L16's vs. GC2's?

PorkChopsMmm
PorkChopsMmm Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
I saw a recommendation to try and purchase 6volt L16 batteries when building a battery bank instead of GC2's. I ran some numbers and it looks like L16's are twice the price -- are they worth it? For me to double my battery bank size from ~225AH to 450AH at 48V it would cost ~$1440 for 16 batteries @ $90 a piece or ~$2880 for 8 Surrette S-530's @$360 from our forum sponsor.

What do you think... worth the cost? I am still learning and I'm not sure spending that much on batteries with about the same power level is a good investment. I mean, I could replace my battery bank to a fresh set and come out even. I am open to all suggestions -- I am looking to double my battery bank this summer and I am trying to see what is out there. Thanks!
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?

    if your present level of capacity from the gc2s is fine for your loads then why up it?. upping capacity does mean upping the charging amps too.

    if it is a case of not enough ah then there is the option of more in pv and operate as many loads during the daytime as possible to relieve the stress on the batteries later.
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  • PorkChopsMmm
    PorkChopsMmm Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?

    In the summer we do fine but we don't get sporadic sun in winter months. I plan on doubling our solar power and also doubling the battery bank. We have to run the generator *every day* right now. I think making some changes in the home (e.g. removing an external tankless water heater that uses as much power as my fridge when it is freezing outside to an indoor model without this requirement) would help but I need extra wintertime capacity. Using power only during the day doesn't help anything when the sun isn't shining.
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  • Eric L
    Eric L Solar Expert Posts: 262 ✭✭
    #4
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?
    I ran some numbers and it looks like L16's are twice the price -- are they worth it? For me to double my battery bank size from ~225AH to 450AH at 48V it would cost ~$1440 for 16 batteries @ $90 a piece or ~$2880 for 8 Surrette S-530's @$360 from our forum sponsor.

    It really seems to depend on local prices and battery brand. Also, you're comparing what are perceived to be "premium" L-16s (justified or not) with golf-carts.

    In my town, U.S. Battery L-16s were $186 at a local distributor. Trojan non-RE golf-carts were $120 each. All these batteries had a $10 core charge as well if you weren't trading in, making the golf carts even more expensive.

    So two golf cart batteries were more on both an absolute and an amp-hour adjusted basis. A no-brainer for the L-16s, IMO. I found prices on L-16s to be all over the place locally. It's really worth it to call several local distributors, in my experience.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?
    PorkChopsMmm wrote: »
    I think making some changes in the home (e.g. removing an external tankless water heater that uses as much power as my fridge when it is freezing outside to an indoor model without this requirement) would help but I need extra wintertime capacity.

    Okay, I have to ask: is this an electric tankless heater?
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  • PorkChopsMmm
    PorkChopsMmm Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?
    Eric L wrote: »
    It really seems to depend on local prices and battery brand. Also, you're comparing what are perceived to be "premium" L-16s (justified or not) with golf-carts.

    In my town, U.S. Battery L-16s were $186 at a local distributor. Trojan non-RE golf-carts were $120 each. All these batteries had a $10 core charge as well if you weren't trading in, making the golf carts even more expensive.

    So two golf cart batteries were more on both an absolute and an amp-hour adjusted basis. A no-brainer for the L-16s, IMO. I found prices on L-16s to be all over the place locally. It's really worth it to call several local distributors, in my experience.

    Eric -- awesome prices. Thanks for the heads up -- I will definitely check that out.
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Okay, I have to ask: is this an electric tankless heater?

    Haha, no. Rheem Propane tankless water heater with small electric heating elements. I called and talked to them before I installed it and they told me it hardly used any power, would hardly ever come on, etc. I installed it in springtime when we weren't living there and only now do I see how much power it uses. I got an amazing deal on it but will sell it this spring for a smaller and cheaper indoor model.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?

    Non Premium L16 = $186 , Premium Trojan GC-2 $120 looks like Apples and Oranges , most Generic non- Premium GC-2's are in the $90 range.

    You also need to look at the Shipping on ones you order. A pallet of batteries can be heck to deal with.
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  • PorkChopsMmm
    PorkChopsMmm Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?

    I agree Apple and Oranges -- e.g. cheap GC2 vs. expensive L16. I couldn't easily find prices for cheap L16's. Thanks for pointing that out.

    If we compare cheap GC2's to cheap L16's what are the benefits? Easier to wire, etc? Easier to test S.G. since you only have 8 batteries vs. 16?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?
    PorkChopsMmm wrote: »
    Haha, no. Rheem Propane tankless water heater with small electric heating elements. I called and talked to them before I installed it and they told me it hardly used any power, would hardly ever come on, etc. I installed it in springtime when we weren't living there and only now do I see how much power it uses. I got an amazing deal on it but will sell it this spring for a smaller and cheaper indoor model.

    Can't just be moved indoors so the 'anti-freeze" elements don't turn on? Seems like a bad design all-around, since the idea of tankless is to save energy. :roll:
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  • PorkChopsMmm
    PorkChopsMmm Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Can't just be moved indoors so the 'anti-freeze" elements don't turn on? Seems like a bad design all-around, since the idea of tankless is to save energy. :roll:

    No, it has a completely different venting mechanism. If I had a garage or some sort of covered but open non-habitable space I would consider putting it inside, but I don't have any structure like that. Here is a link from Amazon -- you can see it has a forward facing vent that is very different from a chimney at the top for venting.

    http://www.amazon.com/Rheem-RTG-64XN-Outdoor-Natural-Tankless/dp/B003UHURXA/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1360088263&sr=8-7&keywords=rheem+tankless

    I think this would work for people south of me. It is just too cold in Michigan for something like this to work well. Hindsight and all of that. I only paid ~$125 for it new, they go for ~$650, so I think I will come out ahead in the end.
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  • Eric L
    Eric L Solar Expert Posts: 262 ✭✭
    #11
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?
    Non Premium L16 = $186 , Premium Trojan GC-2 $120 looks like Apples and Oranges , most Generic non- Premium GC-2's are in the $90 range.

