Last month's gas bill

Cariboocoot · February 2013

Total Bill: $24.62
Amount that's actually natural gas: $4.56

The breakdown:
Basic charge: $13.23
Delivery charge: $4.03
Commodity (gas): $4.56
Carbon tax: $1.64
GST: $1.18

The more you conserve, the more they raise the other 'fees' to ensure their income (and profit).

Since electricity is billed on a similar basis we see the wonderful utility paradox of the less you spend the more it costs. This is what leads companies to feel they should get cheques even from those who do not use their grid power because they've got infrastructure to support. In essence they are saying the value of the overhead costs exceeds the value of the actual product delivered.

Imagine going to the grocery store and being told the potatoes are $0.19 per pound, plus the $5.00 'store fee'. :roll:

As we conserve more this situation will only get worse.

BB. · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

Yea--found that out with the phone bill... It kept getting more expensive for the standard POTS hardwire phone from the "phone company". Over $30 per month and we did not use it all that much. So, went with Internet Phone (few dollars a month+one time equipment charge) and cut the phone billing options to bare minimum which worked out to ~$12-$15 dollars per month.

Now, a couple years later, and even playing more with the phone plane to convert the the current "Cheapest" rate--Now is sneaking up past $25 per month again.

My wife likes the "emergency access" measure of hardwire vs cell/Internet phone... But the fire department is 2 blocks away and we have HAM radio--Not sure I am willing to pay ~$360 per year for a phone for "emergency" use (and alarm system).

Next thing to go will be the Cable TV (keep cable Internet) once the current TV dies (and get one with digital tuner). Over the air TV has better picture and more options than basic cable (used to be cheaper to get basic cable+Internet--No more). Almost cheap enough now for digital TV that the savings in basic cable TV costs + power will pay for a new TV inside of year or two.

Really have to keep an eye on the monthly bills out there these days... They keep "loading" the billing plans to jack the base rates up.

-Bill

westbranch · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

Bill you might want to check into the internet+cable price ....we looked and to get rid of TV would only save us ~$20 per month or less...

Slappy · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

Water bill is just as bad on takking on fees.
Digital over the air TV is great. Saved boocoos of money.

Cariboocoot · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

I forgot to mention that when you're looking at payback for a GT system you need to remember it will only offset the kW hours portion of the bill; those 'base fees' will be the same as long as you're connected. If you can sell back at a reasonable rate you get reduction.

I did a calculation for payback on GT here at this house. Because the usage is so small (16 kW hours per day and going down), the equipment costs so high, zero incentives (tax allowance/rebate), cost per kW hour so low (buying or selling), and short daylight half the year ... it's like 30 years. You run into trouble with that number; the equipment may not last long enough to pay for itself.

Even with the upcoming rate increase it isn't going to be a good value for money.

solar_dave · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

Prime Example for $5.09 in generation my bill is over $25.

Cost of net electricity
Customer account charge $7.38
Delivery service charge $0.00
Environmental benefits surcharge $0.00
Federal environmental improvement surcharge $0.00
System benefits charge $0.00
Power supply adjustment* $0.00
Metering* $5.77
Meter reading* $1.92
Billing* $2.17
Generation of electricity on-peak* $0.00
Generation of electricity off-peak* $5.09 (249 kWh off peak)
Federal transmission and ancillary services* $0.00
Federal transmission cost adjustment* $0.00
Cost of electricity you used $22.33
Taxes and fees
Regulatory assessment $0.05
State sales tax $1.51
County sales tax $0.16
City sales tax $0.66
Franchise fee $0.45
Cost of electricity with taxes and fees $25.16
Total charges for electricity services $25.16

Now lets talk gas:

CURRENT BILLING: 32 Days
Meter Reading: Current Previous Billing Total
Dec. 08 Nov. 06 Factor Therms
5084 - 5079 = 5 X .9895 = 5
Usage Charges 9.06
Basic Service Charge 10.70
DOT Safety Surcharge 0.01
Applicable Revenue Taxes 2.91
Current Bill $22.68

BB. · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

Yep--$20 per month * 2 years + (minor) electrical savings--Looking at $500 in savings. Would need a new TV pretty soon anyway (CFL back lighting lamps starting to darken?). Uses about 150 Watts for a 32" LCD TV. Actually does a fair job of heating the bedroom in winter it watched for a couple hours.

Water bills--Went from $1.50 per 100 cuft to $5.00 per 100 cuft in 5 years (rebuilding 100 year old water lines from Sierras, new water treatment requirements from federal government, etc.)--Not including sewer charges.

