Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

Ismail Khan
Ismail Khan Registered Users Posts: 9
Hi,
I am building a small fountain, six feet in diamter and about eighteen inches high. I need solar system to keep one horse power submersible water pump and four Led lights. There is plenty of sunlight available there. I would want the fountain to run after sunset too. Can anybody advise on how to go about it? Solar panel, battery, inverters etc???

Comments

  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    Hi Ismail, welcome to the form. Re you're proposed project, the LED lights are not a problem, but if you intend to run a 1 HP pump 24/7, you're first step should be to have a talk with you're bank manager.
  • Ismail Khan
    Ismail Khan Registered Users Posts: 9
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    Thanks. Translate that into money, what does this mean?? the fountain is six feet in diamter and only eighteen inches high and sometimes I think half horsepower pmp would be enough for it but not sure.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    A 1 hp pump is about enough to run a good sized fire hose... You have very little "head" (back pressure from lifting water), so the power required to move the water is pretty low--Unless you are trying to shoot water many meters into the air or other water feature that needs a lot of water and high back pressure.

    Also, it sounds like you want to run the fountain at night... What you really need is to design the minimum size/most efficient pump/pumping system, then measure the amount of Watts used. And tell us how many hours a day the system will need to run.

    Will this be a "permanent" or temporary fountain (i.e., use inexpensive pump for 3 months, or you want this to run for years into the future).

    Will this need to be automated (timer, battery protection during bad weather, etc.). Do you need AC or DC pump motor, etc...

    You have several choices:
    • "cheap pump" + solar panels (only pumps when sun is up)
    • cheap pump + 2-4x more solar panels + charge controller + timer (pumps at night, system may last 3-6 months)
    • expensive pump + some more solar panels + charge controller + timer + battery monitor + AC inverter (last for several years before needing battery replacement)

    Anything more than #1 is going to cost $1,000's of USD for pump+electrical package. #1 can be done for less than $1,000 USD (or even much less).

    -Bill

    PS: In the US, utility power costs around $0.10 to $0.30 per kWH... For Off Grid battery based power (reliable) you are looking at $1 to $2+ per kWH (10x as expensive as utility power--assuming year battery life, 10+ years for electronics, and 5-8 years for battery bank). You need to have a system that uses "very little" power to operate--Conservation will really save you a lot of money.

    And pumps can be very expensive too... Simple/cheap "brushed motors" will run for 3-6 months or so before needing brush replacement. Electronically commutated DC motors and AC pump motors can easily last many years, but will cost 10x that of a "cheap" fountain pump/boat bilge pump.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Ismail Khan
    Ismail Khan Registered Users Posts: 9
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    Thank you BB and thank you Bill. I got one made-in-China solar fountain through a friend from the U.S. Cost me $ 137. But the pressure is too low and the water shoots no more than two ft. The one I am building right now is a permanent feature, between the living room and the bed room. There is a central hose, surrounded by several nosels and this would require some pressure that, I was told, could done through a one horse power pump. I am not a technical person, therefore, I am not sure if this is correct. I want the fountain to run on solar through the day, since there is plenty of sunshine here and switches to the battery mode that should gives at least for five to six hours back up. BB, when u say anything #1 can be done for $ 1000 or much less, does that mean one horse power. I am good with it, provided it works for several years? Can u tell me how many panels and what other equipment would I need? Excuse my ignorance but I am total novice to this field.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    You need to sort out the pump question first. How much flow/pressure/height do you want out of it? Frankly a 1 HP pump can move a lot of water very high under a great deal of pressure. My guess is you're looking for a lower volume/higher pressure type of pump. That would mean the need for a positive displacement type. Even something like a Shurflo could do it, but they are not designed for continuous use.

    I suggest visiting a retailer that sells such ornamental fountains and ask a lot of questions about the pumps used. Once you have determine what pump you need you will know its power requirements and can fulfill them.
  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain
    Thank you BB and thank you Bill. I got one made-in-China solar fountain through a friend from the U.S. Cost me $ 137. But the pressure is too low and the water shoots no more than two ft. The one I am building right now is a permanent feature, between the living room and the bed room. There is a central hose, surrounded by several nosels and this would require some pressure that, I was told, could done through a one horse power pump. I am not a technical person, therefore, I am not sure if this is correct. I want the fountain to run on solar through the day, since there is plenty of sunshine here and switches to the battery mode that should gives at least for five to six hours back up. BB, when u say anything #1 can be done for $ 1000 or much less, does that mean one horse power. I am good with it, provided it works for several years? Can u tell me how many panels and what other equipment would I need? Excuse my ignorance but I am total novice to this field.
    VERY roughly speaking: 1 hp = 746W. 1hp for 24 hr/day = 18kWh/day = 6535kWh/yr. Just to make that much energy from sunlight here in Austin would require about 5kW of PV; you'll have to check what it would take wherever you are. Then you'll need your lighting, batteries, inverter, etc.

