Latest advances in LED lighting

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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #32
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Anybody ever notice any RF interference from the LED Christmas lights? They seem to be little more than the LED (series connection?) and perhaps a ballast resistor. Maybe we should use them to light our homes and enjoy the colours year-round. :D

    Probably a diode and a ballast resistor, actually. Most of the ones I have seen have a very pronounced (and irritating) 60 Hz strobe effect, so they are probably half-wave rectifying. You could plug in alternate strings with reversed plugs or to opposite phases of your 240 to mitigate that some.
    I have not looked at RFI, since I have cable.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • DavidOH
    DavidOH Solar Expert Posts: 112 ✭✭✭
    #33
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    I have seen some of the AC Christmas tree lights with a bead on them. I would thing that the battery powered ones would not cause the RFI.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #34
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Was looking at some new to us in these parts, GE, 10 watt = 60 watt incan., LED "bulbs" at our local WalMart today. Totally different ftom anything I've seen so far, very interesting design. Unfortunately they didn't have one lit. Reading the fine print, this one is FCC rated to not produce "excessive" RFI. Very interesting. Would have bought one, but don't care for the deep warm color temp rating of 3000K.
    Big display of them, looked through hoping to find a brighter, but not "daylight" temp but no luck, all were 3000K :(
    Our WalMart price here? $24.00
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #35
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    waynefromnscanada wrote: »
    ... but don't care for the deep warm color temp rating of 3000K.
    You must really be disappointed in 2700K then (which is the lower end of "warm white" and what I would call a deep warm color.)
    Although somewhere around 4000K seems to be a good psychological "neutral" value, compared to the cold-white or daylight which starts at 5000K and goes up from there,
    my personal favorite in fluorescents for indoor use has always been "Spec 35" which is 3500K. Unfortunately they are not as often used and so cost at least twice as much. I have not seen anywhere near the same range of choices in CFLs either.
    A 3000K LED will probably look a lot better to you than most warm-white CFLs. Have you tried them?
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #36
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    inetdog wrote: »
    You must really be disappointed in 2700K then (which is the lower end of "warm white" and what I would call a deep warm color.)
    Although somewhere around 4000K seems to be a good psychological "neutral" value
    A 3000K LED will probably look a lot better to you than most warm-white CFLs. Have you tried them?

    OUCH! Guess I was having a seniors moment! lol You are so right, the 3000K isn't that bed. Wasn't thinking right.
    Might try one next time I get there, hour and a half drive each way, but might be a good idea for tomorrow or the next day, weather forecast calling for lots of rain, good chance to get the winter salt washed off the car before we plunge back into the deep freeze.
    Thanks for waking me up. :D
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #37
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    sorry wayne as i'm going to have some fun with this,

    "OUCH! Guess I was having a seniors moment! lol You are so right, the 3000K isn't that bed. Wasn't thinking right."

    seniors moment
    so how many seniors did it take to have that moment?:p

    bed
    was that a senior moment or a freudian slip?:p
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #38
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    inetdog wrote: »
    You must really be disappointed in 2700K then (which is the lower end of "warm white" and what I would call a deep warm color.)
    Although somewhere around 4000K seems to be a good psychological "neutral" value, compared to the cold-white or daylight which starts at 5000K and goes up from there,

    I have compared LED bulbs that have identical color ratings (3000k) and found them to have very different colors. The LEDs do not radiate a spectrum of colors, but rather have a few distinct peaks. Two different bulbs with different peaks can still be 'averaged' to come up with a number like 3000k.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • DavidOH
    DavidOH Solar Expert Posts: 112 ✭✭✭
    #39
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    That is what many are doing. They are assembling LEDs of different color variations. Bright White mixed with a light yellow gives a softer white. The ratio may be 3 to 1 in some "bulbs".
    I think I'd prefer some that are whiter, more than yellowish. I would be great to have a side by side comparison in the store! Bring a book to read in it's light! ;)
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #40
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    vtmaps wrote: »
    I have compared LED bulbs that have identical color ratings (3000k) and found them to have very different colors. The LEDs do not radiate a spectrum of colors, but rather have a few distinct peaks. Two different bulbs with different peaks can still be 'averaged' to come up with a number like 3000k.