In California, people that use less than ~300 kWH per month pay around $0.13 per kWH + $5 or so service charge. If over 300-900 kWH per month, can pay over $0.40 per kWH. Your equivalent of going to Costco for the privilege of paying 3x as much for buying in bulk. This is left over from the late 1970's and Pres. Carter's energy conservation days. And why businesses and people are fleeing the state. Add 13.3% millionaire's income tax and almost 10% sales tax--And learn why Alpine Village (just over the boarder in Nevada) is full of millionaires.

-Bill

TnAndy · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

solar_dave wrote: »

Prime Example for $5.09 in generation my bill is over $25.

Cost of net electricity
Customer account charge $7.38
Delivery service charge $0.00
Environmental benefits surcharge $0.00
Federal environmental improvement surcharge $0.00
System benefits charge $0.00
Power supply adjustment* $0.00
Metering* $5.77
Meter reading* $1.92
Billing* $2.17
Generation of electricity on-peak* $0.00
Generation of electricity off-peak* $5.09 (249 kWh off peak)
Federal transmission and ancillary services* $0.00
Federal transmission cost adjustment* $0.00
Cost of electricity you used $22.33
Taxes and fees
Regulatory assessment $0.05
State sales tax $1.51
County sales tax $0.16
City sales tax $0.66
Franchise fee $0.45
Cost of electricity with taxes and fees $25.16
Total charges for electricity services $25.16

Now lets talk gas:

CURRENT BILLING: 32 Days
Meter Reading: Current Previous Billing Total
Dec. 08 Nov. 06 Factor Therms
5084 - 5079 = 5 X .9895 = 5
Usage Charges 9.06
Basic Service Charge 10.70
DOT Safety Surcharge 0.01
Applicable Revenue Taxes 2.91
Current Bill $22.68

Gee Dave.....seems they forgot the cost of toilet paper in the company bathrooms.....

BB. · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

When I first did GT Solar, I received an 11 page statement every month--And one could understand almost all of the line items after an hour or so of study.

And, they still needed to send another 1-2 page bill for me to pay. :roll:

-Bill

westbranch · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

Don't breath... they will tax that next

Cariboocoot · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

westbranch wrote: »

Don't breath... they will tax that next

You forget our Green Party has already promised: "We will put a tax on everything that produces carbon dioxide."

(No I did not make that up.)

westbranch · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

hadn't read that one yet... Hey why did you get that brochure??

Lee Dodge · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

I pay the utility about $7.50 per month for the electrical connection fee. I have a 3.15 kW grid-tie solar PV system that provides all my electrical needs with a surplus over the year beyond my needs. I get paid about $0.03/kWh for excess electricity if I choose to take it rather than bank it. I look at it as follows. For $7.50 a month I can buy a service to augment my intermittent solar generation system that provides reliable electricity to me 24 hours a day 7 days a week, whether the sun is shining or not. The utility takes on the responsibility of instantaneously adjusting their generation capacity to account for the intermittent nature of my generation and usage, plus everybody else tied on the grid.

I could avoid that $7.50 per month by buying a new, more expensive inverter, and a big pile of batteries. I could spend time each month checking batteries and adding water, and replacing them every 5 to 7 years. Is the $7.50 per month for this service worth it? To me, it is a heck of a good deal.

BB. · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

That is why I have a small genset (enough for a fridge, some lights, TV/Radio, run the furnace) instead of a hybrid power or off grid power system. The last multi day outage in our area was about 50 years ago (out on the coast side with lots of downed lines from trees/wind storm).

In a city, a multi-day outage is going to get ugly (water supply problems, possible sewage backup into streets/homes, etc.). One of the recent big storms--I seem to recall reading that the city(ies) cut fresh water to stop sewer backups.

-Bill

ChrisOlson · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

Lee Dodge wrote: »

I could avoid that $7.50 per month by buying a new, more expensive inverter, and a big pile of batteries. I could spend time each month checking batteries and adding water, and replacing them every 5 to 7 years. Is the $7.50 per month for this service worth it? To me, it is a heck of a good deal.

That's pretty cheap, really. For us they would not run the wires to a single service across private land unless we pay for the wires and poles at $74/ft. At a half mile run from the main road the price, including sawing a swath thru our woods, is right around $250,000. 10 years ago we could've gotten wires for $168,000. And after we pay that, if the wires fall down, or a tree falls on them, it is our cost to fix them. And the "fixed charge" to have electrical service is $43.70 per month in this area.
--
Chris

NorthGuy · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

Lee Dodge wrote: »

I pay the utility about $7.50 per month for the electrical connection fee.

