May seem like a detail but can be an important one.

Bill's point about the Hondas. I have two EU 2000s' and they are not only reliable but very quiet and durable. Before my system was built I used them exclusively for power supporting a little 12V (lights & Shurflo water pump)/110V (TV, lights & Evap Cooler) system. Daily, I ran them for extended hours (6 to 8+) and just changed the oil and spark pulg and washed the air filter every once in awhile. I tried rebuilding one but no success. Cheaper to just buy a new one if you wear it out.

niel · July 2008

Re: new instalation

480w stc/24v=20amps. he needs more pvs just to charge the batteries slowly as 20/610=3.3%. adjust for ptc and other losses and you may be borderline low to charge them.
also note that there is a big difference between the part-time weekend loads from the pump and a constantly on refrig. whatever watts you use needs replaced by pvs or whatever sources. the battery bank may suffice for a refrig depending on the refrig draw, but the available charge current is low to the batteries in the first place before figuring the refrig into it. i suggest more pvs even for the system with only the pump being used on it. even if the refrig will be only on during the weekend, this will be a sizable extra load and refrigs need a good part of a day to get back to the normal operating temperature and being able to use it.
do layout your power requirements more carefully and then you must figure on being able to replace that much power no matter if the sun is available due to clouds, snow, shorter days, system losses, etc.
also note that those agms will not be needing eqed in the normal sense and certainly not every month and if you try eqing them like standard batteries you could damage them. they are voltage sensitive and must not exceed their max voltage. an extended absorb stage (voltage held steady) of charge for a few hours would be considered an eq charge for a concorde agm. normal lead-acid batteries up the voltage on an eq charge and that you don't want to do with these unless concorde (not the dealer who sold them to you) gives the ok.

BB. · July 2008

Re: new instalation

Niel is correct--I messed up the charging rate in my above post... Fixed to agree with Niel.

Thank you Niel!

-Bill

niel · July 2008

Re: new instalation

you're very welcome bill.:D

System2 · July 2008

Re: new instalation

Thanks for all of your help!!! as for the fridge, I will hold off & watch the system this year till spring, keeep using propane, @ that time adding more panels 3X 80 watt additional should be a starting point for a low "E" fridge.

as for the Honda I will drop the charge rate down to 10 amps ac on my
inverter,

I do have a water shut off @ the pump so close on weekends great idea.

as for the batteries are they AGM's relabled as Westrock's brand as the
"Sun saver"

This installation is comming next week & is going to be installed by myself,
I had hoped it should be a good starting point with the possibility of expanding pv' next spring.

thanks again please fire any more questions or concirns that I should watch for.

Craig

mike95490 · July 2008

Re: new instalation

Craig H wrote: »

I do have a water shut off @ the pump so close on weekends great idea.[/B]

You should have an ELECTRICAL shutoff for the pump, while unattended. Much easier to flip the switch, and a sure way to prevent the pump from kicking on if the pressure switch goes bad while you are gone. Use the $5, 20A light switch, not the $1.19 5A Big Box special.

System2 · August 2008

Re: new instalation

Craig

I know this thread is 3 weeks old, but is your install done?

We just purchased a cabin off grid east of Kenora and are shopping solar. I have questions for you if you see this.

Thanks

niel · August 2008

Re: new instalation

darth,
that was the last post he has had so he may not be checking the forum. you can click on his username and that gives you some options to contact him. good luck.

System2 · August 2008

Re: new instalation

hi my system is up & running, I have been on hollidays for the last 2 weeks
using the cabin steady, The solar is working great the PV panels are generating 2.7 KWH on a good day to 0.8 KWH on a cloady day, it took a
few days for the system to catch up on charging the battery bank, now it hits the absorb voltage for around 90 Minites a day @ 29.6 volts then floats
@ 27.6 till we hit dusk. I ran my Honda eu2000 once for 2.0 hours set charge
amps @ 10.0 amps worked great.

A few questions I have are how do I know my VFX3524 Outback is in sleep mode or idle mode & when I leave for the week should I turn my inverter off
just my satelite has a small draw recieving updates.

If anyone wants to see some pics or questions just ask.

Craig

mike95490 · August 2008

Re: new instalation

If you have pic's post them, or a link to them, also, what about the fridge, do you leave it running all week, or just weekends ?

