More Surrette problems

mike95490 · January 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Maybe just bump up the absorb time in half hour steps.

Maybe limits loads one night so the batteries don't get pulled down, or run the genset in the evening to top them off.

How long are they in BULK, before switching to absorb?

Are other loads "fooling" the controller, and using the power it thinks is sending to the batteries ?

terrynew · January 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Good questions, Mike. Things were scary a few days ago, with the automatic generator starter kicking in FOUR times. The AGS is set to run from 48.0 to 57.6 V, and each time it only took about 45 minutes to climb that range in Bulk. The previous few weeks it had been 47.6 to 57.6, resulting in an hour-long run every cloudy day, which worked fine as long as I ensured there was at least one day a week with the sun or gen giving 3 hrs of absorb to reach Float. But everyone said 48 should be the minimum, so I changed it to "48.0 to 57.6" and got the wacky four-times-in-one-day charging; in other words, it would discharge (under low loads) from 57.6 to 48.0 in under 5 hours! So today I changed it to "47.6 to 58.8", also changing the absorb V to 58.8 like Jeff recs, hoping the extra charging would get it through a single cloudy day with one charge session. That's just a temporary setting until I can get the batteries to hold their charge better, e.g., somehow restoring their SGs so they're 1265 at the end of an absorb.

And yes, I do have a DC load that might be fooling the controller. I have a Sundanzer DC freezer hooked off the e-panel, using 0.36 kWh/day compared to the loads on the inverter, 2.6 kWh/day. I didn't think it would affect what either the sun or the gen sent to the batteries; I thought it would only affect the SOC figures on the inverter's BMK display. Can you tell me how this is affecting the system, please?

Good news, since I originally got ripped off into buying 16 batteries before I found out that my system could only handle 8, I’m able to take the offline 8 and one by one use a plug-in battery charger. A neighbour on the grid just charged the first one at 15 A for 36 hours, as recommended by Surrette for desulfating, and the cells went from 1240+1255+1250 to 1250+1265+1260, ten points up. The real test will be to see if it has recovered enough to hold its charge as it should, and that will require charging the other 7 similarly then putting them online.

I also decided to try another desulfating approach for the other half of my 16 batteries, the ones online. I followed Surrette’s recommendation for corrective equalization from their battery documentation on the web. They recommend as many hours of equalizing as needed until 1265 is reached, then 2-3 more hours after that. This is what Coot describes as ‘cooking the batteries’, so my apologies, Coot, for going with Surrette’s approach instead but it’s their warranty! Anyways, I got five hours of solar EQ on Saturday and then 3 more on Sunday. That still didn’t bring them all up to 1265, but it did get them up to an average of 1260, pretty good since they averaged 1240 right after their last EQ a month ago. That isn’t my 1265 goal, but should I keep trying, or perhaps try the 36-hr 15A slow charge on these ones too? Or just be happy with 1260? I look forward to the next few days to see if these eight hold their charge.
…Terry

BB. · January 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Check with a meter for voltage drops at various points in your DC harness (especially between the inverter and the battery bank) when the inverter is under heavy load (or heavy charging current). That voltage drop can make your 48 VDC too high of trip point (a 1 volt drop in your harness to your inverter would mean your battery trip point is set to 49 volts under load).

The under 48 VDC is really a good rule of thumb for a resting battery... Under load (especially if you have relatively heavy loads) might be under 46 volts for 15 minutes or something similar.

You could also discharge your bank to 75% or 50% of state of charge, then run your "heavy" loads for 15 minutes and monitor the battery bank (and inverter) voltage--And use that as your set point.

Using a Battery Monitor with a programmable output (some Xantrex and Victron models) where it estimates battery capacity based on Amps*Hours in/out of battery bank with fudge factors, is better than a pure voltage set-point which has too many variables to make it anything more than a "last resort" type trigger (in my humble opinion).

Regarding your battery final specific gravity reading... If under charge/equalize, you see bubbling and you don't see the SG rising after 30-60 minutes of "equalizing"--then that will be your "new" maximum SG reading for that cell.