When I lived in Colorado 15 years ago, my whole bill for both gas and electricity was under $50/month. Apparently, these "past millenium" prices are still there.

It's almost $200/month here for electric service, and this not counting metered electricity.

So, I'm in the process of switching to batteries ...

And my wood burning stove is successfully cutting down my gas bill, which used to be over $400/month in winter months.

icarus · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

Lee Dodge wrote: »

I pay the utility about $7.50 per month for the electrical connection fee. I have a 3.15 kW grid-tie solar PV system that provides all my electrical needs with a surplus over the year beyond my needs. I get paid about $0.03/kWh for excess electricity if I choose to take it rather than bank it. I look at it as follows. For $7.50 a month I can buy a service to augment my intermittent solar generation system that provides reliable electricity to me 24 hours a day 7 days a week, whether the sun is shining or not. The utility takes on the responsibility of instantaneously adjusting their generation capacity to account for the intermittent nature of my generation and usage, plus everybody else tied on the grid.

I could avoid that $7.50 per month by buying a new, more expensive inverter, and a big pile of batteries. I could spend time each month checking batteries and adding water, and replacing them every 5 to 7 years. Is the $7.50 per month for this service worth it? To me, it is a heck of a good deal.

This says it pretty clearly! We get spoiled at how cheap our energy really is, given what it takes to bring it to us! Most of the costs cited in these threads are o retry reasonable and understandable if we really look at them, for example, a connection charge regardless of use. Even if one uses little or no power (gas or elect) the utility still has a cost associated with your service. The same can be said for the delivery charge. The infrastructure involved has a cost regardless of how much you use, and by rights needs to be paid for equitably.

For those that would consider a battery bank instead of a grid tie, I respectfully suggest you really run the numbers, over time. Even if you don't include such esoterica as the time value of money, or depreciation of hardware I'm guessing the grid is still a bargain. The same is also true of gas. The price of natural gas is (by the time you total all the fees, taxes etc) is $1.40 therm. Propane is between $2-3 a gallon, (~.8 therm) Do the math. Even if you don't include tank rental/service etc) Nat gas is the bargain.

It's sort of like cable or Sat TV, e costs are the whether or not I actually watch any programming.

As a side note, let's not let this thread veer too far into the political please,

Tony

Lee Dodge · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

NorthGuy wrote: »

When I lived in Colorado 15 years ago, my whole bill for both gas and electricity was under $50/month. Apparently, these "past millenium" prices are still there.

It's almost $200/month here for electric service, and this not counting metered electricity.

So, I'm in the process of switching to batteries ...

And my wood burning stove is successfully cutting down my gas bill, which used to be over $400/month in winter months.

Wow, $200/month connection fee for electricity! How far north are you NorthGuy, just north of the Arctic Circle? That certainly would change the economics of grid-tie versus off-grid. I dare say your costs are not typical for most of us in the U.S. anyway.

And a gas bill over $400/month! How much gas are your burning? I just got my highest gas bill ever at $60 for the month (space heat, hot water, and cooking), with a connection fee of about $11 and 72 CCF at about $0.70/CCF. Of course, I have a modest sized, well-insulated house, and most of the domestic hot water is supplied by a solar thermal hot water system. I will count my blessings even louder than normal after hearing your monthly costs!

NorthGuy · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

Lee Dodge wrote: »

Wow, $200/month connection fee for electricity! How far north are you NorthGuy, just north of the Arctic Circle?

No, I'm not really that far north - between 54 and 55 parallel. $200 (slightly less actually) is not just the connection charge, but a sum of different fees - five or six items on the bill, such as transmission charges, distribution charges etc., but not including energy charges, which are by the meter. I'll soon say good bye to all of these.

Lee Dodge wrote: »

And a gas bill over $400/month! How much gas are your burning?

It all depends on the weather and varies a lot. When it was really cold, it could've been 60GJ/month. When prices of gas went to $12/GJ, it bacame really expensive, so the government even had re-bates which lowered energy bills a bit. Now, with wood burning stove, even though we do not burn it all the time, the worst is about 30GJ, and prices of gas went down to $5-6/GJ. So, it's not that bad anymore.

In Colorado it never gets that cold, so gas usage is obviously much less.

solar_dave · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

icarus wrote: »

This says it pretty clearly! We get spoiled at how cheap our energy really is, given what it takes to bring it to us! Most of the costs cited in these threads are o retry reasonable and understandable if we really look at them, for example, a connection charge regardless of use. Even if one uses little or no power (gas or elect) the utility still has a cost associated with your service. The same can be said for the delivery charge. The infrastructure involved has a cost regardless of how much you use, and by rights needs to be paid for equitably.