System2 · August 2008

Re: new instalation

as for the fridge, I am still running the propane fridge, I have heard that it is to risky with the new system to try it yet.

for using my fridge full time my options are:

-using my remote start with my Yamaha to run with me not
there in cloudy days.
-adding more panels additional 240 watts
-or adding a small wind turine as this could be my best option with the Gen remote start. the 1/2 hp jet pump works great so far.

Craig

icarus · August 2008

Re: new instalation

Craig,

Avoid running a ammonia absorption fridge on electricity, they get very inefficient. Consider getting a good energy star compressor type, or live with the propane. I have rigged my propanes with t-stat controlled fans to cool the fins, intake air behind them that I close in the winter, and added insulation to the cabinets. We use ~60lbs (12 gals) of propane a month on average, including cooking, hot water and fridge. I have never done a calc to see what the fridge alone burn.

Tony

niel · August 2008

Re: new instalation

"A few questions I have are how do I know my VFX3524 Outback is in sleep mode or idle mode & when I leave for the week should I turn my inverter off
just my satelite has a small draw recieving updates.

If anyone wants to see some pics or questions just ask.

Craig"

i don't have the inverter to say about it, but if the satelite must stay on i have to ask what is it's power requirement, ie 12vdc or 120vac? for 12vdc a converter can be used to go from 24v to 12v to power the satelite stuff with the appropriate current rating, but if run with 120vac then consider a small dedicated inverter for it. do look over the losses for both the new inverter being considered and running the vfx3524 in such a small application. even better if you can shut down the satelite receiver for long periods of time and have it update upon reactivation.
as far as pics go you can post some in the sticky in the beginner's corner and/or give your link if desired there.

System2 · August 2008

Re: new instalation

thanks thats a great idea i will run a small inverter to the satelite durring the week that will keep the updates with small load. That lets me turn off the inverter when not there.

i don't have the inverter to say about it, but if the satelite must stay on i have to ask what is it's power requirement, ie 12vdc or 120vac? for 12vdc a converter can be used to go from 24v to 12v to power the satelite stuff with the appropriate current rating, but if run with 120vac then consider a small dedicated inverter for it. do look over the losses for both the new inverter being considered and running the vfx3524 in such a small application. even better if you can shut down the satelite receiver for long periods of time and have it update upon reactivation.
as far as pics go you can post some in the sticky in the beginner's corner and/or give your link if desired there.

icarus · August 2008

Re: new instalation

I'm not sure what we are discussing here, satellite Tv or Internet. In the case of TV, Turn them off, and unplug them when you are not watching. It may take a few minutes to "update" when it is powered up, but it is BS that they have to be on all the time.

As for Satellite modem, I turn mine off whenever I am not on line. Sometimes I leave for a couple of months and I remove the dish as well. Takes a few minutes to connect but no worries.

Tony

LOTW · February 2013

Re: new instalation

Craig H wrote: »

hi my system is up & running, I have been on hollidays for the last 2 weeks
using the cabin steady, The solar is working great the PV panels are generating 2.7 KWH on a good day to 0.8 KWH on a cloady day, it took a
few days for the system to catch up on charging the battery bank, now it hits the absorb voltage for around 90 Minites a day @ 29.6 volts then floats
@ 27.6 till we hit dusk. I ran my Honda eu2000 once for 2.0 hours set charge
amps @ 10.0 amps worked great.

A few questions I have are how do I know my VFX3524 Outback is in sleep mode or idle mode & when I leave for the week should I turn my inverter off
just my satelite has a small draw recieving updates.

If anyone wants to see some pics or questions just ask.

Craig

Old thread I know, but just wondering how those batteries worked out for you? I'm looking at the same ones to replace my bank now. On lake of the woods as well. Westrock telling me they are made by Crown?

BB. · February 2013

Re: new instalation

Craig has not logged in for probably 2+ years -- And we no longer have any contact information. So, you probably will not get any answers from him.

-Bill

LOTW · February 2013

Re: new instalation

BB. wrote: »

Craig has not logged in for probably 2+ years -- And we no longer have any contact information. So, you probably will not get any answers from him.

-Bill

Ah thanks, I figured it was a crapshoot, but worth a try.

new instalation

Comments

Categories