Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Bronson
Bronson Registered Users Posts: 17
Hi,

I purchased these about a 2 Months ago (New to Solar ;));

2- 125watts Solar Panel = 250Watts - Rated about 6.5A Output Each
1- 30Amp LED Solar Charger Controller
1- New Large Duracell Battery #79 - CA- 1000 or CCA-840

During the last 4 days of Rain this past week. My Lighting System drained the Battery to 10.5V and the System shut itself off, which is Normal since I set it up that way.

Yesterday we got some Sun and today we got Sun all day. Yesterday I got about 8AMPs total putting in to my Battery. Today, I got about 9AMPs as well and it's about 12:45PM EST, and the usage for last night was 12AMPs Total.

Now the Charger Controller is reporting that it's only taking about 2-3 AMPs and it I turn on all the Lights (About 8 AMPs) the AMPs on the Charge Controller would jumped to about 10 to 11AMPs. If I shut it Off, the Charger Controller would go back to about 2-3 AMPs again.

The last time when it rained for 4 days, my System was acting the same thing.... Not enough Battery Juice after just about 12APMs usage per day (12X4= 48AMPs). I am starting to wonder if the Battery is too Strong for my System. I'm wondering if I should get 4 Small Batteries and hook them together rather than using just 1 Big Battery.

Since the Battery is too Strong for the Panels, it can only go to about 10-12AMPS of input... I don't think that's how it's designed. Am I wrong?

Please help me with what you can, I also hope I can explain it clearly. Thank you very much!

:D
«1

Comments

  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    Hi Bronson, welcome to the form.
    Simple answer - - you're taking way more power from you're batteries than you're panels can replace, and the result is your batteries are being killed in more ways than one :cry:
    You should NEVER permit you're batteries to be drained like that.
    But don't feel too bad, as even though most batteries do not die, they are murdered, you are not alone, almost everyone murders their first set of RE batteries.
  • Bronson
    Bronson Registered Users Posts: 17
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    Hi Bronson, welcome to the form.
    Simple answer - - you're taking way more power from you're batteries than you're panels can replace, and the result is your batteries are being killed in more ways than one :cry:

    Hmmmm... Strange....

    I only used about 48 - 50 AMPS in Total the Past Week because of 4 Days of Rain. I think my Battery is big enough for that right?

    On an average, I only use about 12AMPS per night.

    My Panels output is about 9-12AMPS per hour on a good sunny day.

    Right now it said my Battery is FULL which I know it's NOT, because if I turn on all my lights, it said it's about 10.5 AMPs coming from the Panels.

    My New DEAD Battery?

    :cry::cry:
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    Well the battery is the wrong kind for one thing. If you see it rated as Cold Cranking Amps it's a starting battery not a deep cycle and not suitable for the application.
    Even if it were, taking it down to 10.5 Volts is too low. That is completely discharged for a 12 Volt battery. If you want to be able to recharge it over and over it's best not to go below 50% state of charge, which corresponds to a resting Voltage of approximately 12.

    What you have:

    250 Watts of panel. If each of these 125 Watters has an Imp rating of 6.5 then their Vmp would be about 19. That's pretty unusual for a panel. Are you sure it's right?
    Together they'd put out 13 Amps, so a 30 Amp controller could certainly handle that. Overkill, in fact. All told the panels would support 130 Amp hours @ 12 Volts or 780 Watt hours on the DC side, which is pretty easy to exceed.

    I can't find any specs on a "Duracell #79" but the battery is probably now toast anyway.

    You really have to design an off-grid system based on the load needs, not buying some equipment and hoping it will work. If you know what kind of Watt hours you need it is a lot easier to get it right. Do you have any specs on these lights you use (Watts and how long you need to run them)?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    Bronson wrote: »
    Hmmmm... Strange....

    I only used about 48 - 50 AMPS in Total the Past Week because of 4 Days of Rain. I think my Battery is big enough for that right?

    On an average, I only use about 12AMPS per night.

    My Panels output is about 9-12AMPS per hour on a good sunny day.

    Right now it said my Battery is FULL which I know it's NOT, because if I turn on all my lights, it said it's about 10.5 AMPs coming from the Panels.

    My New DEAD Battery?

