Latest advances in LED lighting

waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
VERY interesting video on the advances in LED lighting. Complete with liquid silicone cooling!
But I wonder if they've solved, or cured the RFI problem. The more powerful ones I use, knock out FM radio and the Fire Department radios if they're anywhere near them:(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/9782116.stm
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Comments

  • DavidOHDavidOH Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Those are high end with color changing and wireless connections.

    Here is something on it's way that is more down to earth.
    Some REAL numbers on them: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/619878070/nanolight-the-worlds-most-energy-efficient-lightbu?ref=category

    NanoLight - The world's most energy efficient lightbulb!

    "Why use any old lightbulb when there’s the NanoLight! Using only 12 watts of electricity, the NanoLight generates over 1600 lumens, equivalent to a 100W incandescent lightbulb."
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    see that and raise you one... http://www.triplepundit.com/2011/01/light-bulbs-beyond-cfl-led-introducing-esl/
    Higher power factor than LED's
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
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  • DavidOHDavidOH Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    That gives a third option.
    Targeted Performance
    Lumens = 500
    115V AC input power: 19.5W
    Color Temperature = 3200K
    http://www.vu1corporation.com/products/


    19 watts and only 500 lumens?
    The LED light I posted are 12 watts and 1600 lumens!
    I think I'll still go with LEDs.
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    westbranch wrote: »
    see that and raise you one... http://www.triplepundit.com/2011/01/light-bulbs-beyond-cfl-led-introducing-esl/
    Higher power factor than LED's
    There is some definite BS on that site which makes me take the rest with a large grain of salt. Example:
    Suffice it to say, the higher the power factor, the more energy efficient the bulb.

    And then there is this: The bulbs have some clear advantages in terms of light quality over CFL and LED, but the efficiency is just not there yet!
    Energy Efficient – Vu1 bulbs are up to 70% more efficient than the incandescent bulb
    500 lumens for 20 watts input, compared to 430 lumens for 8 watts input from a comparable form factor dimmable LED bulb with pretty good (85) CRI.
    By comparison the LED bulb on Kickstarter has a CRI of 70 and looks as if it would be pretty glare producing with the exposed LEDs unless it is put into a shielded fixture of some kind.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    One thing I've been running into is, believe it or not, RFI from the larger 120 volt LED lights. I'm with our local Fire Dept, communications, and I had to switch my overhead light back to CFL :cry: so I could hear my FD radio. That sucks.
  • firerescue712firerescue712 Solar Expert Posts: 95 ✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    I have had the same problem. With about 20 120v LEDs in the house, the pager and scanners all have terrible reception. Turn off the led lights, it is crystal clear. I am curious if anyone has found any 13-20 watts LED's that do not put out RFI?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,452 admin
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Yea--LEDs, and diodes in general, are great (or terrible) RF noise sources.

    Noisecom.com (yes, appears to be a real company):
    Noisecom's noise diodes are the fundamental building blocks for analog noise systems. They are categorized for performance characteristics that enhance their broadband noise output and flat spectral response. All Noisecom noise diodes can deliver symmetrical white Gaussian noise and flat output power versus frequency *.

    Frequency ranges for a single "diode" can be as wide as 10 Hz to 8 GHz.

    And we had (still have today?) nose injection tests (used on various computer systems) for CE that where based on the electrical noise emitted by starting Florescent tube lights (which are, more or less, arc lamps).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    "In terms of energy efficiency, the ESL bulb beats out the CFL and LED. ESL bulbs have a power factor rating of 0.95-0.99. CFL and LED lamps have a respective power factor 0.5 and 0.8. Suffice it to say, the higher the power factor, the more energy efficient the bulb."

    Um, no. Incandescent bulbs are purely resistive, so their PF=1. Are they the most energy efficient?
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    ggunn wrote: »
    "In terms of energy efficiency, the ESL bulb beats out the CFL and LED. ESL bulbs have a power factor rating of 0.95-0.99. CFL and LED lamps have a respective power factor 0.5 and 0.8. Suffice it to say, the higher the power factor, the more energy efficient the bulb."

    Um, no. Incandescent bulbs are purely resistive, so their PF=1. Are they the most energy efficient?