    --vtMaps
    A quirk in the way we regard these things is that we consider the blue end of the spectrum to be cool and the red end to be warm, while temperature-wise (3000K = 3000 degrees Kelvin) it is just the opposite.
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #41
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    DavidOH wrote: »
    That is what many are doing. They are assembling LEDs of different color variations. Bright White mixed with a light yellow gives a softer white. The ratio may be 3 to 1 in some "bulbs".
    I think I'd prefer some that are whiter, more than yellowish. I would be great to have a side by side comparison in the store! Bring a book to read in it's light! ;)

    Just for interest, some LED units actually use a blue to UV LEDs driving phosphors to get additional frequencies instead of just using different colors direct from LEDs. That allows you to get the exact frequencies you need to fill in even though there are no efficient LED compositions for that exact frequency range.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #42
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    niel wrote: »
    sorry wayne as i'm going to have some fun with this,

    "OUCH! Guess I was having a seniors moment! lol You are so right, the 3000K isn't that bed. Wasn't thinking right."

    seniors moment
    so how many seniors did it take to have that moment?:p

    bed
    was that a senior moment or a freudian slip?:p

    Hahaha They're coming to transport me to the Nursing Home tomorrow, so if you don't hear back, you'll know they don't have internet service there! :cry::cry::cry: Hahaha
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #43
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Wayne lives in Canada; land of the Ultimate Brain Freeze. :p

    So we're back to using Christmas lights to get that full-spectrum colour (red, green, yellow, and blue!). Just do your house up in "Tiki Style" and claim the coloured LED's are part of the décor. :D
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #44
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Wayne lives in Canada; land of the Ultimate Brain Freeze. :D

    Hahaha And we love those LED lights. The darned CFLs take way too long to warm up to full brightness in our Igloos! :D
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #45
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Update on LED "bulb" RFI problem.
    Found some new PHILLIPS LEDs at a more or less local building supply cntr. at a very good price too, on sale $6.49, which is an awesome price here in these parts!
    7.5 watts, 450 lumens. 3000K.
    20,000 rated life.
    Model # 929000220305
    BEST OF ALL - - - Not One Bit of RFI !!!!
    Obviously a different internal power supply etc. No delay on start-up, but when turned off, they dim slowly, taking a good second to a second and a half to fade to black. Very noticeable in the dark. Not by any means a complaint, just an observation.
    http://www.homedepot.ca/product/75w-led-a19-household/822308
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  • CDN_VT
    CDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    #46
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Gents , I have many of these 10 watt lamps Attachment not found.

    Reading on this thread that LED lamps are producing stray RFI . I went to check all my lamps & bulbs.
    My latest conversion (eighth week in 2013) I installed three 14w cool-white 6000K corn lamps, that is now 42-45 watts instead of the 300w halogen mozzy burner that we had over our dinner table.

    So for my testing I used my FM radio : Attachment not found. & my Attachment not found. to see if I got any interference from any of my conversions. This marine radio Attachment not found.picks up any switch turned on the boat , so I also used it while listening weather channel
    Listening to "Mother Radio" and a few more with my antenna stuck as close to the lamp , not one change as I could tell. squelch turn way down so even in broadcasting the receiving unit had no real difference in sound . My wife thinks Im nuts helping me with this,could be correct !

    What I have been able to do is lower my power bill down , way down..

    On the 10 watt spots , I have removed the driver (120-285v to 12Vdc) inside and run them on the RE 12 volt system,They are used outside in the woodshed / stacking area 50'x50',entrance into the cold storage , from inside of cold storage i use Corn Lights LED's on straight 12Vdc..I even checked those, but without and AC , not really required.
    In the green house I use grid power 120VAC and those spots on grid 120vac & they let me see our garburator waste disposal unit while I grid up the compost addition . also very quite.
    So I didn't seem to get any RFI from the units I purchased.

    I have updated all the household / outer buildings. Next will be my Shops , that is one area I like to keep VERY bright..