    I'd say you'd be looking at several tens of thousands of dollars.
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain
    ggunn wrote: »
    VERY roughly speaking: 1 hp = 746W. 1hp for 24 hr/day = 18kWh/day = 6535kWh/yr. Just to make that much energy from sunlight here in Austin would require about 5kW of PV; you'll have to check what it would take wherever you are. Then you'll need your lighting, batteries, inverter, etc.

    I'd say you'd be looking at several tens of thousands of dollars.

    Agree, except we don't know if this "1 HP" is HP output on the motor shaft, or 1 HP power consumption. If it's a motor that outputs 1 HP, then depending on the efficiency of the motor, it would easily suck up 1000, or 1200 watts, which will require even more tens of thousands of dollars :(
    Something else to consider is in home moisture. Since this fountain will be running "between the living room and the bed room", it will add a huge moisture load to the inside air, leading to condensation and mold.
  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain
    Agree, except we don't know if this "1 HP" is HP output on the motor shaft, or 1 HP power consumption. If it's a motor that outputs 1 HP, then depending on the efficiency of the motor, it would easily suck up 1000, or 1200 watts, which will require even more tens of thousands of dollars :(
    Something else to consider is in home moisture. Since this fountain will be running "between the living room and the bed room", it will add a huge moisture load to the inside air, leading to condensation and mold.
    I missed that. The OP wants to run a 1hp fountain water pump indoors??? I hope they have life preservers in case the drain clogs up. :D
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain
    ggunn wrote: »
    I missed that. The OP wants to run a 1hp fountain water pump indoors??? I hope they have life preservers in case the drain clogs up. :D

    Between the living room and the bedroom does not necessarily mean inside. It could be in a courtyard or atrium faced by windows in both living room and bedroom.
    But good advice. The noise would probably be excessive too!
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    Here is a web site of a company that I buy a lot of pumping parts from and that specializes in aquatic systems. They have engineers on staff that could guide you in selection of the pump and nozzles you would need to make your system work. There is much more going on with pumping horse power and sizing than figuring out on how to power it. They have lot's of fountain kits and stuff in their catalog.

    Once you know where your going, them maybe you can get a better answer here.


    http://aquaticeco.com
  • Ismail Khan
    Ismail Khan Registered Users Posts: 9
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    Many thanks. I would need a fountain pump that would throw or give a head of at least a meter and a half, that is four to five feet. I would imagine that one horse power would probably be more than what I need. I will take your advice and speak to some one who deals in water pumps etc and work it out.
  • Ismail Khan
    Ismail Khan Registered Users Posts: 9
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    Thank you Blackcherry. Just sent a note to the company you suggested. Lets see what they have to say.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    Remember pump power is going to be Flow Rate * Pressure... You can have a lot of water flow with low pressure or less water with higher pressure and still use the same amount of power (but different pump models). It depends on your needs.

    And the energy is going to be Power*Time... So, a few hours a day during bright sun and solar panel to pump (no battery bank), vs 24 hours per day or partially into the night/cloudy weather will require a battery bank.

    Using a battery bank makes the system much more expensive (and a lot more maintenance/repair costs over time). A battery based system would typically be around 4-10x the cost of a solar panel only system only.

    If you do a solar panel only system, there are "linear current boosters" which do a good job of matching the solar panel output (higher voltage/lower current) to the requirements of a DC motor (lower voltage/higher current).