    :cry::cry:


    Nope. Amps is not a quantity of power. Watt hours is. That's Amps * Volts * time.
    So the amount of Watt hours you use in one day has to be made up for (plus losses in recharging) by the panels in the limited amount of time they get light (hours of equivalent good sun). What's worse, the panels do not produce their full rating all day. More like 80% of the rating, less efficiency losses.

    So whereas the 250 Watts of panels may make (250 * 0.77 * 4 hours) 770 Watt hours per day you can easily exceed this. For instance if that is 12 Amp hours you use, at 12 Volts that's 144 Watt hours. If it's 12 Amps @ 12 Volts for 5 hours that's 720 Watt hours.

    How are you coming up with the usage number of "12 Amps"?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    To be clear about the math...

    Amps is a rate, like Miles per Hour

    Amp*Hours is an amount, like Miles driven.

    Your battery has a capacity of around 80-100 Amp*Hours. And is most likely an automotive battery designed for starting a car/truck. These are not good batteries for "deep cycling"--They are really only designed to be discharged from 100% to ~85% start of charge in normal operation.

    Now, regarding your usage... Say your panels output ~12 amps peak, and the total daily amount of sun may be ~5 hours of sun. The amount of Amp*Hours replaced would be (roughly):
    • 12 amps * 5 hours = 60 Amp*Hours per sunny day this time of year

    If you are using ~12 amps * 4 hours per day--That is about 48 Amp*Hours per day


    60 Amp*Hours (guess) replacing ~48 Amp*Hours usage per day is OK--About the maximum I would suggest for daily use (in sunny weather).

    The problem is your battery. I am not sure which battery type/model you have (google returns a 12 volt garage door remote battery--size of a AA alkaline)...

    But, from your specs., if this is an 80-100 AH battery, you will kill it with two days of use in cloudy weather.

    For the most part, deep cycle batteries should never be discharged to 20% state of charge (SOC). Below this point, you will probably damage/kill the battery.

    Daily discharge to 50% state of charge (SOC) or lower, will tend to shorten the life of a Deep Cycle battery (a few years of life).

    Daily "deep cycling" of an automotive battery can kill it in weeks/months--They are not designed for this.

    So--More than likely, your system is working fine. You are simply using more power than the battery bank is capable of storing/delivering over several days.

    Ideally, you should not discharge the battery below ~11.5 volts--And really below 12 volts is probably pushing it for this type battery.

    [delete comment about, what turned out to be, posts being copied to other website for content+ad revenue]

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Bronson
    Bronson Registered Users Posts: 17
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    Nope. Amps is not a quantity of power. Watt hours is. That's Amps * Volts * time.
    So the amount of Watt hours you use in one day has to be made up for (plus losses in recharging) by the panels in the limited amount of time they get light (hours of equivalent good sun). What's worse, the panels do not produce their full rating all day. More like 80% of the rating, less efficiency losses.

    So whereas the 250 Watts of panels may make (250 * 0.77 * 4 hours) 770 Watt hours per day you can easily exceed this. For instance if that is 12 Amp hours you use, at 12 Volts that's 144 Watt hours. If it's 12 Amps @ 12 Volts for 5 hours that's 720 Watt hours.

    How are you coming up with the usage number of "12 Amps"?

    I put all my lights on a 12V DC Motion Detector, I have about 16 LEDs Total in the House and when all on, it's about 8AmpsH

    But since it's NOT on all the time, 30Sec Auto Shut Off . It's an average of only about 12-14 AMPS total per night usage.

    :D

    Here is what I have;

    2 (Two) Solar Panels of 125W= 250W - Rated about 6.5Amp each= 12-13Amp
    1 (One) 30Amp LED Solar Charger Controller
    1 (One) New Large Duracell Battery #79 - CA- 1000 or CCA-840
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    Okay, so we can say all the loads are DC and there is no inverter used? That's a start.

    With the lights controlled that way the only method of getting an accurate reading on power consumption is with a battery monitor. They're not cheap. Some examples: http://www.solar-electric.com/metersmonitors.html (Note that the MidNite battery meter is not a true monitor in the sense that it does not track current in and out.)

