AGS settings for Outback FM60

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Comments

  • BajaSun
    BajaSun Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    I actually have a Perko battery switch already installed as my battery disconnect. I picked up some more cable today (along with a new multimeter, clamp style for 380 pesos ~$30USD!) and will re-cable over the next few days to balance the banks perfectly and to be switchable.
    I also have a quote for two more 240W Kyoceras installed (as they have to hang off the roof a little and I don't like doing that 20' in the air anymore!) for $1.75/W! Great price for down here, so I can essentially boost my PV to approx. 2KW which should really help too.
    Having been gone all day - no real readings so back at it mañana.

    Thanx all - stay tuned......
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    Hi BajaSun,

    OK on the battery selector switch. But, if this switch has an Off position, where neither string of batteries is connected to the inverter, the inverter could possibly be damaged by the CC still supplying current to the input of the inverter, without having batteries connected. This MIGHT damage the inverter. Sone CC regulate voltage slowly under certain conditions.

    If the Perko switch does not have an Off position, this should not be much of a problem, if the A - B switching is not done quirkly IMHO.

    Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60
    Vic wrote: »
    OK on the battery selector switch. But, if this switch has an Off position, where neither string of batteries is connected to the inverter, the inverter could possibly be damaged by the CC still supplying current to the input of the inverter, without having batteries connected. This MIGHT damage the inverter. Some CC regulate voltage slowly under certain conditions.

    good point Vic. BajaSun, battery selector switches come in two flavors: 'break before make' and 'make before break'. You would want the 'make before break' type. That means for a brief moment both batteries would be connected in parallel as you switch from one to the other.

    If you were using a transfer switch to switch between using the grid and your generator (for example) you would want a 'break before make' type switch because you don't want your generator output connected to the grid for even a brief moment.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • BajaSun
    BajaSun Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    How can you tell if it's a "make before break" switch? Not having any packaging for this switch all I can tell you is it's the kind used in boats as that's all I could find down here.

    Also evrsince I plugged in 4A end amps on the FM and at the same time lowered the generator input to 9Aac the batteries go from 24.6V to 28.8V a lot slower ie 1 hr but then the FM reads "charged" while the Mate is still saying " charging". This is different as before the FM would read "absorb" as that is the setpoint on FX and FM. FM is holding at 28.8V
  • BajaSun
    BajaSun Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    I just had a thought (amazing!) - the RTS sensor is on one of the batteries which is disconnected and likely is colder than the charging ones - could that be it? I can ck temp with the multimeter now.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60
    BajaSun wrote: »
    I just had a thought (amazing!) - the RTS sensor is on one of the batteries which is disconnected and likely is colder than the charging ones - could that be it? I can ck temp with the multimeter now.
    Surprised that no one brought that to your attention. What your doing now is battery management, that's the average person doesn't do or doesn't want to do. I gave up on this thread because your getting the advise that is all over the place.

    If your going to charge with a generator in Bulk with a 11 KW generator you need to be getting all the charge you can and drop the generator just before you hit absorb and let the FM take over. By cutting it back to 9 amps, your wasting more money on gas then you'd spend buying a new set of batteries every year.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60
    BajaSun wrote: »
    I just had a thought (amazing!) - the RTS sensor is on one of the batteries which is disconnected and likely is colder than the charging ones - could that be it? I can ck temp with the multimeter now.

    Um, yeah; you really should be monitoring the temp of the batteries you're using not ones just sitting idle otherwise the temp compensation is absolutely meaningless.

    I know of no way to check temperature with a multimeter. :confused:
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    I know of no way to check temperature with a multimeter. :confused:
    Some do have the capability with a plug in module that just uses the display on the DVM, some could have it built in. These days they can put a camel hump on a dog.....lol
  • BajaSun
    BajaSun Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    Hola everybody,

    What AM I supposed to be doing then?? I just spent money on new cable to rewire my batteries for switching and now I'm told not to. I've reduced my input from the genny, now I'm told not to.

    However, this is a cutback to 9Aac@120V=45Adc@24V - mucho, no?

    My multimeter has a plug in thermocouple for reading temp.

    Should I start a new thread with totally current info. gleaned from this thread so everything is fresh?

    I still don't know why the FM suddenly dropped absorb....
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60
    BajaSun wrote: »
    but then the FM reads "charged" while the Mate is still saying " charging". This is different as before the FM would read "absorb" as that is the setpoint on FX and FM. FM is holding at 28.8V

    If the FX (via the mate) is charging and the FM is charged, it means that the FX has held the batteries at the absorb voltage for long enough that the FM thinks the batteries are fully charged. The FM would like to go to float, but the FX is holding the voltage above float voltage.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • BajaSun
    BajaSun Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    Thanx vtmaps - that makes sense. Kinda goes back to my original post question!

    Is this an acceptable situation? Does this mean that I have the settings correct and continue with the battery conditioning?
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    with 45Adc you are just over 11% charge rate and once you move the RTS to the working bank you will be all set... the CC will back off the Voltage (and Amp) rate if the CC uses Temp compensation in absorb and float.

    Based on results you may need to fine tune things later.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • BajaSun
    BajaSun Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    Is it OK to simply use double sided tape on the RTS as it's moved from bank to bank? Not sure if that would be a good enough connection.

    The battery switch is a Perko 8501 which is a "make before you break" swich so I'm OK there? As long as I disconnect the panls before I turned this switch off, then that should be OK too and not interfere with the Inverter, correct?