-Bill

vtmaps · January 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

terrynew wrote: »

They recommend as many hours of equalizing as needed until 1265 is reached, then 2-3 more hours after that. This is what Coot describes as ‘cooking the batteries’

BB. wrote:

you see bubbling and you don't see the SG rising after 30-60 minutes of "equalizing"--then that will be your "new" maximum SG reading for that cell

I believe that many hours of bubbling can change the SG by driving off water, thus concentrating the electrolyte. But I don't have a feel for how much water must be driven off in order to change the SG (or how long it would take to drive off that much water). I am curious to know what the fluid level was in the Surrettes after the cooking. It would be nice to replace the water after the cooking and then see an increase in SG.
--vtMaps

waynefromnscanada · January 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Over charging a flooded lead/acid battery with the idea of "driving off water", thus concentrating the electrolyte, is definitely NOT the right way to get the SG up where it belongs.

Ralph Day · January 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Also, don't take an SG reading just after adding water, it will be artificially low (the acid you sample will be diluted near the top of the battery). Add water before or 1/2 way through an eq (best before). I usually add water at mid month and make sure there's good charge after doing so, either a sunny day, gen charge or utility charge, and don't take an SG reading until after that charge or at least 24 hours after water addition.

Getting the SG reading you want by nefarious means (overcharging to remove water, leaving bubbles on your hydrometer float

) doesn't do you any favours, you're just kidding yourself about your true SOC. I used to take electrolyte samples until it read what I wanted it to...i would leave the bubbles stuck on the float causing it to float higher in the tube...higher SG reading. Duh. Not any more.

Ralph

jtdiesel65 · January 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

terrynew wrote: »

Or just be happy with 1260?

I personally wouldn't get too worried about 1260 vs 1265. There's too many ways to introduce error into the readings and your hydrometer might even have a tolerance.

You might try adjusting eq v up a bit. I used to have some surrette batterys that were in pretty bad state from chronic undercharging. I spent about a month eq-ing every chance I got. They used quite a bit of water, but the aggressive eq did help.

terrynew · January 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Thanks, guys, for your tips and suggestions. The funny thing is that, although I saw lots of bubbling going on throughout the equalization, I did *not* have to top up most of the cells with water, either halfway or at the end. The cells were all 1/4" to 1/2" below the bottom of the well to start with (mostly at the 1/2" point), and after the 8 hours of equalizing only one or two of the 24 cells dropped by more than 1/4" and had to be refilled. I can definitely smell, hear, and see the bubbling, but I'm getting very little evaporation. I just have normal caps on, the ones that came with the new batteries. Any idea what's going on here?

By the way, I use a refractometer now rather than a hydrometer. I switched a few months ago after getting fed up with the bulb on the side and bubbles and inconsistent readings; I just never got the hang of the hydrometer, even though a local electrician used mine and says its fine.

Bill, my Magnum inverter does have a battery monitor kit that calculates and displays a State of Charge, and the Magnum automatic generator starter can be set to trigger whenever the SOC drops to a certain point (e.g., 50 or 75%). But isn't this SOC inaccurate due to my DC freezer being external to what the inverter sees? (The DC freezer uses 0.36 kWh/day compared to the loads on the inverter, 2.6 kWh/day.)

Thanks again, everyone.
...Terry

BB. · January 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

I wonder if you can put the DC freezer on the "other side" of the DC shunt for your inverter (if it has one)?

Also, I would not expect water levels to drop dramatically from 1 day of "hard charging"... It would take a week or more to really change the water levels dramatically (I would have guessed).

-Bill

Ralph Day · January 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

When eq charging the electrolyte will warm up, sometimes a lot. With warming comes expansion of the liquid. If you're overfilled then you can have electrolyte ejected/splashed out the filler neck of the cell. So, if you look at the fluid level just after or during a long eq charge, it will have expanded and look completely full, wait until it cools down (a day or so) to see it's true level.

I have a refractometer too. It works fine, but reads higher than the bulb type. Did you check them side by side to see if the refract reads the same as the bulb? For me, I would have been undercharging if I went by the refracat. That problem can be overcome by zeroing the refract with acid you know is 1.265 (stored in a glass jar) instead of distilled water.

Smell hear and see? My wife can smell acid fumes if I eq for 15 minutes! Even a full absorb charge she can smell the fumes (if I've been in and out of the battery box checking SG many times) And that box is constantly vented...especially when I open it up hmmm.