    I'll hazard a guess that the #79 battery is a Group 79, which refers to the case size. It's still the wrong sort of battery for this use, and probably already ruined.

    Now, what are you using for a charge controller exactly? Morningstar has some nice ones with low Voltage disconnect for LOAD terminals which might be more suitable. Like this one: http://www.solar-electric.com/ss-20l.html

    Since your loads are only at night (right?), you could get away with the minimum recommended peak charging current of 5%. This means you could basically use the inexpensive golf cart batteries: two 220 Amp hour 6 Volt units in series to give 12 Volts. With 13 Amps peak current, that would be a charge rate of just under 6%. You can sometimes get these at the big box stores for less than $100 each.

    As it is, the battery is the biggest problem with the system (and having too low a setting on the LVD). Like Bill said, and auto battery would be around 90 to 100 Amp hours. At 50% DOD it would give you maybe 540 Watt hours to work with. Upgrade to the golf cart units and you'll have twice that and still be able to recharge from the same panels. The downside is that after two days of no sun you will not be able to recharge fast enough. A bit of supplemental charging is in order.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    OK, if you are using 12-14 Amp*Hours per night and your panels are free of shade from ~9amp to 3pm (or longer), and using PV Watts for Boston Mass, fixed array tilted to about 45 degrees, we get:
    Month    Solar Radiation (kWh/m 2/day)
    1      3.36     
    2      4.36     
    3      4.79     
    4      4.92     
    5      5.33     
    6      5.41     
    7      5.60     
    8      5.64     
    9      5.13     
    10      4.65     
    11      3.14     
    12      2.98     
    Year      4.61
    

    Take 4.65 hours of noon time sun per day, 0.62 system efficiency (solar+controller+battery, no AC inverter), your typical daily energy would be:
    • 250 watts * 0.62 * 4.65 hours of sun = 721 Watt*Hours per day for average October day
    • 721 WH/12.5 volt battery bank = 58 AH per day average for October

    So, you should have more than enough solar array for your loads.

    The battery, still don't know what model, is probably around 80 AmpHour capacity (at 20 Hour rate). Or
    • 80 AH / 13 AH per day = 6.2 days until dead (assuming no sun).

    In reality, for long life you don't want to take out more than ~25% to 50% of the battery's capacity before recharging for longer battery life.

    That gets back to the charging system. If you are seeing >10.5 amps on a typical sunny day right now--Everything sounds OK there.

    That would lead me to question the solar charger... Monitor the battery voltage during charging... it will start low (especially if the battery is "dead"), but it should rise fairly quickly over 12.7 volts then slowly climb to ~14.2-14.5 volts and hold there for 2-6 hours to fully recharge the battery bank note, measure voltage at the battery itself, not at the controllers output).

    If you do not see this happening, then start looking at voltage at the controller output (when charging at "high current" and make sure you do not have more than ~0.1 volt drop from the controller to the battery bank). If you have too much voltage drop, the battery will be under/slowly charged.

    Again, at this point, I would be concerned that the battery is damaged--So this tests may help you "find/fix" other problems--But once you have those addressed, you still may end up needing a battery in the near future (and get a deep cycle type next time).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    btw bronson,
    with an 8 amp draw over an hour and a half of use it becomes 12 amp hours (ah). now with a 30 second drop out time that amounts to allot of trips on that ir sensor to amount to that much being drawn. 90 min x 2 per min = 180 trips.
  • Bronson
    Bronson Registered Users Posts: 17
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    niel wrote: »
    btw bronson,
    with an 8 amp draw over an hour and a half of use it becomes 12 amp hours (ah). now with a 30 second drop out time that amounts to allot of trips on that ir sensor to amount to that much being drawn. 90 min x 2 per min = 180 trips.

    I have 16 LEDs on about 10 - 12V DC Motion Detector :) Ya, it's alot of Tripping for about 8 People, LOL

    I think it's a BAD Battery, the Voltage is about 9.6V coming from the Battery :(

    Can I use a Battery Charger to ReLive it? Is that possible... Thankx to all so far!
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    Not usually... So, now that it does not matter--Do you have a car battery charger and utility power handy? Just recharge it and see what happens.

