Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator

climbingprosaria
climbingprosaria Registered Users Posts: 4
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
Hi there...

I am working with a Xantrex XW6048 completely off grid and currently have only a generator to charge batteries.

My generator is an 8kw Lister TS2 that does not provide a run signal. It is wired through the AGS as a type 7 with factory settings except for the Gen Run signal hold time (discussed later), crank time, which has been reduced to 8 seconds, retry time is 60 seconds and relay 3 provides shutdown bypass.

My problem has appeared now that it has cooled off up here in Alaska. I had no issues this past summer, and this is the first winter with the system. When the AGS commands the generator to start, the cold beast will fire within the 8 seconds that it cranks but it lumbers along for another 10 seconds or so before it comes to operating speed. The AGS does not see the AC2 input to know that the generator is running until 15 seconds or so after the command is sent. The problem is that this seems to take too long for the impatient AGS, and it kills the run signal (Wire 12) even though the engine is running, shutting off the generator before it even has a chance. I would have thought that the Gen Run signal hold time setting would adjust this, but when maxed out to 20 seconds there is no change. If the generator is not up to speed and producing power within the crank time (Set at 8 seconds) it kills it... I can override this two ways, both are inconvenient:

The first is to set the crank time out longer, this is unacceptable because then the starter sits there and spins on the running engine until the AGS is persuaded that all is well.

The second is to manually flip the run switch on the generator and leave it on, this does not cause a battery drain because there is also the low oil pressure switch. (I should explain that the generator starts early in the mornings to begin warming our vehicles.) This is the method I have been using. I will override the AGS run signal at the generator at night; in the morning the AGS will command a start, send the run signal and the low pressure override and start it. It presumable drops the run signal, but because it is manually on the generator stays running. I then can turn off the override at the generator, and because the AGS now senses the AC2 it will stay running until the AGS commands a stop. If I fail to turn off the run signal at the generator, it won’t stop until it runs out of fuel. Ask me how I know.

Any idea's on a possible solution? If the Gen Run signal hold time would just hold that signal for 20 seconds everything would be fine, but it drops it when it stops cranking. I am at the point that I am going to have to install a delay off relay in the run circuit, but it seems like the Xantrex system should be able to handle this without modifications to my generators circuits.


Thanks
Kyle
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Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator

    Welcome to the forum.

    Just to be sure we are chasing the right cat here, your generator is not getting up to power output in the 8 second allotted time before the XW says "gen didn't start" and shuts down?

    My concern would be that the gen is at fault here for not getting going soon enough. Since this seems to be a cold-weather problem, you might want to read through this thread on pre-heating gens: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?17820-Generator-Cold-Weather-Preheater

    Could be worth a few Watt hours if it makes everything function nicely.
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  • SolaRevolution
    SolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 410 ✭✭
    #3
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator

    Have you tried increasing the "Crank Retry Time"?

    It may be beginning another starting cycle (including stopping the run signal) before it can come up to speed.

    -Just a thought.

    -Alex
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #4
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator
    climbingprosaria wrote: »
    Any idea's on a possible solution? If the Gen Run signal hold time would just hold that signal for 20 seconds everything would be fine, but it drops it when it stops cranking.

    I'm not sure I totally understand this. We have the older Xantrex SW Plus with the GSM. And isn't the GSM and the AGS on the newer XW's basically the same thing? Just a box with three relays in it? You might have an LCD display while I got LED's, but I think the actual "intelligence" behind the whole thing is the inverter itself, and not the AGS box.

    At any rate, the Xantrex generator starting expects to see a minimum AC voltage on AC2 in order to disengage the crank signal. This is the same whether it's an SW+ or XW. If it doesn't see that minimum AC voltage (can't remember what it is) it will NOT disengage the crank signal until the crank time expires. At that time it also kills the run signal because it THINKS the generator didn't start. So it waits for the Post Crank time and tries it again.

    What you need to do to fix it is put a preheater on your Lister and use the Precrank to operate the preheater. On a diesel this is probably going to be an intake heater of some sort. Or the other option is keep the engine pre-heated all the time in cold weather like I elected to do with our Honda gas genset.

    So again, the problem is NOT with the run signal time not being adjustable in the SCP's menu. It's the fact that the inverter is not seeing the proper voltage it expects from a running generator, so it kills it thinking it didn't start. The problems you are having is the primary reason I chose a gasoline generator for off-grid auto-start standby instead of a diesel. It's easy to get a gas unit to start and come right up to speed even at 40 below. A diesel, especially a Lister, is going to be a challenge and require significant pre-heat to make it reliable.
    --
    Chris
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  • SolaRevolution
    SolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 410 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    I'm not sure I totally understand this. We have the older Xantrex SW Plus with the GSM. And isn't the GSM and the AGS on the newer XW's basically the same thing?

    They are very different. I was wondering about the the "pre-heat" too.

    It's too bad you can't just manually program each of the three relays. Unfortunately I don't think there is a "custom relay configuration". You have to choose between 14 available presets. They're somewhat adjustable but as in this case, they don't work for every situation.

    The best choice may be to use the XW AGS "Type 14". It is a normally-open, close to run, 2-wire signal. It wouldn't provide any fault signal if the inverter doesn't "see" the running generator. The XW would use the incomming power once it was available and it would still be able to automatically disconnect before the generator started to spin-down. You could use it to drive a seperate generator start module which the Lister could work with.

    It's an unfortunate kludge, but I think it would be better than using an external timer/voltage trigger. You would still be able to make use of the XW-AGS's voltage/load/must-run triggers.

    -Alex
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #6
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator
    SolaRevolution wrote: »
    The best choice may be to use the XW AGS "Type 14". It is a normally-open, close to run, 2-wire signal. It wouldn't provide any fault signal if the inverter doesn't "see" the running generator. The XW would use the incomming power once it was available and it would still be able to automatically disconnect before the generator started to spin-down. You could use it to drive a seperate generator start module which the Lister could work with.

    That would require the use of like an Atkinson controller. I have failed to be impressed by those too, on the ones I have installed on Outback inverters that only have a two-wire signal.

    So if I understand correctly, the XW AGS, besides the three relays in there, has it's own microprocessor that handles the sequencing of the relays? So it could start a generator completely standalone with just the AGS and SCP to program it, with no need to have it daisy chained with the inverter thru Xanbus? Or does it actually rely on inverter control signals as well?
    --
    Chris
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  • SolaRevolution
    SolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 410 ✭✭
    #7
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    So if I understand correctly, the XW AGS, besides the three relays in there, has it's own microprocessor that handles the sequencing of the relays? So it could start a generator completely standalone with just the AGS and SCP to program it, with no need to have it daisy chained with the inverter thru Xanbus? Or does it actually rely on inverter control signals as well?

    Hi Chris,

    The AGS would be blind without the inverter. I think that the control functions are in the AGS itself but it needs the inverter for the battery readings and, in some configurations, for the AC run signal too. The SCP, AGS and the Xanbus get their power from the inverter as well. I'm not certian but it may be possible to use it with an XW charge controller and no inverter in some configurations. (Research required)

    -Alex
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator

    Thanks! I guess I should study the XW and AGS manuals a bit to learn more about that setup. I had assumed that things like precrank (used to operate diesel preheat with the SW Plus/GSM with GS Mode), crank time, and post crank are infinitely adjustable with the XW system like they are with the SW.

    That was always one of the beauties of Xantrex generator auto-control - being able to support virtually any two or three wire generator "out of the box" without need for third party components. Outback, with their AUX two-wire control only, is a royal pain with three-wire generators.
    --
    Chris
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  • climbingprosaria
    climbingprosaria Registered Users Posts: 4
    #9
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Welcome to the forum.

    Just to be sure we are chasing the right cat here, your generator is not getting up to power output in the 8 second allotted time before the XW says "gen didn't start" and shuts down?