Ralph

waynefromnscanada · January 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Had an interesting conversation today with my local Nova Scotia off grid retailer. He's telling me that they too, have been having problems with Surrettes, including several L-16's in their own off grid system, already toast at just 3 years old, and hearing of so many problems, that they no longer want to sell Surrettes, so are looking to other suppliers!
WOW! Sounds like Surrette has screwed themselves. Very sad. The once highly respected Surrette/Rolls Battery, once among the best in the world, is fast coming to be seen as junk. I find it very sad, especially as this is a local Nova Scotia company. Leaves me with a heavy heart indeed. Why are they doing this to themselves?

niel · January 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

i agree with you wayne that it is sad. i looked back at the date this thread was started and was shocked that it was started in 2008 and i know there was another one like it before this one. figuring they had 5yrs to straighten out whatever the problem is is indeed a very bad sign. it almost sounds like what many other companies did before their demise literally and/or figuratively. will we see them hurry to sell off the business to turn a quick final profit too rather than turn out a good product with good customer confidence and relations again? it's a shame that we are getting fewer choices.

terrynew · February 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Hey guys, we haven't nailed down the problem here yet so it's a bit early to conclude it's Surrette's fault. They've treated me well with a replacement of all 16 batteries so they're supporting me and trying to figure this out. Of course it's super frazzling for me, but I can't yet be sure there isn't some undetermined problem with the CC or inverter affecting things. And it wasn't Surrette's fault that my installer didn't know his stuff and gave me two strings of 8 six-volt batteries, thus cutting the current below the minimum recommended by Surrette.

Update: the 8 batteries that got 8 hrs of solar equalizing Jan 15th had cells averaging 1255, with a low of 1240 and high of 1265. Two weeks later, after the last of several absorb-charging days that reached float, the 1240 one was now 1230 and a 1260 one was now 1245. Yuck, I had hoped they'd hold up better than that. I'll do an eq in two more weeks and see how they fare. I've also been able to take the other 8 batteries over to a friend's house on the grid, and he has charged each battery at 15 A for 24-36 hours, getting them all up to 1265-1270 and hopefully desulfating them. After my eq in two weeks I'll switch over to those batteries and see how they hold up over a month. Tick tick tick....

65DegN · February 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

"...My wife can smell acid fumes if I eq for 15 minutes! Even a full absorb charge she can smell the fumes (if I've been in and out of the battery box checking SG many times) And that box is constantly vented...especially when I open it up hmmm..."

Ralph, Before my battery box on the first floor was finished and sealed our Cocateil keeled over a couple times and hit the floor from the hydrogen gas. And he was on the second floor. Fortunately when he fell it put him outside the plume of gasses near the ceiling and he recovered immediately.
When I saw that I doubled efforts to finish sealing the battery box.

65DegN · February 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

wayne, would that happen to be Newfound Energies?

waynefromnscanada · February 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

65DegN wrote: »

Before my battery box on the first floor was finished and sealed our Cocateil keeled over a couple times and hit the floor from the hydrogen gas. And he was on the second floor. Fortunately when he fell it put him outside the plume of gasses near the ceiling and he recovered immediately.
When I saw that I doubled efforts to finish sealing the battery box.

If you had enough hydrogen gas to displace enough oxygen to cause your bird to keel over, I'd have to say you're lucky you didn't have an explosion blow the roof off your house!

mike95490 · February 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Before my battery box on the first floor was finished and sealed our Cockatiel keeled over a couple times and hit the floor from the hydrogen gas.

No way. Hydrogen in small amounts is non-reactive to warmblooded life. If you get enough to displace the 21% o2 in the atmosphere, you have way bigger problems.

Ralph Day · February 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Definetely Mike,
I remember hearing that hydrogen will cause an explosion at 4% concentration. I used to have a H alarm, it was calibrated by my installer (checked in other words). It was supposed to go off at 1%, but was going off at 1/10 of 1%. Any time the absorb point was reached the alarm would sound. Replaced the unit, and the next one did much the same. It is now not in the mix.

The testing unit was a major piece of lab equipment,, the engineer used to work r+d with fuel cells and his buddies lent him the test unit.

I suspect the bird was a major diva...a little fainting and suddenly you're the centre of attention;) Or the acid fumes affected the bird before humans could detected them (except for my wife of course).

Ralph

waynefromnscanada · August 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Nothing posted here lately re Surrette batteries. Have they improved, or has everyone stopped using them?
I have to do some serious checking of my batteries and wiring tomorrow. Something has rather suddenly changed and even medium loads are dropping the voltage drastically, and the voltage pops right back when the load is removed. First thought is a resistance, either external, or internal to the battery pack. The L-16's are at least 10 years old, so they owe me nothing. 3 strings of two, for 12 volts. Beginning to wonder if I may have ruined them, sulfation due to unintentional deficit charging. The micro hydro holds the voltage mostly to 12.6 to 13 overnight, then come morning and the MX-60 wakes up on solar, it says "battery full" and goes to float right away.
If they are ruined, I'll be looking at replacing them with 2 volt versions of the L-16, and if Surrette has cleaned up their act, would like to go with them as they're in Nova Scotia already for transportation.
Anyone heard anything lately on Surrette? Any new Surrette owners?
Thanks
Wayne
Update: Found cause of drastic voltage drop problems - - - bad negative connection going to the in house volt meter. Batteries were not cooked after all, although I believe they are starting to show their age to some degree, which is to be expected after 10 years. Might just get another year out of them yet. All SGs are up good as usual. I've been very, very lucky with these batteries - - never ever expected to have them last this long. Add water on average once every 3 months, been doing that for years, no change. Could probably make it 4 months with no problem, but why take chances on exposing the plates to air. Who knows, they could fail tomorrow, but even if they do, they would still be one of the major success stories of my life and any future batteries will have big shoes to fill!

Volvo Farmer · August 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

I got about six years out of my S530s. Now maybe I murdered them, with only 1300W of panels on a 800ahr bank, but we were very rarely over 120Ahr out of them before recharging. I got them pretty hot on a number of occasions trying to equalize them too. At the end, I had two different cells fail to charge within a three month period, SG dropped to 1100 and no amount of corrective equalization would bring them back.

Just installed the new bank today, and went HuP Solar one this time. If I had gotten ten years out of my Surrettes, I might have gone back. The thing that bugged me the most was that the pro rated warranty is almost worthless in the last two years, and since mixing old and new batteries is not generally recommended, one bad cell out of 24 is worth about $50 in credit, but the whole bank is ruined.

waynefromnscanada · August 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Volvo Farmer wrote: »

I got about six years out of my S530s. Now maybe I murdered them, with only 1300W of panels on a 800ahr bank, but we were very rarely over 120Ahr out of them before recharging. I got them pretty hot on a number of occasions trying to equalize them too. At the end, I had two different cells fail to charge within a three month period, SG dropped to 1100 and no amount of corrective equalization would bring them back.

Just installed the new bank today, and went HuP Solar one this time. If I had gotten ten years out of my Surrettes, I might have gone back. The thing that bugged me the most was that the pro rated warranty is almost worthless in the last two years, and since mixing old and new batteries is not generally recommended, one bad cell out of 24 is worth about $50 in credit, but the whole bank is ruined.

Well I wouldn't be happy with that, after getting 10 years on the ones I have. "East Pen, Power Battery"

SolaRevolution · August 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

Nothing posted here lately re Surrette batteries. Have they improved, or has everyone stopped using them?

Still hearing of failures in the field of systems from the last couple of years. Mostly in the L-16 sizes. (S530, S600)
I've got to do some check-ups on some which were replaced by my distributor last year. I'll post my findings.

Even if they do get back on track I don't think I could recommend them unless they improve their cases. I recently changed out ( 8 ) S530s that were 7 years old. The failure was not unreasonable given the circumstances but 4 of the cases were leaking. They were bulging, but still, there was 3 inches of electrolyte in the catch tray. I had to tip them on their sides in a plastic mixing trough and hot-glue the cracks in the corners midway up the cases, then collect what had spilled from the caps in the minutes while I cleaned, dried, sanded then waited for the glue to harden.

This is not an uncommon shipping occurance (old or new) and it's why I originally started carying a hot-glue gun:

Attachment not found.

The blue lids of the L-16 sizes are the widest part of the battery. The edge of one will easily catch on the top of another while moving them around or even if you put a cinch strap around a few of them. If they made the lip of the red cases as wide or wider than the blue lids this probably would not happen so easily. Watch for brown stains on the shipping pallets and wetness in the factory plastic wrap. This is sulphuric acid. "Shipping damage" is not covered under the R/S warranty. This is easily "fixed" with hot glue and so far my clients have always preferred to keep the blemished battery over waiting for a replacement. I wonder if R/S would warranty such a battery if it later failed.:roll:

-Alex

BTW:
I know, I should have been wearing gloves.
I did have a bucket of baking soda-water which I immediately rinsed in. I had it on hand to clean up the bed of the trailer.:grr

waynefromnscanada · August 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

SolaRevolution wrote: »

Still hearing of failures in the field of systems from the last couple of years. Mostly in the L-16 sizes. (S530, S600)
I've got to do some check-ups on some which were replaced by my distributor last year. I'll post my findings.

Really, really appreciate you're report and any future updates. For me, it is the L-16 size, S530 that I have been considering once my present batteries fail, so sad to see that most of Surrette's problems seem to be with that size

Thanks again SolaRevolution. Greatly appreciated.
Wayne

SolaRevolution · August 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

Really, really appreciate you're report and any future updates. For me, it is the L-16 size, S530 that I have been considering once my present batteries fail, so sad to see that most of Surrette's problems seem to be with that size
Wayne

Caveat:

Let me add that the performance failures I have been seeing or hearing about are from batteries more than a year old. Recent failures are now second hand info. I have not installed any R/S L-16s (except for replacements) in the last year. It may be that they have the issue solved now. I don't know.

The only R/S batteries I have installed lately have been a set of CS25PS to parallel with a 2 year old existing system. I am monitoring them very closely and they seem to be doing fine so far.

Fingers are crossed.

-Alex

waynefromnscanada · August 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

SolaRevolution wrote: »

Caveat:

Let me add that the performance failures I have been seeing or hearing about are from batteries more than a year old. Recent failures are now second hand info. I have not installed any R/S L-16s (except for replacements) in the last year. It may be that they have the issue solved now. I don't know.

The only R/S batteries I have installed lately have been a set of CS25PS to parallel with a 2 year old existing system. I am monitoring them very closely and they seem to be doing fine so far.

Fingers are crossed.

-Alex

Great to hear Alex! We too will keep our fingers crossed.
Thanks again for you're helpful info.
Wayne

Vic · August 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

I have had no problems with my Surrette banks, BUT they date from 2005 (well that is a lie, have one lagging cell on a bank that was Floated a bit too long - my problem). There were problems caused by Rough shippping conditions from NS to CA, but that is another matter.

A member here, " terrynew " had some issues with Surrette. Believe that he had two sets of Surrette batteries replaced by Surrette under Warranty. Believe that he is on his third set, and still having problems getting them recharged.

From that single "data" point, seems to me that Surrette has bent over backwards to help Terry. I do not know what financial arrangements were required for Surrette to do the replacemants, but seems to me that S tried to be accommodating from what I read elsewhere.

The first post in this Thread is from Terry.
A distant neighbor recently bought 16 S S-530s (two strings 48 V), to replace Trojans. Will check in to see how those are doing as time permits. Vic

waynefromnscanada · August 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Thanks a lot Vic for that info and update. Much appreciated !

CDN_VT · August 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Great Thread
I'm doing my second battery purchase .Surrette problems will never be im my picture due to this thread .

VT

SolaRevolution wrote: »

Still hearing of failures in the field

terrynew · August 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Vic is right, Surrette has bent over backwards, and spent much of their money, trying to resolve my charging problems. They replaced my first sixteen S600s when their gravities went off my hydrometer scale above 1325; I shipped 3 back to them and they identified a faulty weld in one as the source. All I had to pay was the shipping.

The 2nd set of S600s slowly lost their gravities, from 1265 down to 1230/1240 even after recommended absorbing. One battery cell went down to 1100, and Surrette replaced it for free (except shipping). The replacement didn't fix the overall charging, despite corrective equalizations and lots of phone/email discussions and tests with Surrette's Tech Support. Not knowing what else to do, they agreed to replace all sixteen S600s with new S530s, believing that going from a 900 Ah bank to 800 Ah would give better charging. Again I just paid the shipping.

Maddingly, the S530s are in their 4th month and are dropping their gravities like the others did. This despite record summer sunshine, and getting 3 hrs absorbing at 59.2 V for 77 out of 90 days in their 1st 3 months.

So it seems likely I don't have a battery problem, but a sizing problem or a charging problem. Please don't dis Surrette based on my troubles without knowing the cause of my troubles yet. Surrette deserves credit for their proven warranty support and for not giving up on me.

As for my charging troubles, I'm going to try doubling my absorb time to see if that gets the gravities back up, but I also need help investigating whether there's a setting in my CC (an Outback FM80) that might be reducing charging. You can get more details at my discussion in Outback's forum, http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6437&p=37953#p37953 .

Thanks,
...Terry

Blackcherry04 · August 2012

Re: More Surrette problems

Do you guys really think that Surrette doesn't tear apart a returned battery that has failed to see what the issues are ?? Thats the first thing a Manufacturer does is try to determine the cause for failure. There only 4-5 things that would cause a battery to fail. Once they pull the plates they can tell exactly what the problem is. If it's something they are doing wrong they would correct it immediately. It's not like their first year building batteries, they have been doing it for 60 years.

More Surrette problems

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