New guy trying to figure things out

wannabe pv
wannabe pv Registered Users Posts: 5
Hi all,

I am a new guy on the northern east coast of USA suffering from early onset alzheimers, no kidding. All of 55 now, I was involved in the solar industry back in the 70's, mainly hot water and air systems. I have been doing alot of reading over the last couple months on pv systems but I just cant get anything to stick these days, much less solar related. I have an electronics background so I am not totally clueless, yet...

What I am clueless about though is what would be the better, to best components necessary to put together a portable system to run an Icom 751A transceiver. In the perfect world I would like a folding panel but after reading on some of the different makes/types, {amorphous/poly} I am not so sure that is a good idea now.

This radio is capable of transmitting 200 watts rf and the specs show a maximun draw of 20 amps on transmit, {intermittent use} a couple of deep cycle batteries are in order for extended operation, I would assume. I would also like to have enough panel{s}/pv power to recharge the batteries in the least amount of time if possible. {with portability in consideration} I am assuming {from what I have been reading} that a high quality inverter/charge controller is in order to attenuate any noise on the power side of the system.

I am really lost on this one, equipment wise and system voltage wise (should it be 24volt?}

Has anyone assembled a system of this nature with the latest {meaning long term and reliable} technolgy that is currently available?

If so and if you had a couple thousand dollars, what would you put together for yourself? I really need a decent starting point on this as I have just been running in circles for the last couple months and getting confused and absolutly no where.

This looks like a decent forum with a multitude of experience, perhaps someone can point out the good and correct components necessary and any hints and kinks along the way to assemble this portable power station. I prefer to buy only once if possible.

If I can get this accomplished, I would consider a house system but I just need to start somewhere.

Any and all comments/assistance is very much appreciated.

Thank You.

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: New guy trying to figure things out

    Welcome to the forum.

    If it were me and I were trying to supply the power to occasionally run a 200 Watt transmitter on a $2,000 budget I'd buy a small inverter-generator.
    The reason being that the equivalent power in batteries/inverter/panels would cost a lot more.

    Others may have different ideas, especially those with experience in RF equipment. :D
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New guy trying to figure things out

    maybe we should get more background on what the real purpose for this is. is this just emergency backup for your radio or would you just like to operate it soley from solar, aka independant power source?

    do know that you will need to get a better handle on the times of use and of that time you need to know the draw from the radio in receive and the time in transmit for that mode of operation. an ssb tx signal will draw less on average than an am tx signal for example. btw, the 751 is a 100w transceiver. you need to address the actual load and the time it's on over a given period to determine the actual ah used.

    as to an inverter/charger this is not needed if you are using only 12v dc for the radio. most of the radios can operate straight from a 12v battery as the manufacturers are concerned if the radio could be used for mobile operations. what good is a radio that would need 28v for the finals when all you have is 12v in your car? this would mean the radio has a power supply either built in like most modern radios or a separate power supply as was common in the good old days. a power supply would necessitate an inverter at the very least.

    the controller is basically a specialized part of a power supply except that it eliminates the ac input that power supplies employ so as to operate with a range of dc voltages being inputted instead. they are also somewhat flexible so as to accommodate the charging of batteries rather than fixing an output voltage like power supplies do.(pwr supplies are usually at 13.8v only)

    what i have can operate my radio for quite some time if i don't have the need to run anything else. duration of use and what that use entails that affects the current drawn will determine your needs. if you go by your average use rather than your worst case use you may find yourself limited when extended use is needed.
  • wannabe pv
    wannabe pv Registered Users Posts: 5
    Re: New guy trying to figure things out

    Thank You for the reply.

    We would like to use this radio in different remote locations where fuel really isn't available, nor should it be transported in. Sometimes we are flown into Siberia, Ulm, Alaska, who knows, and dropped off for weeks/months. Other years we stay "local". What we can fit into Otters (or strap to the struts) or a Short Bros is what we get for load out. We were trying to add comms to the party without fuel and a gas engine with more related issues, solar appears to be an option? The radio is a free Icom Refurb.

    I suppose I should rephrase the inquiry to; Money aside, (I have to answer, grants being what they are, rob Peter to...) what would it take to have a solar pv system that would accomplish the goal while remaining portable to a degree (without too much aggravation) and still be able to recharge to a reasonable state in northern photo periods. Is it even possible in your opinions? We rely on wood for heat/cooking in the quarters so batteries could stay above freezing, most of the time anyways.