    Depending on the charger, you can open the caps (if not sealed) and hit it with higher than normal voltage (~14.5 to 15.5 volts) and let it bubble pretty good for an hour.

    And--Get yourself a good Hydrometer so you can measure specific gravity of the battery--That will tell you how charged it is at any time (also, if it is sulfated, the fully charge SG will be "low").

    Here are a couple good FAQ's to read:

    Battery FAQ
    www.batteryfaq.org

    The battery really is the "heart" of your off grid power system. You control the loads to ensure that the battery does not get discharged too deeply. And you design the charging portion to quickly and fully recharge the battery bank in a few days at most (if deeply discharged).

    Nominally, that means that your charging current should be around 5% to 13% of of the battery's 20 Hour Rating (i.e., a 100 AH battery should have ~5-13 amps of charging current).

    If too low, the battery may never get fully charged (especially if used daily for loads) and not chemically have enough current to stave of early aging.

    Too much charging current--A "waste of money" (especially when solar panels used to be $10+ per watt vs the $2 a watt or less these days), and if you have a very discharged battery and charge it quickly it can overheat (nominally, avoid >~20-25% rate of charge unless you monitor the bank temperature--for flooded cell batteries).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Bronson
    Bronson Registered Users Posts: 17
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    BB. wrote: »
    I think I found the hosting company/IP range for these folks... And I see the very next door IP address is scraping this thread. So--They have all been banned. Hopefully, we will not see everyone's hard work ending up at that again.

    -Bill

    First, Bill can you delete these things from the Thread? I don't think it has anything to do with me seeking help :([I have deleted the other posts. -Bill B.]

    Thank you!

    UPDATE;
    Ok, the past 2 days I'm on a NEW Battery. It's still doing the same thing.... :(

    I get about 9AMPS in total per day that's it :(, what is wrong :( When I tested everything... Like Wiring, Battery, Charger Controller... Everything is working good, Output Voltage is fine(See Below). My 30AMPS Charger Controller is reporting that it's getting the AMPS right, 8-10+ AMPS per Hour

    From Panels (Sun / Cloud): 14.5V-16V
    From Battery: 12.7V
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    Okay, back to getting the terminology right.
    You did not get "9 Amps in total per day" because that isn't a quantity of power. You may have gotten 9 Amp hours (@ Voltage) or a peak current of 9 Amps. It makes a difference which and how you are measuring it.
    With any battery based system the total power harvested from panels is limited by how much the batteries need. If they are not deeply discharged, the panels will stop producing sooner rather than later and the total Watt hours harvested will be less than the maximum potential.

    Frankly if you don't have a battery monitor or hydrometer you do not have any way of telling the most important thing: how much the batteries are being discharged and how well they are being recharged. Merely looking at the numbers on a charge controller indicating current will tell you nothing of value.
  • Bronson
    Bronson Registered Users Posts: 17
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    Okay, back to getting the terminology right.
    You did not get "9 Amps in total per day" because that isn't a quantity of power. You may have gotten 9 Amp hours (@ Voltage) or a peak current of 9 Amps. It makes a difference which and how you are measuring it.
    With any battery based system the total power harvested from panels is limited by how much the batteries need. If they are not deeply discharged, the panels will stop producing sooner rather than later and the total Watt hours harvested will be less than the maximum potential.

    Frankly if you don't have a battery monitor or hydrometer you do not have any way of telling the most important thing: how much the batteries are being discharged and how well they are being recharged. Merely looking at the numbers on a charge controller indicating current will tell you nothing of value.

    Hi,

    My LCD Charger Controller does have a Discharge Monitoring thingy...

    It said I used in Total of 28 AMPS in 2 Days

    But with 2 days, the Panels is only putting back 9 AMPS :(, althought it was Cloudy and Sunny. The AMPS thingy on the Charger Controller said it's getting about 4-6 AMPS per Hour. It only fluctuate cause it's a Sunny / Cloudy day

    NOTE: I didn't RESET the Controller so I can Monitor it.

    Here is a link to it.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/30A-DIGITAL-Solar-Charge-Controller-12V-Digital-LCD-Screen-PWM-Charger-Steca-/120995048381?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2bddebbd
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    Just to be clear... Amps is a rate (miles per hour).