    Thanx all...
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    The temp sensor just has to be up against the case--Putting a piece of foam insulation on top will help with more accurate measurements (if there is a fair amount of air flow around the batteries).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    is it possible to sandwich it between 2 of the batteries of the bank? rather than taping it to an outside face? use a bit of foam on one side to 'hold' the batteries a bit apart yet hold the RTS firmly against the batt..
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • BajaSun
    BajaSun Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    I can sandwich it in there which will make it easy to move back and forth. Another reason I bought these AGM's was lack of space so I have a custom rack for them to sit on their sides, one above the other with approx 2" of space between them. It's a really nice setup.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    best location is in the middle , between #2 /#3, next would be against #2 if between #1/#2 and half way down the side.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60
    BajaSun wrote: »
    I can sandwich it in there which will make it easy to move back and forth. Another reason I bought these AGM's was lack of space so I have a custom rack for them to sit on their sides, one above the other with approx 2" of space between them. It's a really nice setup.
    You have these batteries laying Horizontal laying on their sides ?? This might be a Red Flag, I know Gel's you can. The electrolyte is in envelopes, is this a problem ?? I did look on Concorde's web site, it didn't say.
  • BajaSun
    BajaSun Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    One thing I triple checked with the battery supplier before I did it - believe me! He said these would be no problem - I love it! Maybe I'll take a photo one day and use it as my avatar!

    1/2" space between them - not 2", typo, sorry.
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    Regarding these exact AGMs being on their sides, dunno. BUT, it is quite common to see AGMs in racks, on their sides.

    The one (probably small, in this case) disadvantage) of racking batteries vertically is that it usually increases the temperature differential across the bank.

    VRLA -- sealed -- batteries are the most temperature-sensitive batteries, and should have the tightest temperature vs charge voltage of any Lead Acid battery, and racks often work against this. But this bank is physically small. Again an insulated battery box should help reduce the temp differential. However, in the Summer, it would be best for the bank's box to have good ventilation, and perhaps some cooling in the power room (?).

    As much as I dislike multiple battery strings, in the case of AGMs, two strings with a switch seems like a very good approach, if the strings are sized large enough that one string can be rested for a sufficiently long interval to allow measuring resting V.

    Regarding switching the RTS, this could be an issue, although an insulated batt box would help reduce the differential twix each string, and AGMs are relatively efficient during recharge (and thus reducing the heating from the Absorb stage). But, the point in recharge that needs the tightest control of voltage is in Absorb, where relatively more heat is dumped into the batteries, even AGMs.

    Too bad that the battery switch does not have "Supervisory Contacts" that would allow using a relay to switch twix two different RTSes depending which string is being charged. This could be done externally, but would be a bit of a pain.

    And, regarding all of the differing advuce; We all run what we have, and do the best we can. Yes, Baja's genset is "too large" But it is what is available, and it is much better to run it on the dark days than running none at all .. of course. Sealed batteries are quite sensitive to Vabs and Vfloat, but things will average out, probably OK.

    Moving the RTS seems like a poor solution, and will probably will not always be done, and will subject the RTS to possible mechanical damage from the process. There is probably an A/B switch for telephones that could be used for the selection of one-of-two RTSes one on each string.

    Again, would suggest that the RTS be attached with either the included double-sided tape, or just with tape over the top of the RTSes. Then, place a square of 1" styrofoam over the top of each RTS. Attach this insulation with tape, midway down each of the selected batteries. An insulated battery box should help the temps to average the temps of all of the batts.

    Regarding this quote from westbranch, "with 45Adc you are just over 11% charge rate and once you move the RTS to the working bank you will be all set... the CC will back off the rate if the CC uses Temp compensation in absorb and float",

    Probably, you are just not quite stating it like you wished, OR I have misunderstood what you are saying ... , BUT, the RTS's compensation is for charger VOLTAGE, not charge rate (current). A reduced Vabs or Vfloat would reduce the current somewhat, but, IMHO, this is a secondary effect of reducing the voltage when the temps are above the nominal speced by the manufacturer. A bit of a nit pick, I know.

    Nothing needs to be perfect, and never is anyway. It is a good situation that Baja is asking these questions, here, now. A lot of info/opinion to digest. Good Luck. Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    Answer 5.2 of their Instructions : They can be oriented any way except upside down.
  • BajaSun
    BajaSun Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    'morning everyone - update:

    This morning, still working on bank one, starting out again at 24.6V. With the generator (charger at 9.0Aac), climbed slowly in bulk to 28.8V absorb. Held at this voltage, It took 2 hours at absorb voltage for the charger current to drop to 1.0Aac. Sounds like progress?

    I will be working on recabling the batteries and switch today so I can start on bank 2 and ck rest voltages on bank one in a day or so.

    Sound good?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    Sounds good, if tomorrow morning your Voltage is higher than it was this morning. The fear here is that you've already lost capacity due to irreversible hard sulphation.

    Nevertheless, excelsior! :D
  • BajaSun
    BajaSun Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    Update.
    The battery manufacturer was adamant that his batteries have heavy cell interconnects and are built to withstand equalizing. On his recommendation I hooked up both banks of batteries, brought them up to a full charge then equalized them for 8 hours at 31V.

    They are like brand new again. All within 0.02V of each other, holding at 25.3V in the morning, charging slower. Fantastic batteries!!

    He says a bank of this size should absorb 4 hours a day if possible.

    Thanx for all your help - I hope this has been interesting to everyone.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    Good news :cool:.

    EQ, 8hrs, wow.... did you monitor the cell temps?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • BajaSun
    BajaSun Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGS settings for Outback FM60

    I'm convinced that these are rock solid batteries. I was in and out of the solar room every half hour or so checking everything. I could not find any change in temperature except maybe two degF. Ambient temp was 63F and the max I could get on any battery was 65F