Yep and APS is taking some action because the fixed cost portion is not getting covered.

Important News About Your Electric Rates
New Charge on Your Bill Beginning March 2013
In May 2012, the Arizona Corporation Commission (ACC) approved new rates for APS. Because more customers are installing
renewable energy systems such as solar and wind, and energy efficiency measures such as compact fluorescent light bulbs
and refrigerator recycling, APS is selling less electricity, but fixed costs remain. APS is allowed to implement a new charge
to recover a portion of the fixed costs.
A new charge will begin appearing on affected customers’ bills in March 2013 in one of two forms: a flat addition to
the existing customer charge (Flat Charge Option) or a new Lost Fixed Cost Recovery (LFCR) percentage of bill charge.
Unless a residential customer notifies APS and selects the Flat Charge Option, the new LFCR will automatically begin
appearing on your bill in March 2013. For more information or to select the Flat Charge Option, you can call
602 371 6820 (in metro Phoenix) or 1 877 371 6820.

What is the difference between the two options?
The projected total costs of the two options should be approximately the same at the end of four years. The main difference
is that the Flat Charge Option will remain constant or flat for the next four years. The LFCR will change from year-to-year based
on the amount of APS’s lost sales.
As an example, we expect the LFCR for the average customer using 1,110 kWh per month to be 26 cents per month for year one,
subject to increases in subsequent years. The addition to the existing customer charge in the Flat Charge Option for that same
customer would be $2.75 per month.
Before making your choice, you can visit aps.com/LFCR. There you will find more information about the charge and
a chart comparing costs. If you have additional questions, please call 602 371 6820 (in metro Phoenix) or 1 877 371 6820.
For tips on how to reduce your energy usage visit us at aps.com under APS Services or see the Lifestyles and
Success newsletters that accompany your bill. For additional information on the rate settlement you can
visit the azenergyfuture.com website.

Just as an FYI my billing is usually very low, My total November bill was $25.16 and 0.29% of that is only 7 cents.

Cariboocoot · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

This presents the paradox that the less power you use the more it will cost, at least per kW hour.
It also means you will be seeing more realistic billing regarding electricity costs (providing you can understand the format) and will make solar even more attractive, ironically compounding the problem.

Once again the lack of a comprehensive national (in either country) energy policy is evident in all this.

Lee Dodge · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

"In May 2012, the Arizona Corporation Commission (ACC) approved new rates for APS. Because more customers are installing
renewable energy systems such as solar and wind, and energy efficiency measures such as compact fluorescent light bulbs
and refrigerator recycling, APS is selling less electricity, but fixed costs remain. APS is allowed to implement a new charge
to recover a portion of the fixed costs."

I regard this as good news. It means that enough people are instaling renewable energy as to really make an impact on overall energy production. Hopefully some day the U.S. and Canada can reach that point where they have problems like in Germany where they have to investigate energy storage more seriously to accommodate all the intermittent renewable energy power sources.

westbranch · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

How fast things change.... here i BC when LED Christmas lights first hit the market and CFL too, our Utility BCHYDRO offered a rebate if you bought a string of LED lights and gave away CFL's...One of their selling points was that the utility would not have to build new dams etc, just on the power savings of CFL's. Now we are going the other route where we too have all the additional charges and "the cheapest Hydro power in NA" (their quote) the price of which does not include all the tagged on charges. How do you know a politician is lying? His lips are moving....

Lee Dodge · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

NorthGuy wrote: »

In Colorado it never gets that cold, so gas usage is obviously much less.

Having moved to the mountains of Colorado from south Texas, I would disagree that it does not get that cold here.

I suppose it is all relative. Historical heating degree days here are 7355 HDD (degF) or 4086 HDD (deg C). What are the HDDs in your area?

NorthGuy wrote: »

When it was really cold, it [gas usage] could've been 60GJ/month. When prices of gas went to $12/GJ, it bacame really expensive, so the government even had re-bates which lowered energy bills a bit.

Yes, 60 GJ/month would be 569 CCF/month, and that is a lot (8x) compared to my worst case of 72 CCF/month.

NorthGuy · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

Lee Dodge wrote: »

Having moved to the mountains of Colorado from south Texas, I would disagree that it does not get that cold here. I suppose it is all relative. Historical heating degree days here are 7355 HDD (degF) or 4086 HDD (deg C). What are the HDDs in your area?