    But, in the end, if this is a long term installation, you want an AC motor or one with an electronic controller to get away from brushed motors (brushes need replacing every 6-12 months with motors that run most of the time--and commutators wear out too).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Ismail Khan
    Ismail Khan Registered Users Posts: 9
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    Thank u Bill. I would need a long term solution. It is a permanent feature, so cant really go on spending money on brushes. Its good to invest in a long term solution. I will check out linear current boosters. How many batteries do u think I would need? A 150/200 ampere battery costs around $ 100 here. Sun lasts around 7.00 pm here in summers and then I would need a battery back-up for say another two to three hours to keep the fountain running. Sun rises at 4.00 am so we have plenty of sunshine. From your assessment I gather that I would need a one horse power pump for the fountain to give a water head (casecade) of four to five feet and keep the nozzels running. Is this correct?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    Is this a summer only use--or 12 months of the year, etc..?

    A 1 HP pump is a lot... I do not believe you really want that much water flow.

    For example, Grundfos submersible well pumps are very efficient and a 25 SQF-3 will pump around 32 Gallons per Minute on 760 watts of solar panels (page 30, top graph). Or ~120 liters per minute at 10 meter lift/head.

    From "Blackcherry04"'s link, a typical 1/3 HP surface pump (self priming to 3' above water level) would pump around 25 feet of head with 20 GPM...

    Here is a design example for a vertical fountain... Including an example of the nozzle used.

    And Atlantic Fountains website has a lot of water feature nozzles and the specifications of on water flow and head. Along with pictures and videos of the effects.

    Just to give you a very rough idea... In the US, an off grid power system (battery, solar panels, charge controllers, inverters, etc.) costs around $1 to $2+ per kWH hour used (assuming 20 year life for panels, 10 year life for electronics, 7 year life for batteries).

    A 1 HP motor takes around 1kW to operate. Or ~$1-$2+ per hour to operate from off grid solar. 12 hours per day ~$24 per day, ~$720 per month, etc...

    To produce 1kW or 12 kWH per 12 hour period, you are looking at a system cost of ~$30,000-$40,000 USD (really rough guess--just to give you an idea that this not a cheap power requirement). Lots of details to answer--Exactly how much power do you need (summer/winter), how much equipment will cost you locally, will you do the work or contract somebody to install the system, etc...

    And with water features, you may need filtering, chemicals, etc. to keep the water from turning green (note that if you use chemicals, you probably will smell the chlorine in the water. And with lots of spray, you will have mist settling on nearby objects and probably mineral build up (hard water, evaporation).

    You can add plants, fish, and other natural "filtering" to help... But then you may need UV lighting to kill algae, etc...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Ismail Khan
    Ismail Khan Registered Users Posts: 9
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    Bill. This is really really helpfull. I understand that I dont need really that strength of a submersible pump. I will check the websites you suggested and see what can be done. The fountain is in in the atrium - visible from a bedroom, a living room and my kitchen just opposite the kitchen garden. I added the fountain feature because a) summers here in my part of the world are long and hot and water gives a cool effect, even the sound of it is therapeutic. I will be adding plants to it and I am putting glass tiles inside to avoid algae. Electricity is not cheap and people tend to make rockeries and fountains in houses but then dont use them because it is simply unaffordable for longer duration. Thats why I wanted to go for solar. So, my understanding is that if I use a lower horse power pump, I may be able to afford a solar system to keep the fountain running. Many thanks again for answering my emails.
  • Ismail Khan
    Ismail Khan Registered Users Posts: 9
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    Bill, the wesbite, atlantic.com is really helpful. Just sent them a note. Lets see what they answer.
    Regards
    IK
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    If you have utility power available, it is almost always less expensive than running solar PV power with a battery bank... If you only needed power when the sun is up (say 9am-4pm or so), just a solar panel + linear current booster may be same or a bit less than utility power.

    In the end, conservation will be your best bet... Remember Energy equals (you have to find the units that make sense for your region):
    • Energy = Pressure * Volume * hours per day

    If you can use 1/2 the pressure, your electricity costs will be cut by 1/2. If you can also cut the volume by 1/2, then your costs will be 1/2*1/2=1/4 the costs... If you run only 12 hours per day vs 24 hours per day, then pumping cost will be 1/2*1/2*1/2=1/8th the cost of an over-sized system running 24 hours per day...

    So, a water fall will be probably less expensive vs a spray pushing a stream of water up multiple meters.

    Also, pump types/efficiency can affect pumping costs too.

    And pumps have different characteristics... A centrifugal pump (spinning impeller type) will use less energy as the water flow decreases (say a valve to cut back on flow) (or think if a vacuum cleaner, you block the airflow and the motor speeds up because of less load).

