Dumb question

NormokNormok Solar Expert Posts: 36
Ive just been surfing the net and found some HY 1000 wind turbines for a reasonable price but they are not the voltage I would prefer. My question is can you run wind turbines in series to increase the voltage and then run them to a mppt cc to get the correct voltage?

Thanks in advance

Comments

  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Dumb question
    Normok wrote: »
    Ive just been surfing the net and found some HY 1000 wind turbines for a reasonable price but they are not the voltage I would prefer. My question is can you run wind turbines in series to increase the voltage and then run them to a mppt cc to get the correct voltage?

    Thanks in advance

    Reasonable price? How much are they paying you to take them?

    In series: Simple answer: NO!

    If you do not want to take my word for that, I can go into more detail on request.

    There is also a lot of information about the HY 1000 wind turbines in the Forum. There appear to be at least two different companies who have manufactured very different units with the HY 1000 name. And unless you have done serious wind speed survey and also have a couple of 90 foot towers lying around, save your money.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • NormokNormok Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: Dumb question

    They are asking $1050 for a 24v http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=8_116&products_id=719

    As far as wind speed goes I think I should be in good shape in SD. Im a welder by trade so the tower mounting will be something I can do on my own.

    I'll have to take your word for the question about series wiring as I am none the wiser.

    Thanks
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Dumb question

    You could wire them in series, IF one side of the outputs on each unit is not "ground". If it is, then you would have to electrically insulate one of them from it's tower, otherwise there would be current leakage through ground from one to the other, or the battery ground and the resulting electrolytic corrosion. Also the two turbines would have to be turning at the same speed all or most of the time. Any time one slowed down, any output from the combined pair would crash, as they are in series.
    Beyond that, I'm one of many who've blindly gone down the road you're now on and learned the hard way, so if I'm to be honest and helpful, I must warn you - - you'll be wasting your money. Sorry, but there's just no other way to say it. The pushers of these types and sizes of wind ornaments, you'll soon find out after your purchase, if you purchase, are so full of BS over the supposed power output ratings etc, I suggest you'll be wondering why they're not behind bars.
    Beyond that, it's your money and therefore your right to hand it over to whomever you please.
  • NormokNormok Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: Dumb question

    I know I know and Ive heard from all the experts on this site ...but Ive got good wind on my property and I have seen some youtube vids from people who have had good results. Plus if by some chance I can get it to work that would be cool to have power outside of a daytime window.

    On a side note...If I cant wire them in series can I wire them in parellel into a single classic 150?
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,697 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Dumb question
    Normok wrote: »
    On a side note...If I cant wire them in series can I wire them in parellel into a single classic 150?

    I suggest You ask over at the Midnite forum, where halfcrazy has been...

    "Changing the way wind turbines operate one smoke filled box at a time"

    Of course Half'(Ryan) was bouncing around here a few moments ago, so maybe he'll catch your post!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,212 admin
    Re: Dumb question

    Series wiring of unsynchronized AC alternators (or DC generators) is not going to work well unless you have well matched turbines and very uniform wind flow.

    I am trying to think of the electrical characteristics of series connected alternators. Will the "low voltage" alternator provide a lower torque to the blades and allow it to run up to speed or will it stall the blades (positive vs negative feed back system--Negative feedback systems are "stable" and positive feedback are "unstable"--In this case, will the "low performing" series turbine come back up to speed or not)?

    Assuming the low rpm turbine does not stall, then having two in series will just require that both turbines be "up to similar speed" to generate useful power. That will obviously cut overall energy output over time--But how much, not sure (i.e., 10% loss or 50% loss). Too many variables probably to give a hard answer.

    You could charge a small low voltage battery bank with the turbines and then use a voltage doubling power supply to charge the main bank (or even an AC Inverter + AC Battery Charger).

    In the end, you probably would be better off getting the "right" wind turbine(s) for your needs. Usually the cost of the support equipment (towers, wiring, controllers, etc.) cost more than the turbine itself--So getting the right one will not hugely affect the overall installation costs.

    -Bill

    PS: Halfcrazy (Ryan), plus boB and Robin work at Midnite Solar (founders/owners in, at least, boB and Robin's case).
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Dumb question

    Two turbines operating mechanically independent but electrically connected in series will be about as efficient as a government bureau. :p
    The phases of the two will not necessarily be at the same frequency nor in sync even if they are at the same frequency. The net result being each will try to push its power through the other, producing a hash waveform of varying frequency and intensity. Technically the power will still be there and much of it may be realized through rectification but at least some will be lost in canceling the opposing generation between turbines.

    You would be better off to run the AC output of each through a step-up transformer to gain Voltage at the expense of current and then rectify to DC for regulated charging.
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Dumb question
    Normok wrote: »
    I know I know and Ive heard from all the experts on this site ...but Ive got good wind on my property and I have seen some youtube vids from people who have had good results. Plus if by some chance I can get it to work that would be cool to have power outside of a daytime window.

    On a side note...If I cant wire them in series can I wire them in parellel into a single classic 150?

    A very big difference between PV and wind turbines is that for PV there is no chance of damaging anything but the batteries by any combination of load versus PV power. And two CCs connected to the same battery bank will each take care of their own panels.
    For wind, the load in the form of some combination of GTI, CC, dump load and diversion controller are part of the safety system of the turbine and need to be coordinated to make sure that the turbine does not loose its load while it is spinning, particularly in a high wind. Losing load suddenly (or even slowly) can cause the turbine speed to go out of control and let the turbine self-destruct. Do not be standing near it when that happens.

    Since each turbine will inevitably have its own input power (wind) conditions even if they are mounted in similar positions, they need to have their own independent controllers. Now if you have some sort of diversion controller and dump load for each turbine ahead of the CC, then you may be OK connecting them in parallel to the CC.

    As mentioned by several others, you cannot under any circumstances put turbines either in series or in parallel on the (three phase) AC output of the turbine's generator head.
    And putting them in series on the DC side will not only limit the output power based on the weaker of the two, but will also run a high risk of messing up the safety load control of the turbines.

    BTW, how have you determined that you have good wind on your property? Ideally you will have mounted a recording anemometer on a tower at the height of the planned turbines and collected data for at least a year. Wind records from nearby measuring stations in you area can also be used if the ground conditions are comparable.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • NormokNormok Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: Dumb question

    Well I will give you guys this...you can shoot down my dumb ideas faster than I can come up with them.

    By the way Coot I really feel like you should some sort of compensation, you have been Johnny-on-spot with every single post Ive made.

    I do appreciate it.
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Dumb question
    Normok wrote: »
    Well I will give you guys this...you can shoot down my dumb ideas faster than I can come up with them. ....

    I do appreciate it.

    We have a distinct advantage in that most of the tempting-looking bad ideas have been proposed by someone else already! :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Dumb question
    Normok wrote: »
    Well I will give you guys this...you can shoot down my dumb ideas faster than I can come up with them.

    By the way Coot I really feel like you should some sort of compensation, you have been Johnny-on-spot with every single post Ive made.

    I do appreciate it.

    Nah, I just have too much time on my hands ... and I talk too much. :p
  • NormokNormok Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: Dumb question
    inetdog wrote: »
    BTW, how have you determined that you have good wind on your property? Ideally you will have mounted a recording anemometer on a tower at the height of the planned turbines and collected data for at least a year. Wind records from nearby measuring stations in you area can also be used if the ground conditions are comparable.

    Ohh it was nothing nearly that scientific. I threw some dirt in the air and it didnt land in the same spot.:confused:

    On a serious side I checked the nrel website and have just noticed the wind is fairly constant. I figured with me being able to fabricate and install my own tower it was worth a try. Seeing that the only cost would be the turbine. I can also find a use for another classic 150 somewhere else if it didnt work.
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Dumb question
    Normok wrote: »
    Ohh it was nothing nearly that scientific. I threw some dirt in the air and it didnt land in the same spot.:confused:

    On a serious side I checked the nrel website and have just noticed the wind is fairly constant. I figured with me being able to fabricate and install my own tower it was worth a try. Seeing that the only cost would be the turbine. I can also find a use for another classic 150 somewhere else if it didnt work.

    Sounds like you are going into this with your eyes open and realistic expectations. More power to you (as it were.) :-)

    PS: When designing your tower, keep in mind the need for regular maintenance of the turbine. Tilt-up towers are really nice as long as your turbine is not too heavy. Most fatalities and injuries in connection with small scale turbine systems have resulted from climbing the tower or dropping the turbine.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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