    Amps*Hours is an amount (miles driven).

    If you used 28 Amp*Hours in two days, and only returned 9 Amp*Hour over that time, you are "down" at least 19 Amp*Hours.

    Do you have alternative recharging resources (grid, generator, etc.), or can you stop using so much power during bad weather?

    What is the battery voltage during recharging? >13.6 volts is beginning to slowly recharge... ~14.5 volts is recharging the battery quickly, or nearing the end of the charging cycle (if it stays at ~14.5 volts for 2-6 hours--current tapers down towards zero as the battery finishes the last 10-20% of the charging cycle).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Bronson
    Bronson Registered Users Posts: 17
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    BB. wrote: »
    Just to be clear... Amps is a rate (miles per hour).

    Amps*Hours is an amount (miles driven).

    If you used 28 Amp*Hours in two days, and only returned 9 Amp*Hour over that time, you are "down" at least 19 Amp*Hours.

    Do you have alternative recharging resources (grid, generator, etc.), or can you stop using so much power during bad weather?

    What is the battery voltage during recharging? >13.6 volts is beginning to slowly recharge... ~14.5 volts is recharging the battery quickly, or nearing the end of the charging cycle (if it stays at ~14.5 volts for 2-6 hours--current tapers down towards zero as the battery finishes the last 10-20% of the charging cycle).

    -Bill

    Hi

    To be clear,

    I only use 28 Amps in two days, 14 Amps each day and that is NOT much at all. I'm only using lights and it's on a Motion Sensor thingy. When all my lights on (16 LEDS) it's only about 5.5 Amps*Hours, but NOT all lights are on at the same time(All on for Testing Only) and that's why I only used about 14 Amps per night.

    My 2 Panels are Rated @ 120W each, 7.05 AMPS, 17V (These are Peaked Hours)

    It's Raining / Cloudy today, I will do another check tomorrow and see...

    This is why I post the Help up, this is not normal at all...

    Although I'm NEW to this, but the Solar Panels suppost to Charge the Battery until Full... The funny thing is that when Early Morning I see it's charging correctly like it should. But when the SUN hits High (Noon Time) the Charging Controller Fluctuate on the Amps... Is that Normal?

    Thankx for your time and knowledge!

    :D
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    Bronson wrote: »
    Hi

    To be clear,

    I only use 28 Amps in two days, 14 Amps each day and that is NOT much at all.

    :D

    No, you don't.
    There is no such thing as using "28 Amps in two days" because as Bill has pointed out an Amp is a rate, not a quantity. An Amp hour (@ Voltage) is a quantity.
    I don't know what you're using to measure your power usage but if that's what it's telling you it's telling you nothing. Are you sure it's not Amp hours? Check the manual (it would need to be a good battery monitor with a shunt to do this).

    That aside, the problem is a matter of how much you use vs. how much you 'replace'; the replacement has to be greater in order to make up for the system losses.

    240 Watts of panel might produce 740 Watt hours in a good, sunny, 4 hour day. That would be with an MPPT type controller. With a PWM type you are at a loss because it will only pass the current of the panel: the 'extra' power from higher panel Voltage goes unrealized.
    The funny thing is that when Early Morning I see it's charging correctly like it should. But when the SUN hits High (Noon Time) the Charging Controller Fluctuate on the Amps... Is that Normal?

    Yes it is. Peak charge current occurs when batteries are at their lowest state of charge; at the beginning of charging. As their Voltage comes up the current to them will go down, regardless of the panels' output potential. So you have the paradox that when the panels are capable of their maximum power the batteries don't need it.

    Another issue that arises is that if the batteries are not charged quickly enough there isn't sufficient sun time in the day for them to remain in the Absorb stage until they are completely replenished. You will see Voltage come up to normal charging level, but it won't remain there until charging is actually complete because the panel output falls first. If this goes on for too long the batteries will become sulphated; their actual capacity is reduced because the plates are partially coated with sulphur from the electrolyte which insulates them against conductivity. The Voltage will appear normal, which misleads you into thinking they are charged.
  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    Bronson wrote: »
    Hi

    To be clear,

    I only use 28 Amps in two days, 14 Amps each day and that is NOT much at all. I'm only using lights and it's on a Motion Sensor thingy. When all my lights on (16 LEDS) it's only about 5.5 Amps*Hours, but NOT all lights are on at the same time(All on for Testing Only) and that's why I only used about 14 Amps per night.