    A constant volume pump (such as one that has pistons), as your restrict water flow, the pressure goes up... I.e., the pump will move 1 liter per second if no pressure or maximum back pressure. With low/no back pressure, the pump will use less enegy. With maximum back pressure, it will use maximum power (and if you block water flow, it will probably stall (stop) the motor and overheat).

    So, understand the type of pump you are looking at and what the minimum amount of flow, pressure, hours of day you can use to make a fountain that will meet your needs/desires.

    Look at the pump performance cures too vs HP/Watts used... Sizing pump to your exact needs and the type of pump can make the pump much more efficient.

    For example, a centrifugal pump designed to lift water 1 meter (self prime) is less efficient (something like 30% more electricity) vs a pump designed to operate below the level of the water (in a pit/blow surface of pond). Of course, if the pump is installed in a pit--you will want to have a drain pump or alarm so that if there is a leak, the pit does not fill with water and ruin the pump.

    In the end, conservation+minimum power design for your water feature will probably be more cost effective vs installing solar.... For example, I would put the money I save by not installing solar into a more expensive/efficient pump and nozzle system to save energy. You will most likely save money over the long run.

    Let us know what you build and post some pictures... It is always interesting to see what folks build.

    Have fun,
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Ismail Khan
    Ismail Khan Registered Users Posts: 9
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    Bill,
    I dont know how to thank u for your valuable suggestions and input. My only regret is that I wish I should have joined this forum earlier, i.e before building the fountain. This would have save me some money and also taken care of some problems, while at the same time, addressing esthetics of having a fountain or water-fall in the atrium. I see now that a water-fall (we call it rockery) here would have consumed less energy therefore more efficient, than having a spray fountain. But now it is done. I am thinking of getting an qualified engineer to sort out the type and size of a submersible pump most suitable for me. The idea of running the pump on solar in day-light, the sun is available from 4.30 am to 7.00 pm here (long days) to run it on solar when solar light is available. But as you said the basic issue here is finding the right pump and then I can proceed further. Many thanks again and I will get back to you with pictures and further feed back. I will continue to relay on sound judgement and advice. Regards
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    You are very welcome Ismail.

    Remember that even though it may be light from 4:30am to 7:00pm, solar panels need direct sun and lots of light to generate significant power. For the most part, with a fixed array, that is going to be something like from 9am to 3pm or so.

    You can install more solar panels to get more energy--But you will not harvest much power at sun up and sun down. Having a tracking array helps--but makes things more complex and expensive.

    To convince yourself how much power is available--Get a small solar cell and connect it to a digital meter set to amps and connect to the solar cell (the short circuit current of a solar cell/panel will be proportional to the amount of sunlight hitting the panel). Point it south with a fixed angle (if fixed array) and see how much current you get at different times of the day. Say you design the system to work down to 1/2 array wattage (a 100 watt motor and a 200 watt array). You will measure Isc (short circuit current) at noon, and then see at what time of the day the panel output falls to 1/2 * Isc-noon.

    If you want the pumping to be more in the afternoon/evening time, you can try the same experiment towards the south west and see if you can get more power for afternoon pumping from the solar panel, etc...

    In the end, solar panels need lots of full sun to provide useful power... Weak sun, off angle sun, shadows/shade all will dramatically reduce panel output power.

    Anyway, hope you have fun completing your project.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain

    Simple.

    Just chose your best, efficient pump, and install a solar Grid Tie system to backfeed the grid in the daytime. Then everything is automatic.

    And because of power factor, losses and such, my 1/2 hp well pump, consumes 1,000 watts, as reported by the inverter.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar System to power 1 horse power pump and led light for my fountain
    Bill. This is really really helpfull. I understand that I dont need really that strength of a submersible pump. I will check the websites you suggested and see what can be done. The fountain is in in the atrium - visible from a bedroom, a living room and my kitchen just opposite the kitchen garden. I added the fountain feature because a) summers here in my part of the world are long and hot and water gives a cool effect, even the sound of it is therapeutic. I will be adding plants to it and I am putting glass tiles inside to avoid algae. Electricity is not cheap and people tend to make rockeries and fountains in houses but then dont use them because it is simply unaffordable for longer duration. Thats why I wanted to go for solar. So, my understanding is that if I use a lower horse power pump, I may be able to afford a solar system to keep the fountain running. Many thanks again for answering my emails.
    Just so you know, pumping water with solar is probably not going to be any cheaper than doing it with grid power, and it might be significantly more expensive.