    VT
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #47
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    I've never had problems with the "corn" style units either, but sure have with some of the "more advanced" Sylvania and "Lights of America" models.
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  • Ken Marsh
    Ken Marsh Solar Expert Posts: 114 ✭✭✭✭
    #48
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Interesting thread
    Am going to try to post a pix at the end.
    On the left is a 40 watt equivalent CFL and the right side is a 12 watt rated GU-10 LED.
    Please note, I did not break this CFL. I found it in the trash already broken.
    We have standardized on the GU-10s and have some 50 of them installed in the home and shop.
    We like the cool white which is advertised as 6K deg. color temp.
    The one in the pix was a DOA which I cut apart.

    Both have a bridge rectifier tied directly across the line charging the electrolytic.
    There is no series resistance, hash filtering or attempt to improve the power factor.
    The chopper transistors are discretes in the CFL.
    All electronic components other than the bridge rectifier are in a single IC with the GU-10.
    My guess is that most of the RFI comes from the initial rectification and
    that it could be considerably improved (reduced) by a few passive components.

    Some 25 years ago I had responsibility of a R&D lab in a company producing OEM electrical components.
    We had some interesting projects to reduce RFI.
    One of them was romex wire with ferrite, and in some cases just iron power molded in the plastic insulation.
    Twenty feet of this would do as much as a 90% reduction of RFI.
    Just plain PVC wire is quite lossy to RF.
    It can be made very lossy by adjusting the POP/PO, the plasticizer used in PVC plastics.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #49
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Very interesting, and the photos. I've had plenty of CFL ballasts in my hands over the years, especially in the early years when CFLs were very expensive. Have a couple of doa units, one with a ballast problem, the other with broken glass - - make one out of two etc. But those days are gone. And of course some of the first LED "bulbs", rewiring them from 120 volts AC, to run on 12 VDC. Those early LED lights were nothing special, just a rectifier, a fuse resistor and a bunch of LEDs in series, and they never produced RFI. I know the new ones are much more sophisticated, as they run very few LEDs inside the "bulb", some I've seen have only 3.
    The CFLs I can understand the RFI as (except for the early inductor ballasted units) their circuitry drives them at high frequency, above 10 kHz to improve light output per watt.
    Are the newer LED driver circuits using high frequency? Seems some of the buck drivers operate at 1 MHz or higher, and that could well be the cause of the problem I've been experiencing.
    Guess I found my answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ4ucr67MD8
    I know what is being said about diodes themselves emitting RFI, but there are diodes in almost everything electronic, and I've never seen or experienced such emissions from them. Not ever. And I've been working with electronics since the days of vacuum tube rectifiers. Not saying it doesn't or cannot happen, just that Ive never witnessed it.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #50
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    waynefromnscanada wrote: »
    I know what is being said about diodes themselves emitting RFI, but there are diodes in almost everything electronic, and I've never seen or experienced such emissions from them. Not ever. And I've been working with electronics since the days of vacuum tube rectifiers. Not saying it doesn't or cannot happen, just that Ive never witnessed it.

    Sort of depends on what else is in the circuit. In most cases there's enough other components to remove any RF caused by the pulsing output of the diode. I'd bet the cheaper they make these LED lights (inside, not retail pricing) the more likely they are to send out 60 Hz multiples of RFI. The guys here who deal with radio stuff would know better than me, though.
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  • CDN_VT
    CDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    #51
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Thinking MORE about this thread, Next visit to the toy stores in YVR & SEA , I'm going to take my handheld marine radio into the Lowes & Home / ACE depot's. On all of there displays , I would be very curious in the RFI .

    I have seen many VERY expensive bulbs & fixtures there, dimmable etc. I find those places are so noisy that if you were to use it at home , then the worst would come out. I had a ceiling fan that made it a few months , replaced it with a 1940's model after testing it and then a refinish & polish.


    Quite is when the grid is down ,Aladdin lamps are lit , APU is off & fridge shut down..
    Some of the internal 60hz house buzz has been dealt with , 1998 LCD tv had constant high pitch, 75 watt off draw, a few lamps that had rheostats also buzzed when off full voltage ..have been discarded.The full tube florescent are only for rude daylight working if need-be..all others now are LED from TV to normal night lighting.

    With all of this cellular/wave/RF/signals , hearing that Bees / whales / fish / Birds are getting confused from ??!! our constant noise ? This is why I find this thread interesting .