    No, no, no. When you say you used 28 Amps in two days it's like saying you drove a distance of 70mph in two days. When you say with all your lights on they are using 5.5 Amp-hours it's like saying that when you are driving down the road your car is moving at a speed of 70 miles. It makes no sense. People keep trying to make this clear to you and you are apparently still not getting it.

    Amp-hours is a *quantity* of electrical current, Amps is a *rate* of electrical current.

    An explanation of the difference between amps and amp-hours, Watts and Watt-hours should be a sticky on this forum. It comes up pretty often.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    ggunn wrote: »
    An explanation of the difference between amps and amp-hours, Watts and Watt-hours should be a sticky on this forum. It comes up pretty often.

    It does come up a lot. Maybe it would help if our host fixed their Deep Cycle Battery FAQ:
    Batteries are not 100% efficient - some energy is lost as heat and chemical reactions when charging and discharging. If you use 1000 watts from a battery, it might take 1050 or 1250 watts or more to fully recharge it.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    vtMaps,

    I have forwarded your correction request to NAWS (think I did this before).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Bronson
    Bronson Registered Users Posts: 17
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    ggunn wrote: »
    No, no, no. When you say you used 28 Amps in two days it's like saying you drove a distance of 70mph in two days. When you say with all your lights on they are using 5.5 Amp-hours it's like saying that when you are driving down the road your car is moving at a speed of 70 miles. It makes no sense. People keep trying to make this clear to you and you are apparently still not getting it.

    Amp-hours is a *quantity* of electrical current, Amps is a *rate* of electrical current.

    An explanation of the difference between amps and amp-hours, Watts and Watt-hours should be a sticky on this forum. It comes up pretty often.

    My system is 12V

    Ohm's Law: Amps = Volts / Ohms
    Power Formula: Watts = Volts * Amps

    This should clear up my Math....

    12VDC X 28Amps = 336 Watts

    But like I said, my lights when on Full (Only for Testing) is at 5.5 Amps @ 12V

    Reguardless how you do your Math, it still 12VDC X 28Amps = 336 Watts .... Right?

    That's is what I used in two days TOTAL.

    What I am saying is that I only collect 9 Amps in Total for two days. At least that's what the Controller is telling me.... The setting on the Controller is 14.5V cut off. My Controller is LCD and it reports everything, like Collecting, Usage, Battery Voltage and so on...

    I don't really know what else to say or how do I typed for you guys to understand.

    :(
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    Bronson wrote: »
    My system is 12V

    Ohm's Law: Amps = Volts / Ohms
    Power Formula: Watts = Volts * Amps

    This should clear up my Math....

    12VDC X 28Amps = 336 Watts

    But like I said, my lights when on Full (Only for Testing) is at 5.5 Amps @ 12V

    Reguardless how you do your Math, it still 12VDC X 28Amps = 336 Watts .... Right?

    That's is what I used in two days TOTAL.

    What I am saying is that I only collect 9 Amps in Total for two days. At least that's what the Controller is telling me.... The setting on the Controller is 14.5V cut off. My Controller is LCD and it reports everything, like Collecting, Usage, Battery Voltage and so on...

    I don't really know what else to say or how do I typed for you guys to understand.

    :(

    Maybe you can try saying this:

    "I don't know whether my Controller is telling me the maximum Amps at any time since reset or is telling me the total number of Amp-hours since reset. "

    If it really is telling you 9 amp-hours, then that should be only 10% of the capacity of a 90 amp-hour battery, and you do have a problem based on what your Controller is telling you.