Approximately 5900 C. Gas consumption is not even though. When it's really cold, say you get -35C for couple of weeks, then your monthly bill is likely to be real big. If it's around -10C all the time, or you get a thaw, the gas bill shrinks.

It also depends on how house is insulated. We had only R20 on the ceiling and only recently added another R20 layer, which helped a lot. We also heat the garage, and even though we only keep it at 10-12C, it's not very well insulated - something to work on in the future.

Lee Dodge · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

NorthGuy wrote: »

Approximately 5900 C. Gas consumption is not even though. When it's really cold, say you get -35C for couple of weeks, then your monthly bill is likely to be real big. If it's around -10C all the time, or you get a thaw, the gas bill shrinks.

It also depends on how house is insulated. We had only R20 on the ceiling and only recently added another R20 layer, which helped a lot. We also heat the garage, and even though we only keep it at 10-12C, it's not very well insulated - something to work on in the future.

Yes, over the last two weeks of December and first two weeks of January we had a large number of nights that had lows between -10 F (-23 C) and -5 F (-21 C), and that spiked the gas usage. My ceiling is R-60, the walls about R-29 (including thermal bridging), while the crawl space walls have R-19 insulation. In addition, this house is fairly well sealed, with a blower door test giving 2.4 air charges per hour (ACH) at 50 Pa differential pressure.

ChrisOlson · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

NorthGuy wrote: »

It also depends on how house is insulated. We had only R20 on the ceiling and only recently added another R20 layer, which helped a lot. We also heat the garage, and even though we only keep it at 10-12C, it's not very well insulated - something to work on in the future.

It also depends on how big the house is. It's been found that over-insulating your house, and sealing it up too tight, is not good. A drafty home is a healthy home in the winter. As they've gone to putting in more insulation and sealing houses up tighter, now they put in powered fans to bring in outside air to exchange the air in the house, which is stupid - that can built in by not over-insulating it and not sealing it up so tight.

We heat with with wood and our gas bill is zero. Rather than throw more insulation at it we threw a bigger furnace at it - 200,000 BTU. And when it gets 40 below I can crank it up to 250,000 BTU if I leave the ash pan door open 8)
--
Chris

Photowhit · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

Thanks for the reminder Chris, I've moved into a mobile home and I have to keep reminding myself to open it up on the warmer winter days, should reach 50 in the afternoon, I'll open it up.

I am surprised at how energy effiecent this 2000 model mobile home, with 3 1/2 inch walls, is, just by being built tight, and I guess the aluminum walls reflect back some heat.

I've picked out my wood stove and will pull the plug in April.

vtmaps · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

ChrisOlson wrote: »

As they've gone to putting in more insulation and sealing houses up tighter, now they put in powered fans to bring in outside air to exchange the air in the house, which is stupid - that can built in by not over-insulating it and not sealing it up so tight.

I don't think its stupid. The problem with air infiltration through the envelope of a drafty home is condensation within the structure of the envelope. That may lead to mold and structural damage.

It is possible to have controlled ventilation of a home without fans, but fans are cheap and reliable, and can have very low power draws of just 3-4 watts.

--vtMaps

ChrisOlson · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

vtmaps wrote: »

I don't think its stupid. The problem with air infiltration through the envelope of a drafty home is condensation within the structure of the envelope. That may lead to mold and structural damage.

The house I was born and raised in was built in 1901 by my grandpa. It had straw in the walls for insulation when it was built and no insulation in the upstairs ceilings. No vapor barriers - nothing. The ceiling in my bedroom was nothing but plaster over lathe, then the rafters, 1" boards and shingles. A cup of water left sitting on a table in my room would freeze by morning in the winter time.

The whole house is heated by a wood stove in the living room, with no blower on it, and a wood cook stove in the kitchen. There is a 4 foot square hole in the ceiling, with an iron grate over it, in the living room that lets the heat get upstairs. When the wind is blowing in the winter you can feel the cold air coming in the outlets and around the windows. That house has stood for over 100 years, my parents still live in it, and it still has the original woodwork and plaster on the walls, although the plastered walls and painted woodwork have been repainted several times.

Sealing houses up too tight is what causes condensation - a house that can breathe will not have condensation problems in the attic or walls.
--
Chris

solar_dave · February 2013

Re: Last month's gas bill

Yeah my house is pretty tight, but moisture is not an issue here. We open it up at every opportunity to get the air quality up. It is the summer months that are hard to ventilate. In fact my office window is currently wide open and it is 50F out, but several heat sources in there.

No need for heat this week, yeah! Starting in on the build of the kWh bank for summer.

Last month's gas bill

Comments

Categories