    Some city folks that have been here , complain of ringing in the ear's. That is just normal silence out of any city/town/village .. & it sounds good if you can hear it.

    VT
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #52
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    CDN_VT wrote: »
    Next visit to the toy stores in YVR & SEA , I'm going to take my handheld marine radio into the Lowes & Home / ACE depot's. On all of there displays , I would be very curious in the RFI . VT

    Yes, your marine radio probably isn't that far off my FD radio operating in the 151-152 MHz range. Should be interesting.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #53
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Some of the high end LED Disk lights for can installation such as the T67 from Commercial electric actually have a ground wire. I would say without a ground you are really rolling the dice for RF. These T67's are Title 24 California energy requirements. The requirement is not just for electricity but also for loss up into the ceiling. Really nice color and they also can be installed flush to a JB. The electronics actually work in search mode on an SW or XW at 12.5 watts. Costco has a title 24 18 watt disc light is nicely priced as well but is ungrounded. My HAM days are over but we occasionally record music and the last thing I want offgrid is RF floating around.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #54
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    All those VHF and similar radios are usually FM (I believe)... Much less affected by typical interference. An AM radio or other types (CB, side band, SW, Aircraft, etc.) will be more affected by RF interference.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #55
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    BB. wrote: »
    All those VHF and similar radios are usually FM (I believe)... Much less affected by typical interference. An AM radio or other types (CB, side band, SW, Aircraft, etc.) will be more affected by RF interference.

    -Bill

    Yes Bill, these are indeed FM radios. BTW, my FD pager, (also VHF FM) goes nuts when anywhere near my MX-60 if the sun is shining. Even through the sheet metal siding on the out building that contains the MX.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #56
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    maybe so bill, but any carriers or enough rf energy in the area of the center frequency could mask an fm signal from being decoded if strong enough.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #57
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Of course--But if you are looking to locate less strong interference and or trace it to a particular device--The AM unit will usually work better.

    But, if your concern is FM VHF radio--Then checking with that is what matters.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • CDN_VT
    CDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    #58
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Very True
    So I went to find around the house an AM band , All come with a car!!
    Went to purchase a cheap one at the hardware store that was battery operated ,under five dollars , but the taxes & environmental & recycling fee's the government is putting the radio cost at over $15.&change .. BC your unfriggin-believable .. Ill buy one when in down it the states.

    I did find one very noisy E27 4 watt projection style , that was bought in 2009 , and has been in the chicken coup for extended daylight .

    VT
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  • CDN_VT
    CDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    #59
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Just back from a week of USA work.
    Dropped into a few stores with my AM/FM Baseball Cap radio , little antenna & ear buds on a wire , all hides in the cap without looking I just escaped Nascar's Wallyword.
    It works quite well for testing the bulbs for both modulations, plus I can remove the hat and extend the ant with the bud still in my ear,do a quick antenna sweep check..
    Those dimmable bulbs are so bad , just getting close 3m /10' it sounds like Im going into a substation.

    One other Item I did get to notice in the LED frame-works ,was shop lighting has just arrived at some box storesAttachment not found. plus a troffer style Attachment not found.


    150$ -250$ on 120vac with warm white 35K yellow looking against most florescent . Hard sell for me.. they had just arrived , I had a "Sales Associate " open them , Didn't feel like doing any hat & cap testing since finding a receptacle for the plug seemed enough.


    The 220Vac that I see in the new street lamps (also they put the light down on the street rather than light up the sky)Attachment not found. are what Im going to try in the out buildings / shops.. Just need to see pricing and consumption spec's ..Here Im not so noise concerned, when the welders / plasma's / cyclones & ballasts buzz , ear protection is required , APC battery units do alot of beeping on picking up the voltage swings of some of the electron eaters.


    VT
    Add edit : free magazine called LED Magazine. They talk a lot about LEDs.
    http://ledsmagazine.com/
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #60
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Very interesting re the new shop lighting, but for the life of me, I cannot understand the manufacturers and retailers fixation on yellow and brown outputs!
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #61
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    here is a press release on the Nano Light... into production soon...http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/619878070/nanolight-the-worlds-most-energy-efficient-lightbu/posts/416250?ref=email&show_token=de73fbc1a00bab1b
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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