    The radio would be used to mainly monitor on receive for perhaps 2 -3 hours during the day and transmitt perhaps a half hour a day, or more on an emergency basis. These use conditions would vary, location specific. I am sure if there was some sort of electricity, guys would want to use it for lights or who knows, more radios, weather, local broadcast, charging a sat phone? (if we get one) If available in a reasonably sized package, any extra capacity would be welcome, still getting ideas/clues as I go, thanks. I just try to solve the logistics for the crew(s), I am not the operator so as far as transmitting power and draw goes, I got that from Icom, thanks for the correct numbers.

    The only reason I included an converter in the mix (didnt mean inverter, sorry) was I am sure that we would find other uses for power along the line, like something that might want 18 or 24 volts. I am sure the guys will come up with something to use "spare" power. However, if it is strictly designed to run the radio and little else, unless we have extra capacity at the time, the policy would have to be hands off.

    If anyone can steer me to the necessary quality equipment that would give me a starting point, it sure would be appresiated. I could at least get more ideas and details on which way to proceed if I had a little, basic "test" system laid out in front of me. I just dont know good quality or where to look for it, or what might be new technology that you guys who are "in the know" are eye balling and curious about.

    Thank You.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: New guy trying to figure things out

    The first thing you have to do is determine how much power you're actually going to need, along the lines Niel suggested.
    This power is going to have to come from batteries, and due to the mobile nature here AGM's would be the only practical choice. Unfortunately they are more expensive for the amount of power than flooded cells, but I can't see safely transporting flooded cells under those conditions.
    Then you can figure how much panel you need to recharge with. This is going to be another problem because the location isn't fixed so the amount of insolation available is going to vary. Some of the places you mentioned can be pretty shy on sunlight, especially in Winter.
    This brings us to panel types. Monocrystaline are the most efficient, meaning the most power for the area covered. Guess what? Yes: most expensive. Amorphous panels tend to be cheap but require much more space for the same amount of power. Then there's the transport issue again: crystaline panels are a big hunk of glass in an aluminium frame, and somewhat fragile when it comes to being moved about. Some of the amorphous panels are flexible to the point they can be rolled up, so even with needing larger area they might be easier to transport.

    That power requirement is all-important to finding answers to these issues.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New guy trying to figure things out

    Do you have a 'set' part of the year when the system would be used?
    If consistent this would have a large impact on the total system design.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • wannabe pv
    wannabe pv Registered Users Posts: 5
    Re: New guy trying to figure things out

    I feel like a real dum dum. As much as I have read and as many times as I have read "you need to figure total power" I should know better than to even post here before I have it. Thats one of the main problem among others, I cant come up with decent number, much less figure charge capacity since it would live at different latitudes, unfortunatly, none near zero.

    I need to get cargo space dimensions of the aircraft and panel sizes down before I can go any farther. Most guys dont like flying gasoline, some will fly a few cans of white gas so I suspect they probably wouldnt have any problem with flooded batteries, need to ask them how they feel about that. I wonder how well panels would ride on struts?

    The part of the year when the system would see use would be, naturally (being sarcastic) spring and fall. We were trying to get something together for this springs migrations.

    Yes roll up panels would be nice but setup and maintaining them in wind could prove a nightmare. Then with the big glass type, fragile comes to mind, it would be dissapointing damaging panels and wasting resources to get them there.

    I will try to naiil down some real power requirements tomorrow or at least overkill/worst case numbers. I will be in the shop finishing a rebuild on a Fisher amp. Perhaps I can get my brain to work better then.


    Thank You.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New guy trying to figure things out

    Do you ever go back to the same place , even a few years apart? ie could some of the stuff be stored for a return visit?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • wannabe pv
    wannabe pv Registered Users Posts: 5
    Re: New guy trying to figure things out

    Yes, we went back to the same areas but only a time or maybe two, to one of the same exact spots. Allot depends on how the season/weather goes when it comes to picking the sites and what methods we use to capture. Sometimes we erect on site, some sites we have small structures and tents.

    I wouldnt want to leave anything in some of these areas, glaciers, blizzards, bears, high winds, wild fires, theft... The last place I just finished off last year was destroyed by polars when we returned, wasnt even a year old yet.

    Thank You for the ideas, I will gladly accept all you have to offer.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New guy trying to figure things out

    The "where" and the "when" make a considerable difference in hardware choices. The high arctic in summer is one issue, same location in the spring or fall, or even winter are others.

    Translate that to lower latitudes and the problem remains.


    Personally, I would consider the capabilities of say a Honda EU 1000, at 29 lbs and $800 and it is a pretty good bargain compard to PV in how much power it will produce is pretty stark. Add in 20 gallons of fuel, enough to run it for 320 hours or so and you have a pretty powerful package in a fairly small package.