    My concern would be that the gen is at fault here for not getting going soon enough. Since this seems to be a cold-weather problem, you might want to read through this thread on pre-heating gens: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?17820-Generator-Cold-Weather-Preheater

    Could be worth a few Watt hours if it makes everything function nicely.

    Correct, the generator does not create power within 8 seconds.

    It starts up, even when cold, in far less than 8 seconds. I can manually start it with just a bump on the starter. I have set the crank time all the way out to 8 seconds back when it was warm because thats how long it took to make power at that point.

    I dont know how much experience you have with our brutal cold, but you can throw alot of watts at an engine and still barely get it to start up here. With that said, the gen does have an oil pan heater but no provision for glow plugs or intake air heat (and frankly doesn't need it.) The generator sits in a heated building that is kept at just above freezing.

    The crank retry time has been adjusted out farther, to one minute. I forgot that nugget in my first post.

    I also was mistaken about the gen type, it is a 7 not a 9. Everyone seems to have gotten the point though.

    I was looking over wiring diagrams and I think that a type 10 would work if i modify the generators wiring. This program assumes that the generator has a normally closed run signal, and all it has to do is shutdown override and hit the starter. To shut it down it opens the run signal. Does anyone know if this type would open the run signal if it doesn't sense the power within 8 seconds?

    Thanks for the help so far! I wish, as someone mentioned, that I could manually program each relay.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #10
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator
    climbingprosaria wrote: »
    It starts up, even when cold, in far less than 8 seconds. I can manually start it with just a bump on the starter. I have set the crank time all the way out to 8 seconds back when it was warm because thats how long it took to make power at that point.

    If you don't mind me asking, what is the reason it doesn't make power before 8 seconds? Is it because the engine takes that long to come up to rated speed? Or because it takes the field that long to get the output up to rated voltage?
    --
    Chris
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator
    climbingprosaria wrote: »
    I dont know how much experience you have with our brutal cold, but you can throw alot of watts at an engine and still barely get it to start up here. With that said, the gen does have an oil pan heater but no provision for glow plugs or intake air heat (and frankly doesn't need it.) The generator sits in a heated building that is kept at just above freezing.

    Brutal cold? I live in the Cariboo. -40 is not unusual.

    I also have several generators and not one of them doesn't hit full output in well under 8 sec, even the beat-up old Onan. If you could answer Chris's query about why there's no power it would be a help. Frankly it sounds like a generator problem, not an AGS problem.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #12
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Brutal cold? I live in the Cariboo. -40 is not unusual.

    Yes, and it doesn't make any difference if that's C or F. -40 is pretty much universally just plain cold ;)
    Frankly it sounds like a generator problem, not an AGS problem.

    I suspect a problem with the field exciter.
    --
    Chris
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  • SolaRevolution
    SolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 410 ✭✭
    #13
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator
    climbingprosaria wrote: »
    I also was mistaken about the gen type, it is a 7 not a 9.

    What if you jumper pin 12 and 14 on the AGS? Will that provide the "run signal" you need?

    (BTW; I was looking at the manual fig 2-9 which shows pins 13-16-18 all jumpered too.)

    -Alex
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  • climbingprosaria
    climbingprosaria Registered Users Posts: 4
    #14
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator

    It doesn't make power right away because it takes a bit for the engine to get up to speed when its cold. Even then, it seems to take the Xantrex system some time to process everything. I can watch the panel and see the power come online but the system does not qualify everything in a timely fashion.

    We can blame the generator all we want, but the fact is that I can override the run signal and everything works great. Even if the generator is at fault, I am looking for a solution that will just extend that run signal.

    Alex, I do not have the manual in front of me. I had thought of jumpering pins, but was concerned that if I did that that the system would not be able to shut the machine off. I will look into this though.

    Cariboo, I would have gladly taken your -40 any number of times last winter! We have only seen -41 F thus far, Here's to hoping global warming will kick in sometime soon...
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #15
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator
    climbingprosaria wrote: »
    It doesn't make power right away because it takes a bit for the engine to get up to speed when its cold. Even then, it seems to take the Xantrex system some time to process everything. I can watch the panel and see the power come online but the system does not qualify everything in a timely fashion.

    If it has voltage and freq +/- limits from nominal it will know the generator is running. If it knows the generator is running it SHOULD disable the crank signal instead of letting the starter drive spin.

    We use our generator for Load Start a lot. When inverter overload happens it calls for gen start in 6 seconds and warmup of only 15 seconds. But Xantrex inverters also have to sync with the generator's voltage and freq. Even though I'd like to see the generator online and helping out with the load within 20 seconds after the overload first comes on, it can still take up to 30-40 seconds for the inverter to sync with the generator and allow the generator to accept load.

    So that "processing time" is normal with a Xantrex inverter because it does not have an internal transfer relay that just "clicks" and hits your loads with out-of-phase power. Your inverter is not seeing qualified voltage and/or frequency, and it's holding the starter engaged way past the time it should let it go because of that. The acceptable voltage limits in our SW+ are adjustable, but the frequency limit is not. I believe they are adjustable on the XW. You could try adjusting those down to ridiculously low levels to see if the inverter accepts the gen's input as qualified when it's stumbling and trying to get up to speed.

    While you may be able to come up with a work-around, the problem is still the generator in the long run. Good auto-start gensets come online with qualified voltage and freq within a couple seconds of startup. Gensets that stumble and hesitate and mess around before coming online with qualified power are a challenge. We had a genset that was as temperamental as your Lister and it was a royal pain to get the inverter to accept it in cold weather. I finally gave up on the thing and bought a Honda that "just works" because there's more to off-grid life than messing with a temperamental generator at 40 below.
    --
    Chris
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  • SolaRevolution
    SolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 410 ✭✭
    #16
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator
    climbingprosaria wrote: »
    I had thought of jumpering pins, but was concerned that if I did that that the system would not be able to shut the machine off.

    I don't think that will be a problem. The normally open run command (pins 14,16) are a dry contact relay.
    The "generator run signal" (pins 11,12) is a sensor for the AGS, not a contact relay.

    I suppose it's possible that the start signal could feed through the sensor.
    Aaargh! Someone hit the simple button!

    Might I suggest a very small in-line fuse for testing?:p

    -Alex
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  • Joe_B
    Joe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator

    Why not connect a small wall wart to the output of the generator that would make a run signal for you? This way even if the generator was not up to full speed, the output of the wall wart would have some voltage on it.
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  • climbingprosaria
    climbingprosaria Registered Users Posts: 4
    #18
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator

    I have solved the problem by converting the generator to work as a type 9. Now it is always ready to run, it just needs the AGS to send the SD override signal and spin the starter. The AGS still does not think the generator starts promptly enough and flashes its warning light at me, but it does not kill it. When its time to shut down, the AGS triggers a DPDT relay to open which disconnects the run solenoid on the generator.

    Thanks everyone for the input!
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #19
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator

    Just for my own reference at some point in the future -

    So what you have is a DPDT relay with the NC contacts holding the fuel selenoid open all the time on the genset? So it is ready to run as soon as it's cranked with no separate run signal required to it? Just a stop signal to momentarily open the contacts in that relay?

    Thanks!
    --
    Chris
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: Xantrex XW AGS Drops Generator

    What head do you have on the genset ? My ST head, takes about 3 seconds to build up voltage, AFTER the engine is up to full speed.

    (I see you have a solution, but my reply may assist someone else with lister & ST head)
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • t00ls
    t00ls Solar Expert Posts: 250 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2016 #21
    sorry I'm late to the discussion ....just saw this, mayb e a solution to your problem
    http://www2.schneider-electric.com/resources/sites/SCHNEIDER_ELECTRIC/content/live/FAQS/237000/FA237621/en_US/XW-Combox Gen warmup - Copy.pdf

    http://www.schneider-electric.com.ph/support/index?page=content&country=SOLAR&lang=en&locale=en_US&id=FA237621&prd=


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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #22
    Thanks t00ls ! B)  Might save a few people from freezing this winter. It is coming, along with the equinox next month!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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