    12 volts times 28 amps is indeed 336 watts. But if you leave the lights on at a 28 amp rate for one hour, that is 28 amp-hours. If you leave them on for 3 hours it is 84 amp-hours and would be 1008 watt-hours.
    If your panels can really produce 7 amps at peak sun, and they are in parallel, not series, then they can give you 14 amps into the battery, and if they kept up that constant current you would accumulate 1008 watt-hours in about six hours of peak sun. You are not going to get six hours of peak sun per day, and you also will not be able to push current into the battery at the full 14 amp rate as it gets above ~80% charged.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • Bronson
    Bronson Registered Users Posts: 17
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    inetdog wrote: »
    Maybe you can try saying this:

    "I don't know whether my Controller is telling me the maximum Amps at any time since reset or is telling me the total number of Amp-hours since reset. "

    If it really is telling you 9 amp-hours, then that should be only 10% of the capacity of a 90 amp-hour battery, and you do have a problem based on what your Controller is telling you.

    12 volts times 28 amps is indeed 336 watts. But if you leave the lights on at a 28 amp rate for one hour, that is 28 amp-hours. If you leave them on for 3 hours it is 84 amp-hours and would be 1008 watt-hours.
    If your panels can really produce 7 amps at peak sun, and they are in parallel, not series, then they can give you 14 amps into the battery, and if they kept up that constant current you would accumulate 1008 watt-hours in about six hours of peak sun. You are not going to get six hours of peak sun per day, and you also will not be able to push current into the battery at the full 14 amp rate as it gets above ~80% charged.

    This is a Total of TWO DAYS = Only use 28 AMPS Total :( 14 AMPS Per Day ---- NOT 28 AMPS in an Hour

    For 250 Watts Panels, even at little Sun / Cloudy day, Wouldn't I get about 9 Amps in about 2 Hours? What happen to the rest? Also, this is two days.... Even at 2 Amps per Hour from the Panels, I should get about 10 Amps just 5 hours... If you give me just 5 Hours per day @ 2AMP-Hour, I would get about 20 Amps in Total for 2 Days.

    But I got only 9 Amps for TWO DAYS.... :(

    Something is WRONG :(
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    I'm glad the "fizzycist" mentioned the drop in the charge rate since your not drawing down the batteries more than the 80% SOC (I think we didn't get an AmpHour rating for your new batteries, or I missed it) The charge rate normally tapers off from the this point until the charge controller switches to 'float' mode.

    As a group we are likely unfamiliar with your charge controller. I wonder if it gives a running total of amp hours into the battery and your ending up with a net gain of 8-9 amps. It is disturbing that you aren't getting more amps in at any given point, so I ask the silly question, are the panels getting full sun? How close to the charge controller (CC) are they? how are they connected?

    Something you said early on "Now the Charger Controller is reporting that it's only taking about 2-3 AMPs and it I turn on all the Lights (About 8 AMPs) the AMPs on the Charge Controller would jumped to about 10 to 11AMPs. If I shut it Off, the Charger Controller would go back to about 2-3 AMPs again." This would appear to be somewhat 'normal' the CC is tapering off, being near full charge, and when you add loads it 'sees' the battery voltage dropping and it is allowing a higher amount of current. You turn off the loads and the battery appears full and will only take minimal charging current.

    Did you replace the battery with a 'true' deep cycle battery like a golf cart battery? We mention this as often people start out with a 'marine' battery that is a starting and trolling motor battery and a poor substitute that quickly dies. Sams club and Costco offer these at around $80each of 6v so you'll need 2.

    So I was in the office the other day and asked " how far is it to town, the cashier said it's about 25 minutes" and a customer said "it's more like 35 mintues" so I told them "I'd see you in 150 miles" and left....
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    Bronson wrote: »
    Something is WRONG :(

    Yes: your terminology to start with. It is doubtful that your equipment is giving you numbers of any use.

    Here we go again: AMP is a RATE, not a QUANTITY of power. In order to have a quantity from a rate you have to include the time factor: "Amp hour". Not Amps per hour either.
    One Amp drawn for one hour is one Amp hour. Two Amps drawn for 30 minutes is also one Amp hour. The absolute quantity of electricity includes the Voltage factor and is called a Watt hour. Your local utility sells in quantities kilowatt hours: 1,000 Watt hours.
    A statement that you used 'X' Amps yesterday is meaningless, although I've no doubt it's all the info you're being provided with by your equipment.

    Here's how the problem plays out:

    You use 200 Watt hours over night. During the day you have to "replace" those used Watt hours in the limited amount of time the sun shines. If this is 4 hours of equivalent good sun your panels need to produce 50 Watts on average for those 4 hours to come up with the 200 Watt hours used. (This does not include the power lost to system inefficiencies.)