    Sure they are! In fact, they're twice as efficient because they provide both light and heat for the same Watts! :p

    (Some crooked company will latch on to that statement and twist it into a sales pitch.)
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,452 admin
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    In Europe, somebody is selling filament lamps (in Germany) as compact heaters to get around the non-filament bulb requirements.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Vu1 available at Lowes http://www.lowes.com/pd_377410-34246-R30-101D_4


    cost $15 but uses 19.5 watts to replace 65 W Incandescent, maybe not so good energy reduction wise? Price is coming into an acceptable range
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    westbranch wrote: »
    Not sure where the blame lies, but notice that Lowes advertises the VU1 as a Halogen bulb!
    They are not making halogen bulbs that efficient yet, certainly not when operating at "warm-white" temperatures. New technology never seen before in a consumer light source has that problem. :-)
    (BTW, how does the VU1 differ from a traditional cold-cathode light source with phosphors?)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • DavidOHDavidOH Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    That is an interesting dilemma. Which shall I have, switch to low wattage lighting, or have a clear signal on my radio?

    I left a post on the eHam board. Lets see if this has happened to anyone. So far the only posts I have seen were in regards to TVs. NO trouble at all with LED TVs! They are clean!
    It is something to consider if there is an RFI problem with the LED lighting. I'd have to have both on hand. Switching to CFL when my radio is on. Maybe I'll just listen by candlelight! ;):cool:
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    DavidOH wrote: »
    That is an interesting dilemma. Which shall I have, switch to low wattage lighting, or have a clear signal on my radio?

    I left a post on the eHam board. Lets see if this has happened to anyone. So far the only posts I have seen were in regards to TVs. NO trouble at all with LED TVs! They are clean!
    It is something to consider if there is an RFI problem with the LED lighting. I'd have to have both on hand. Switching to CFL when my radio is on. Maybe I'll just listen by candlelight! ;):cool:

    I would first take a good look at whether the RF noise is being conducted out the bulb socket (add a filter!) or radiated from the bulb/ballast assembly itself (Put a fine wire screen over the light fixture to make a Faraday cage out of it?) You could maybe move a portable radio back and forth from both the bulb and a point down the line in the AC wiring.

    The TV which is not affected could either have better shielding around the antenna input cable jack and preamp or could have a better power line filter stage, depending on what the interference mode is.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    I have noticed the led tv in one room that also has an AC clock radio get an ever so slightly 'statiky' when the tv is turned on, static is on the FM band, when listening in the early AM to 'Mother Radio' ( CBC for those not in the know).... I put it down to being on the same wiring circuit.

    Not bothersome but slightly irking.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Well the closer my FD radio, or FM radio is to the LED light, the worse the static. Seems to be radiating right from the light itself, and I can not understand why they can't control it. LED lamps are not the only thing to contain diodes and those other things don't cause problems. Also any DC LED lights I've used don't cause a problem. I haven't torn one of the AC ones apart yet, but it seems they probably have some sort of VHF hash emitting ballast.
    Surely they can do better than that!
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,452 admin
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    The rectifiers for AC to DC conversion can create significant amounts of conducted noise out the AC Power Line. Many decades ago, I did a simple/cheap/quick communications hub that had a simple transformer/full wave rectifier front end--and it barely passed conducted emissions testing.

    More or less, below 180 MHz, it tends to be cables that do the emissions (around the first 10 feet of cable only need to be shielded to reduce emissions). Frequencies above that, it tends to be slot/gap/short internal cables as antennas.

    1/4 wave length is about 16.4 inches/ 0.4 meters... So, for an efficient 1/4 wave antenna, the "physical" device would have to have a gap antenna on the order of 16.4 inches. A 1.6 inch "bulb" would radiate around 1.8 GHz... Much higher than most "common frequencies" for AM/FM/TV/HAM/Public Service/etc... Cell phones, WIFI, etc. tend to be in the higher frequency bands.

    At frequencies below ~30 MHz, we don't even test for open air RF Emissions (very little efficient coupling of RF energy into open field radiation)--We only tested for "conducted" noise (power and signal cables).

    So--My first guess would be conducted noise out the AC (or DC) feed to the CFL/LED Bulbs.

    For short distances and lower frequencies, you can have capacitive coupling too (device capacitively coupling to receiver antenna).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • silvertopsilvertop Solar Expert Posts: 155 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    8)I have found an LED bulb made by Feit electric that uses 13.5 watts, has the warm color of 3000k, and the brightness of 850lumes. Our local Cosco had cases of these with a local rebate that put them at $4.99 each. I want to see how they hold up so we bought 10, LOVE the color & brightness.....
  • DavidOHDavidOH Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Over 100 views on eHam, one answer:
    ___I've got a number of RFI free LED bulbs in my home, but I did send a few from eBay vendors to ARRL. They were unbelievably noisy. How so much noise could come from such a small object was amazing. Quiet bulbs were from GLB (used to be @ Cyberguys) and Miracle Bulb. The Miracle bulbs are stroboscopic like fluorescent bulbs, so 100% use of them cannot be recommended for families with members that are sensitive to flashing strobes.
    ___I'd say buy from reputable vendors and return them if there is RFI.
    73, Tom WB1FPA

    I have a link to CyberGuys: http://www.cyberguys.com/product-search/?keyword=LED+Bulbs
  • DavidOHDavidOH Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    A second person is stating the RFI is in the Power Supply, that powers the LEDs NOT in the LEDs themselves.
    Suggested adding a bead to the wires powering them to choke off the RFI. Makes sense to me.

    I'd rather power the LEDs with 12 volts (or other low voltage DC) and eliminate the power supplies to the LED lights!
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    DavidOH wrote: »
    Suggested adding a bead to the wires powering them to choke off the RFI.


    But what is a "bead"?

    I understand (roughly) when using MR16 type LEDs but not when using 110 AC and Edison base bulbs, in that the PS is internal, isn't it?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    westbranch wrote: »
    But what is a "bead"?

    I understand (roughly) when using MR16 type LEDs but not when using 110 AC and Edison base bulbs, in that the PS is internal, isn't it?

    The "bead" is a ferrite bead, just like a ferrite torus only with a smaller hole in the middle. Its purpose is to greatly increase the inductance of that portion of the wire so that the amount of RF that leaks past it to the rest of the wiring is reduced.

    If the RF is being generated in the driver circuit which is part of the bulb assembly, then
    1. The driver circuit is probably not shielded, just enclosed in plastic, unless there is a full coverage metal heat sink as part of the design.
    2. You cannot modify the bulb, but you might be able to put ferrite beads on the leads inside the fixture that supply power to the Edison socket. That would have a chance of reducing the amount of RF that is getting into the wiring and being radiated from there.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    I don't know anything about RFI other than is exists, so... does the bead have to touch bare wire or can it be outside the plastic shielding?
    I'm thinking of 110 VAC to a set of fixtures then a single (or multiple) LED driver(s) and a series of LEDs - MR16 type, can a bead be placed on the wire set from the driver?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    westbranch wrote: »
    I don't know anything about RFI other than is exists, so... does the bead have to touch bare wire or can it be outside the plastic shielding?
    I'm thinking of 110 VAC to a set of fixtures then a single (or multiple) LED driver(s) and a series of LEDs - MR16 type, can a bead be placed on the wire set from the driver?
    A. The bead should not touch the bare wire. Just as winding a inductor (with insulated wires) around an iron core increases the inductance, running an insulated wire through a ferrite bead (in effect a one turn coil wound around the ferrite) will increase the inductance.
    B. You can place the beads wherever it is convenient and safe, but the closer to the noise source the better. To reduce noise effectively each of the two wires should pass through its own ferrite bead rather than both running through the hole of a single bead.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    inetdog wrote: »
    1. The driver circuit is probably not shielded, just enclosed in plastic, unless there is a full coverage metal heat sink as part of the design.
    Wrap it in aluminum foil? :D
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting
    ggunn wrote: »
    Wrap it in aluminum foil? :D
    If I have any left over after I build my helmet....:-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • DavidOHDavidOH Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    I had to check that myself to be sure I understood what he was talking about.
    http://users.catchnet.com.au/~rjandusimports/tut_9a.html

    One or the other shielding or chokes.
  • DavidOHDavidOH Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Wow! Gotta watch out for some of these....
    From the eHam board:

    " The LED lights to watch out for are these. If you get one of these near your ham radio days are over from 1.7 to almost 150mhz. These are legal 10 to 50 watt broad spectrum jammers.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/10W-LED-Flood-Light-Floodlight-Lamp-Warm-White-Garden-Outdoor-Lamp-/121057218689?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2f929081

    They sold by various ebay sellers and as re branded versions in stores. They have no EMC compliance whatsoever. This is a disaster for the broadcast and ham bands and they just flowing
    into countries around the world from China.
    Its astonishing that such a product can be legal to sell anywhere when it causes so much interference. ....."

    "These LED lights are worst than things like plasma TV's and on a band like 80 meters where signals are very strong you wont hear a thing. If you were a fascist regime or a dictatorship like North Korea and you want to jam as much of the HF spectrum on a budget you would install this type of LED light. If you see these around please report them to your radio society EMC committee, you will hear them! "
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    I wonder what noise you would get if you removed the AC-DC power supply and ran it on 12?v dc?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Latest advances in LED lighting

    Anybody ever notice any RF interference from the LED Christmas lights? They seem to be little more than the LED (series connection?) and perhaps a ballast resistor. Maybe we should use them to light our homes and enjoy the colours year-round. :D
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