    I said these were the NON RE Trojans.

    Do you have any hard evidence that basic Trojans (like the AC series L-16s) are better than the basic U.S. Battery versions? I looked for data on this at the time I was buying but found nothing. (It was easy to find anecdotal evidence for and against each, as usual).

    FWIW, one distributor who sold both said that the AC series Trojans gave them more trouble than the US Battery L-16s, but that was the "best" info I found.

    So unless you have hard data showing otherwise, I say it's "apples to apples".
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?

    Oh yeah! That's definitely not designed for our Northern kind of climate! :D
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?

    I admit it, I am getting old. A 120 lb battery are more than I want to deal with these days. More Cables, more cells to check. Tall case batteries always seem slower to charge and have more issues. Replacements are harder for me to get. I have another issue that is more specific to me, most of the batteries I deal with are in Compartments that are about 25 " high or so. The taller case makes it very hard to work on them and check SG's . A bunch of my customers had a battery that was like a D-8 battery , but twice as tall, once I got rid of them I swore I'd never deal with big batteries again. In my case I spent more money getting a cherry picker to remove them that the battery cost, same with Forklift batteries.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?
    Eric L wrote: »
    I said these were the NON RE Trojans.

    Do you have any hard evidence that basic Trojans (like the AC series L-16s) are better than the basic U.S. Battery versions? I looked for data on this at the time I was buying but found nothing. (It was easy to find anecdotal evidence for and against each, as usual).

    FWIW, one distributor who sold both said that the AC series Trojans gave them more trouble than the US Battery L-16s, but that was the "best" info I found.

    So unless you have hard data showing otherwise, I say it's "apples to apples".
    A Trojan GC-2 is a Premium Battery at least in Price, RE or not. Trojan has only been adding the RE designation for a couple years. I went away from Trojans 10 years ago, over priced and are not any better than a generic.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?

    I don't know about Trojan L16s, but Trojans have a good name with golf courses and at least 1 Solar 'nut' who choose to use thier Golf Cart size batteries and find they last longer with less problems. The solar nut actually has a garage here in Missouri and as I met him at a battery retailer he was ordering 32, yes 4 strings of 8 for his off grid home. I tried to explain the ease of installing a forklift battery and the chances of him getting 15 years service at an even or cheaper up front cost. He said he was replacing them because he was worried, not that anything was wrong with his '9 year old batteries' kinda hard to argue when someone has had that kind of results.

    I've gotten 5 years out of cheap golf cart with 4 years hard service, and figure that is about as much as I would ever hope for from golf cart batteries. If you have ease of access and a place to put them I'd recomend a forklift battery. A minimal one in a 48 volt is 800 Ah, though you could put 2 - 24volt 400 amphours together for about $3500 delivered.

    "If we compare cheap GC2's to cheap L16's what are the benefits? Easier to wire, etc? Easier to test S.G. since you only have 8 batteries vs. 16?"

    Easier and less wiring, no need for multiple fuses/breakers. Longer battery life, typically larger battery cells give a longer life, often used numbers are 3-5years service for gold cart batts, 5-7 years for L16, 7-15 years for large single cell batteries, 12-20 years for forklift/traction batteries...

    NAWS Battery FAQ's uses some similar numbers for battery life span.

    Like anything, much has to do with how they are taken care of and how hard they are cycled. I know I feel like I should be recycled sometimes...lol
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?

    Battery talk, Trojan GC-2's use to be a $49.00 battery. For the money it worked great and was of good quality. About 20+ years ago the EPA and the world opinion went after the Lead Smelters. It's a dirty poisoning business. The price of Lead sky rocketed. The large Battery companies were able to sign long term contract's for lead and corner the market. Trojan and all the smaller specialty battery companies had to make their Lead purchases on the spot market. The major battery companies have a total different customer base and a more price sensitive market, some have different divisions and they have bought all the little guys and their Battery names . Trojan and others were able to raise their prices and spread out into the other specialty market's ( RE being one of them ). A lot started buying private label batteries from others and trade their production back and forth.

    That's the scuttlebutt from the street and how it was explained to me.
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  • PorkChopsMmm
    PorkChopsMmm Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?

    BlackCherry04 -- thanks for the background. It will be a while but I will keep you all posted on what battery I go with. It comes down to price and availability -- hopefully there is a vendor selling L16's in my price range within less than 2 hours away from me.
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  • shockman
    shockman Solar Expert Posts: 113 ✭✭
    #18
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?

    They are manufactered and sold by the pound!!!! If you have need for high amp/hr's and can minimize connections by useing larger batts you will probably beat the system by a little. Space,size and weight limitations may also dictate. I have a forklift batt. at work that I would love to use but can't figure out how to get it through a 2x2 hole in my floor?? :>))))
    4x240w panels,Classic 150 CC, 4x380AHR L16's, antique Trace 12V inverter
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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?

    Take it apart and move individual cells?

    Ralph
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  • shockman
    shockman Solar Expert Posts: 113 ✭✭
    #20
    Re: L16's vs. GC2's?
    Ralph Day wrote: »
    Take it apart and move individual cells?

    Ralph

    Damn, why didn't I think of that!!! I was thinking of lifting the cabin up!
    4x240w panels,Classic 150 CC, 4x380AHR L16's, antique Trace 12V inverter
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