    Here's the math:

    Volts * Amps * time = Watt hours.

    If you were to look at your "28 Amps in two days" as a function of this it would be 28 Amps / 48 hours or 0.58 Amp hours. At 12 Volts that's a little more than a 6 Watt continuous load for two days. That isn't likely.

    250 Watts of panels will produce an average of 192.5 Watts over the hours of good sun. If that is 2.72 hours then their total production for the day would be 523.6 Watt hours. If your daily consumption (in Watt hours) exceeds this then you have a deficit charging condition and your batteries will go dead sooner rather than later.

    Without the time factor included in quantifying the amount of electricity you can not discern what the problem is.
  • Bronson
    Bronson Registered Users Posts: 17
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    @ Photowhit

    Yup, you are the only 1 so far got what my problem is.... Thank you !!!

    You are Correct on this too :D

    " Something you said early on "Now the Charger Controller is reporting that it's only taking about 2-3 AMPs and it I turn on all the Lights (About 8 AMPs) the AMPs on the Charge Controller would jumped to about 10 to 11AMPs. If I shut it Off, the Charger Controller would go back to about 2-3 AMPs again." This would appear to be somewhat 'normal' the CC is tapering off, being near full charge, and when you add loads it 'sees' the battery voltage dropping and it is allowing a higher amount of current. You turn off the loads and the battery appears full and will only take minimal charging current."

    I got a Marine Deep Cycle Battery but NOT the Golf Cart 1
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    If you were to look at your "28 Amps in two days" as a function of this it would be 28 Amps / 48 hours or 0.58 Amp hours. At 12 Volts that's a little more than a 6 Watt continuous load for two days. That isn't likely.

    Without the time factor included in quantifying the amount of electricity you can not discern what the problem is.

    Hoo Boy! I hope that is just a typo on your part, Coot. Or maybe a brain fart?

    "28 amps in two days" is inherently meaningless. It would have to be 28 amp-hours. Then you divide by 48 hours to get .58 amp-hours per hour, or .58 amps average current, not .58 amp-hours or .58 amps/hour.
    (And the lovely term amps/hour which some people use is, of course, also generally meaningless. It is a technically possible unit, just not for this situation: If at noon the current was 10 amps and a 1pm the current was 15 amps, the current has increased at the rate of 5 amps/hour.)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    Bronson wrote: »
    Yup, you are the only 1 so far got what my problem is.... Thank you !!!

    Now that's really scary since I was just trying to figure out what the problem was...

    If the previous battery was damaged, perhaps sulfated badly, it would have diminished capacity and perhaps when a charge was applied it would quickly reach a point that the CC reduced the amount of current(amps) that it was sending to the battery.

    I had a very small system similar to yours using 2 golf cart batteries, and when for a bike ride for 3 months and came back to find I had left my inverter on and had drawn down and killed the batteries. It was winter when I use very little energy and I was short on funds, and my friend had replaced 2 trolling motor batteries with 2 golf cart batteries in his bass boat, and gave me his less than a year old trolling motor battery. It lasted through the winter but that was about it... I used perhaps 120 watts, around 12 Amp hours (Ah) at the batteries per day with @200 watt array.

    The golf cart (GC) batteries had lasted 3 years, before I killed them. I replaced them with 4 GC batteries and used them for 5 years in an expanded system. So they are cost effective.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

    As close as I could come to making sense out of nonsense, inetdog. Amps alone, as you know, means nothing.

    Using a "marine deep cycle" battery is a waste of money too. It's probably toast by now.
    A couple of the basic golf cart batteries 250 Watts of panel ought to be able to charge around 7% peak current rate. They'd be good for up to 1kW hour per day or a bit more (110 Amp hours [50% DOD] * 12 Volts = 1320 Watt hours DC). Panels could deliver about 520 Watt hours AC on a 4 hour day, nearly the same as 25% discharge of the GC2's. The old formulas work the best.

    You get a terrible sense of déjà vu answering questions around here. :roll:
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.
    You get a terrible sense of déjà vu answering questions around here. :roll:

    I think I have heard that before..... :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.