    20 gallons of fuel weighs ~ 120 lbs, add the genny and you are around 150 in the cubic volume that probably isn't much bigger than 400 watts of PV. Add in some batteries, and it certainly would be lighter.

    Most bush pilots I have known had no problem flying fuel, as long as it is secured in proper containers, and is loaded properly.
    If you are flying in in Piston aircraft, it would be a simple matter to draw n off a fuel gallons per trip out of the fuel contaminate drains. I wouldn't think there would be a problem running a genny on AV gas 100, but I am sure ChrisOlson would have. Better idea. Along the same line, a small diesel unit, could probably run just fine on Jet A.

    In remote sites there must be some fuel brought in for cooling at least, it would seem a bit more for communication would BR a big issue.

    Tony
  • Rybren
    Rybren Solar Expert Posts: 351 ✭✭
    Re: New guy trying to figure things out

    I haven't worked as a bush pilot since the 1970's, but as Tony mentioned, flying in gas was never a problem. That's how we would get the fuel to all of those remote camps.
    As for tying the panels to the struts, unless they were well packed in wooden or metal containers, I wouldn't do it. I've had everything from airboats to propane refrigerators tied to the floats, but glass panels? I don't think so.
  • wannabe pv
    wannabe pv Registered Users Posts: 5
    Re: New guy trying to figure things out

    You make a good point on the diesel generator, they sip fuel. It would serve its purpose state side.

    I've known bush pilots to fly dynamite and worse, overseas though, most of the commercial guys are regulated on what they can fly, there is very little private aviation in some places so we have to rent planes and use military pilots, those guys forbid anything like that onboard no matter who owns the plane. Some are very strict what you can transpot while others fly loose animals running around in the passenger compartment. It all depends on whats going on over there at the time and who/what you can get, it always changes.

    One other thing to consider is that I would be tasked with maintaining and storing a pv system so I would have access to it during the good months, just more motivation.

    Thank You
  • Everlong
    Everlong Solar Expert Posts: 36 ✭✭
    Re: New guy trying to figure things out

    Welcome to the forum! VE3PLO here :)

    I don know much about solar, just barely licking the subject, but know some about HAM stuff :)

    I have few questions for you:
    1. What type of qso's are you going to be doing?
    2. What antenna are you gioing to be running?
    3. Any towers?
    4. Why 200watts????

    In ham world, more can be acomplished with a more efficient antenna and a stick than with more power. I have made numerous contacts, and i mean NUMEROUS, with 5w of power. The best thing that i did was purchase a hex beam. Its very light, can be turned by a tv rotor, it is very directional, and i can lift it with one hand,' its also 23 feet in diameter. Before i used dipoles etc. Night and day difference in signal and tunning in on the weak signals.
    I have talked to Japan, Australia, Europe, Africa etc on 5 watts.

    Please specify more about your setup.
    Go to QRZ.COM and punch in ve3plo :-)

    wannabe pv wrote: »
    You make a good point on the diesel generator, they sip fuel. It would serve its purpose state side.

    I've known bush pilots to fly dynamite and worse, overseas though, most of the commercial guys are regulated on what they can fly, there is very little private aviation in some places so we have to rent planes and use military pilots, those guys forbid anything like that onboard no matter who owns the plane. Some are very strict what you can transpot while others fly loose animals running around in the passenger compartment. It all depends on whats going on over there at the time and who/what you can get, it always changes.

    One other thing to consider is that I would be tasked with maintaining and storing a pv system so I would have access to it during the good months, just more motivation.

    Thank You
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: New guy trying to figure things out

    Take a look at these 140 watt solar panels--Depending on your power needs--See what 4-8 of these panels would do for packing/weight/size and if you can drag them around from site to site. ~140 watt panels are about the largest you can package and ship without limiting your options (i.e., motor freight, pallets, etc.).

    Kyocera is a very good brand.... "12 volt panels" (really Vmp~17.5 volts) allows you to use cheaper/smaller PWM controllers instead of using MPPT controllers (more expensive--But can let you mount panels a 100' away from the battery bank and use small awg wiring--PWM controllers pretty much need the panels near the battery bank for short cable runs with reasonable size wire).

    AGM's are the standard for shipping (should be no hazardous issues). NiCad will be lighter (common for higher end aircraft)--But you may have import issues (Cadmium) for some countries. Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries; LFP; LiFePO4 would probably the the High Tech solution... Light, powerful, getting some good reviews out there. Not going to be cheap and you will need to do lots of research to implement.

    -Bill




    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset