Lost Bigtime Battery Studies

<snip>

A good reference for charging L-16 batteries is a Sandia National Labs report (year 2000) titled

“PV Hybrid Battery Tests on L-16 Batteries.”

Website: www.sandia.gov/pv.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................

That info above came from the Legendary Morningstar Corporation.

Page 51, 9.3 (L-16 Cells). TriStar Installation and Operation Manual.

How could a Government and Industry funded Study about 4 Brands of L-16 Batteries

just disappear off the face of the earth? One source saw it and says basically it was a landmark study.

Supposedly they talked about how to get twice as many Cycles (compared to average) among other things.


http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/su...nual.04.EN.pdf



Batteries and PV Systems

By: Don Loweburg


http://www.advancedpowerproducts.com/batteriesandpv.php

http://homepower.com/view/?file=HP89_pg120_IPP


<Snip>

June 2007 Response to a Blog.

By: Bill Kaszeta

Photovoltaic Resources Int’l Tempe Arizona USA

Response:

These charge 12 Trojan L6 batteries via a Trace C40 charge controller. (Wired in a 24V configuration)

I assume you have L-16 batteries. You should be aware of the following. Sandia National Laboratories published the following interesting
document on charging a flooded lead-acid battery for use in PV systems. Author(s) Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM Hund, Thomas D. Title Quarterly highlights of Sandia’s photovoltaics program : PV hybrid
battery tests on L-16 batteries. Volume 4, 2000. Report Number SAND2001-3521P
Classification Unclassified Unlimited Release Imprint October 2001. Description 8 p. Notes
<snip>

<snip> However when I try to link to the above electronic version, I find that a username and password are required even though the classification

is "Unclassified Unlimited Release".

Perhaps if enough people request the document they will make it available on-line. The printed report says that copies can be requested from

With difficulty (the front page is in red and has a red watermark) I have scanned the summary:

Summary While the L- 16 is a very good candidate for use in PV Systems, results of the PV Hybrid Test Procedure indicate several ways that
the L- 16′s performance can be enhanced. The first set of test results were obtained with 12 volt batteries (that is, two L16′s in series).
The puipose of this test procedure was to characterize charging profiles in a generic PY hybrid cycle. Results show that the L-1 6 battery can
quickly lose as much as 48% of its initial available capacity if the regulation voltage is too low, the time at regulation is too short, and the time
between the finish-charges is too long.

The data in this report suggest the following:

(1) L-16 regulation voltage in PV hybrids should be well above 2.40 vpc (14.40 volts) and may need
to be as high as 2.55 vpc or higher (15.3 volts for a 12 volt battery) depending on how the battery is charged.

(2) L-16 finish-charge time in PV hybrids should be at least 3 hours and may need to be longer depending on the time between finish-charges.

(3) The maximum interval between L-16 finish-charges should be about one week. (

4) Results vary significantly for different manufacturers.

The 12-volt testing was followed by 48-volt battery string tests that demonstrate how weak or low capacity cells will function within the
24-ce11 string. Further, results show the need for proper charge control and regular inspections.
This test identified a low capacity cell that was forced into reversal on discharge.
A cell in reversal wlll eventually be damaged and require replacement Additionally, the 48-volt battery string test provides information on
how specific gravity measurements, monoblock (a monoblock is the smallest packaged battery size – three cells or six volts in the case
of an L-16 battery) voltages, can he used to track battery health. Implementation of these procedures can help ensure that the L-16 will
achieve its maximum cycle-life and thus minimum life-cycle cost. ========== end of scan ==========

Anyone using L-16 batteries in PV or hybrid systems should read this report. Hopefully, it will be available on the web.

Other suggestions:

1. If you can, measure the short circuit current and open circuit voltage of each series string of 2 modules. Look for differences.

2. Look for loose connections in the junction boxes.

3. Has anything grown and shadowed the array? Even a small part of the modules?

Bill Kaszeta Photovoltaic Resources Int’l Tempe Arizona USA


As of 2011, ten to eleven years after the fact - these 4 references above were about the end of the line - on the Internet.

Concorde told me that they heard of the studies but who knows what happened to them.
They did some studies that had a similar outcome.

A few conversations with the brass at the Legendary ODYSSEY® Batteries Division of EnerSys Energy Products Inc.
and I heard a similar story but got a lot more details on THEIR latest AGM studies.
Naturally the numbers were a bit different but the principals for longer life cycles were very similar.

There were also other references to other 'Longer Life' Lead Acid Battery studies on the Internet.

This is the end of Part One. Next we will fast forward to this years developments.

Without information like this (and more) it would have been impossible to have formulated

'The Ni-Fe Theory of Battery-tivity' :-)


Bill Blake

Comments

  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies

    Times and batteries change...

    Here's a Sandia Lab doc from about the same period speaking of Trojan recomending equalizing every some many cycles, not their current recomendation.

    http://www.zetatalk3.com/docs/Batteries/Lead_Acid/Capacity_Loss_in_PV_Batteries_and_Recovery_Procedures_1998.pdf

    Is this the doc your looking for? SAND2001-3521P;

    http://infoserve.sandia.gov/sand_doc/2001/013521p.pdf
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies
    Photowhit wrote: »
    Times and batteries change...

    Here's a Sandia Lab doc from about the same period speaking of Trojan recomending equalizing every some many cycles, not their current recomendation.

    http://www.zetatalk3.com/docs/Batteries/Lead_Acid/Capacity_Loss_in_PV_Batteries_and_Recovery_Procedures_1998.pdf

    Is this the doc your looking for? SAND2001-3521P;

    http://infoserve.sandia.gov/sand_doc/2001/013521p.pdf

    Yes they finally released that L-16 Study after over a Decade, I held back the link from Part one to show that even TODAY

    it's not easy to find that Study by Title using a search engine as Bill Kaszeta pointed out back in 2007.

    This is unusual.



    http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AkTj4KMD1yCW8yI3zXeJ8.WbvZx4?p=%E2%80%9CPV+Hybrid+Battery+Tests+on+L-16+Batteries.%E2%80%9D+&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701


    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=44&gs_id=2&xhr=t&q=%E2%80%9CPV+Hybrid+Battery+Tests+on+L-16+Batteries.%E2%80%9D&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=%E2%80%9CPV+Hybrid+Battery+Tests+on+L-16+Batteries.%E2%80%9D&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=81a43317402f6146&biw=1280&bih=643


    I don't quite understand what Trojan equalization has to do with what they say here that impresses experts so.

    This is the link from 2007 that is Now Finally Unlocked

    http://prod.sandia.gov/techlib/access-control.cgi/2001/013521p.pdf

    Thanks to Bill Kaszeta.

    http://www.solar-photovoltaic.info/pv/need-help-troubleshooting-and-fixing-a-possible-problem/

    See the last response down at the bottom.

    12th line down.

    For YEARS people have been looking for that L-16 Report.


    Bill Blake
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies

    i have moved the thread here and was torn on whether to put it into the product review and opinion area or not. seeing the independent testing by sandia was involved i consider it more factual and i admit that i haven't read it all as of yet and i look forward to doing so.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies
    BillBlake wrote: »
    Yes they finally released that L-16 Study after over a Decade, I held back the link from Part one to show that even TODAY it's not easy to find that Study

    I'm OK at searches, but took <5 minutes...
    BillBlake wrote: »
    I don't quite understand what Trojan equalization has to do with what they say here that impresses experts so.

    Just that at this point things have changed. I don't think there was a great effort to hide anything. More likely it was posted with manufacterers names which could be illegal in some nations and had to have permission from them, or be rewritten...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies

    Doubt that Bill Kaszeta and the others at Solar Photovoltaic were sitting under the dum dum tree when they tried in vain to find
    "The Lost Bigtime Battery Studies". Your right as far as there not seeming to be anything earth shaking about the
    L-16 Report but it is very good.

    Since it Never was classified and was originally designed for Universities worldwide I gave it up to
    Changhong and they say that they are impressed with it. Naturally I want something out of them.
    They know how it works.

    I try to keep a sense of humor about most things including hobbies.
    Rarely has there been a situation where Google backs up a persons story like this.

    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&gs_mss=%22PV%20Hybrid%20Batter%20Tests%20on%20L-16%20Batteries%22&pq=%22pv%20hybrid%20tests%20on%20l-16%20batteries%22&cp=18&gs_id=ad&xhr=t&q=%22PV%20Hybrid%20Battery%20Tests%20on%20L-16%20Batteries%22&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=%22PV+Hybrid+Battery+Tests+on+L-16+Batteries%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=81a43317402f6146&biw=1280&bih=643


    It's too much.
    They put this Post at Wind-Sun.com right at the very Top of their list.

    Then proceed to Throw the first (and only other) Solar Forum I ever had any experience with
    off the List like a drunk that ran out of money and got too mouthy.

    They STILL list exactly and ONLY the links that I said were available as of my Bigtime Post in Sept. 2011.
    This for Page One of a standard search.

    Never saw anything like it - all within hours of the Wind-Sun Forum Post going up on the Board.

    This place must carry some heavy weight :-) Must be in the Legendary category ;-)
    That or Google must think that your Super Moderator is "on time".


    Bill Blake
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies

    hey, we rate!8)

    not sure of the other post you refer to though. you should also be glad you rated with this thread for me to place it in the forum category i did. it puts you at the top of google.:D
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies

    One of the other forums has a SunKing/God, actually I think he's on a couple of the others now having practically shut down one that I been frequenting...

    ...but we truely have Super Moderators!!!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies
    Photowhit wrote: »
    One of the other forums has a SunKing/God, actually I think he's on a couple of the others now having practically shut down one that I been frequenting...

    ...but we truly have Super Moderators!!!

    We are a fast, sound bite oriented, society.

    Some subjects are so intense that it takes reading the same material
    a number of times to really get a lot of it.
    Went to bed early but woke up. Said to myself let's Re-read some old first hand Ni-Fe accounts again.
    I had taken a 6 month (or so) break from it and dived back in for an update several weeks ago.

    One firsthand account was from a guy that bought (20) 600 Ah Ni-Fe Cells in 2011.

    Another fellow has A NUMBER of relatives (with farms) with Original Edison Ni-Fe Cells in his native Country.
    They have schemed and devised ELABORATE, TIME CONSUMING and EXPENSIVE Methods to REALLY Squeeze
    all kinds of Decades out of the poor Batteries.
    It's EXTREMELY heavy duty stuff - IF someone has the interest.

    Both Posters are top notch with long, reputable reputations.

    Wound up saying to myself this WHOLE STORY is the stuff of a thick Book - not some Forum.
    But who would want it?

    The Forum that I think Photowhit refers to has no patience for Ni-Fe. They ran (or allowed) any real experts or potential experts
    to get run out of there on a rail. Perhaps one of the moderators got smacked around too much as a kid.

    A fellow I consider North America's greatest Ni-Fe expert would probably never tell them a single sentence in a million years
    due to the attitude.

    It's nice that there is other Battery Technology to discuss.
    Straight Ni-Fe is really too much and needs a lot of interest and feedback to run very much of it on people.

    Worked up another Lead Acid Post (this evening) that may be a Big Winner :-)
    However I'll give this post (Bigtime) a little time to breathe first.


    Bill Blake
  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies
    BillBlake wrote: »
    Yes they finally released that L-16 Study after over a Decade, I held back the link from
    Part one to show that even TODAY

    it's not easy to find that Study by Title using a search engine as Bill Kaszeta pointed out back in 2007.

    This is unusual.



    http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AkTj4KMD1yCW8yI3zXeJ8.WbvZx4?p=%E2%80%9CPV+Hybrid+Battery+Tests+on+L-16+Batteries.%E2%80%9D+&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701


    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=44&gs_id=2&xhr=t&q=%E2%80%9CPV+Hybrid+Battery+Tests+on+L-16+Batteries.%E2%80%9D&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=%E2%80%9CPV+Hybrid+Battery+Tests+on+L-16+Batteries.%E2%80%9D&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=81a43317402f6146&biw=1280&bih=643


    I don't quite understand what Trojan equalization has to do with what they say here that impresses experts so.

    This is the link from 2007 that is Now Finally Unlocked

    http://prod.sandia.gov/techlib/access-control.cgi/2001/013521p.pdf

    Thanks to Bill Kaszeta.

    http://www.solar-photovoltaic.info/pv/need-help-troubleshooting-and-fixing-a-possible-problem/

    See the last response down at the bottom.

    12th line down.

    For YEARS people have been looking for that L-16 Report.


    Bill Blake

    It's all disappearing again. Sandia National Labs takes a password now.
    The Home Power link dried up. The Bill Kaszeta write-up seems to be gone.
    Even Google pulled out on me.
    Must be a conspiracy like Nickel Iron is. :D

    Lucky for us that several of you (like neil) made copies of the Report to your hard drive
    while the pickins were good. :-)

    Bill Blake
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies
    Photowhit wrote: »

    Is this the doc your looking for? SAND2001-3521P;

    http://infoserve.sandia.gov/sand_doc/2001/013521p.pdf

    That is the link which requires a Sandia (or general Gov?) username and password! Anybody have a public link to the same document?

    The following search on the www.sandia.gov site returns 271 matches, some of which look interesting:
    http://www.sandia.gov/search/index.html?q=solar+pv+batteries&x=0&y=0
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies
    BillBlake wrote: »
    It's all disappearing again. Sandia National Labs takes a password now.
    The Home Power link dried up. The Bill Kaszeta write-up seems to be gone.
    Even Google pulled out on me.
    Must be a conspiracy like Nickel Iron is. :D

    Lucky for us that several of you (like neil) made copies of the Report to your hard drive
    while the pickins were good. :-)

    Bill Blake

    sorry as i guess i was caught napping along with everybody else.
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies
    niel wrote: »
    sorry as i guess i was caught napping along with everybody else.

    Some current links from a search of "solar batteries PV L16" (nine results):

    http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/docs/PDF/hund_prm.pdf (2 pages) and http://prod.sandia.gov/techlib/access-control.cgi/1999/990936.pdf (with cost comparisons of different battery types.)

    The report which you are looking for may actually still be on the Sandia site somewhere, but with a "no-robots" directive which keeps Google and other outside search engines from indexing it.
    Or it may have become restricted.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies
    inetdog wrote: »
    Some current links from a search of "solar batteries PV L16" (nine results):

    http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/docs/PDF/hund_prm.pdf (2 pages) and http://prod.sandia.gov/techlib/access-control.cgi/1999/990936.pdf (with cost comparisons of different battery types.)

    The report which you are looking for may actually still be on the Sandia site somewhere, but with a "no-robots" directive which keeps Google and other outside search engines from indexing it.
    Or it may have become restricted.

    We all mostly agreed that it was good information but nothing Life threatening to the Interests of the USA
    so I gave it to China. They liked it.
    The Chinese and American Colleges work with each other on things a lot more sensitive (like portable nuclear reactors)
    so I doubt sharing Internet published library work about storage batteries is going to worry anyone.
    China tells us plenty about batteries as well. It's a world wide affair.

    I kept a copy of the Lost Bigtime Battery Studies and can put the 8 pages up for the Group if there is ever any interest.

    Bill Blake
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies
    BillBlake wrote: »
    We all mostly agreed that it was good information but nothing Life threatening to the Interests of the USA
    so I gave it to China. They liked it.

    The Chinese and American Colleges work with each other on things a lot more sensitive (like portable nuclear reactors)
    so I doubt sharing Internet published library work about storage batteries is going to worry anyone.

    Bill Blake

    I was thinking more of "restricted" because of commercial pressure via a lobbyist than because of legitimate (or otherwise) security interests!
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Lost Bigtime Battery Studies

    The Advanced Power write-up still survives though it's missing a whole lot of the full report.
    Concorde and Odyssey did in house studies and came to similar conclusions.
    Naturally with slightly different numbers for AGM. For instance Odyssey went from liking 13.3 or 13.4
    up to 13.6 or 13.7 Volts in Float mode.
    The head of the battery charger division told me the new charging package could double Life Cycles.
    Sounds a tad high. Who knows!
    Another huge report was done by Government and Industry (together) that had people making huge claims
    all over Internet Town but it seemed to disappear as well.
    'Lost Bigtime' was off the face of the Internet for a good 11 years after Morningside Corporation (US Gov. favorite)
    Dropped The Dime.
    Now it's gone again after a 'Little Taste'.

    In our case it's what changes that people can make to harness the good, 'Whatever it is', more so than getting
    hung up in the essence of various findings.

    The 'Blivet Solar Charging Method' where people try to squeeze 8 hours worth of charge into a 4 hour bag
    has caused all kinds of problems.
    As many reports talk about it's not just Amps and Voltage but charge time and Charge Management.

    At times,
    'Battery Charge Rejection Syndrome' essentially shutting down (stomping) up to 50% (or so) of the
    Mighty Solar Panels Power, in all their Glory, is also what old Bill is talkin bout.

    If we do hit on something good as the price of batteries and generator fuel continues to spiral higher and higher
    a person would have to ask demselves. Was it because we were that smart or that they were that dumb. :roll:

    http://www.advancedpowerproducts.com/batteriesandpv.php

    Bill Blake