What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the US?

mike95490 · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

KeithWHare wrote: »

..... Nine years ago, we installed a propane powered generator with auto start, auto transfer. This has been very useful as we are at the end of a power line. When I looked at the usage last Saturday morning, we had averaged 55 hours/year of usage because of power outages. We've added 120 hours since then and I will be pleasantly surprised if our power is back on within the next 120 hours.
Hooking up to the propane tank is the right answer for us (as long as the propane tank is full enough) because we don't have to go searching for fuel.......
Keith

So with propane, I know it's a less dense fuel, if you have a 300g propane tank, and it's at 50% when the storm hits, how much runtime do you have with that? Do you get it re-filled more often, to have generator fuel on hand ?

KeithWHare · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

mike90045 wrote: »

So with propane, I know it's a less dense fuel, if you have a 300g propane tank, and it's at 50% when the storm hits, how much runtime do you have with that? Do you get it re-filled more often, to have generator fuel on hand ?

We have a 500 gallon tank. We were at 50% last Saturday morning. Yesterday morning, we were at 35%, so 15%, 75 gallons, in 96 hours. We are on the list for a propane refill, but I *think* we are OK.

Keeping the propane tank fuller in anticipation of an extended power outage would require additional planning and forethought than I usually exhibit.

Keith

techntrek · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

KeithWHare wrote: »

...When I replace this generator, I will attempt to remember to look for a setup that has the ability to turn off the generator from inside house as this would make it easier to conserve generator time.

My Generac wasn't designed to be controlled from inside, but it was fairly easy to modify it. I added a switch in series with the "on" switch in the genset control panel (which controls the manual and auto-run settings the way mine is wired). Then I added a switch in series with the control line running to the transfer switch. I had to also move the wires that run one of the two solenoids in the transfer switch (the utility-side solenoid) so it runs from the genset. I ran the wires for the two switches 60 feet to just inside the man-door in my garage. A bit confusing how I've written it, but really it was a few simple changes.

In the end during a long outage I can transfer the load back to utility, effectively removing it from the genset. Wait 60 seconds to cool the engine and generator, then switch off the genset. Then reverse the process to start it up, only waiting 20 seconds before applying the load to the genset again.

mike95490 · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

techntrek wrote: »

....... In the end during a long outage I can transfer the load back to utility, effectively removing it from the genset. Wait 60 seconds to cool the engine and generator, then switch off the genset. .....

Good thinking, I've heard a 3-5 minute cool down, depending on the load. otherwise, meltdown.

2manytoyz · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

techntrek wrote: »

You do not need to run a genset 24/7 during an outage. Your fridge(s) and freezer(s) have plenty of thermal carryover to last 12 hours w/o power. Turn it off overnight, run it for 1-2 hours in the morning to cool things down again while you get ready for work, then turn it off again and put it inside your garage. Come home and run it for the hours you are at home that evening. Solves getting up in the night, saves gas, and ensures it will be there when you get home.

I would suggest TRYING this. I've heard this recommendation before, but when I performed the test myself, I found both of my fridges go into defrost mode shortly after transferring power. I don't know if all of them are this way, or if this will occur everytime, but this surprised me.

Both of my fridges draw about 600W during the defrost cycle. This "normally" happens once a day when plugged into the grid. They only draw about 150W with the compressor running, and under a Watt when not running (timer still operating).

Maybe both of them going into the defrost mode was a fluke, but I plan on testing this again soon. YMMV.

I'm in FL, and power outages and hurricanes are a way of life. When a major storm hits, wind is a major issue, as is rain. It's difficult to rely on a generator while the rain is driving sideways. During the last tropical storm, one resident ran their generator inside their garage with the door open. He died from carbon monoxide. One of the few deaths that occured.

So I operate on battery power (900AH battery bank) at night during an outage, or during the day if we are hit with heavy rain. Using batteries and an inverter is a silent way to supply power, less likely to attract neighbors dragging extension cords to your house (BTDT). When the weather clears during the day, I'll use my generator, and hopefully solar power to replenish the battery bank.

At least cold weather isn't much of a factor in FL, and hurricanes don't sneak up.

techntrek · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

mike90045 wrote: »

Good thinking, I've heard a 3-5 minute cool down, depending on the load. otherwise, meltdown.

The only reason I go with 1 minute is that is the normal cooldown period built into the system when it shuts itself down (after utility returns). Longer wouldn't hurt!

techntrek · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

2manytoyz wrote: »

... less likely to attract neighbors dragging extension cords to your house ...

Or hoses, which happened to my parents this week. Came home to find a neighbor had run a hose 300 feet between their houses, to backfeed via their own outdoor spigot. Without asking.

At least that neighbor has a small genset so they didn't also run 300 feet of extension cords.

waynefromnscanada · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

techntrek wrote: »

Or hoses, which happened to my parents this week. Came home to find a neighbor had run a hose 300 feet between their houses, to backfeed via their own outdoor spigot. Without asking. At least that neighbor has a small genset so they didn't also run 300 feet of extension cords.

WOW! That's BOLD of them!!!
Sounds like something my Brother-in-law would do. Hahahahaha

niel · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

i trust somebody called the police as that's outright theft.

well it looks like the heatwave is smacking me now as i'm no longer on the fringe of it. there are some mid to upper 90s here and even a stray 3 digit number here and there right now, but tomorrow it will be at the century mark nearly everywhere around here. good thing they are saying the end is in sight for the beginning of next week, at least me my area anyway.

techntrek · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Well, they did ask if they could take some water so they could flush their toilets. My parents of course said "yes". So technically they were doing that. Stretching it a bit!

I guess in the end its just about looking after your neighbor, especially after being neighbors for 33 years...

vcallaway · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

In situations like that you really need neighbors to watch out for each other.

Couple years ago we had an outage that went on for a few days. I'm out in the garage, with the lights on

checking the batteries when a neighbor comes walking up. Asked him what he was out doing and he said "Measuring for an extension cord". Couple of months later I set him up with a backup system like mine. He thanked me for it when the ice storm hit this last winter.

2manytoyz · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

I guess it depends on your neighbors. Some will do some preps themselves, and those are the types I don't mind helping. Others bury their heads in the sand, and are the first to run to my house with an extension cord, or a hand out.

This is why I built a blackout circuit. When the grid goes down, all my exterior lighting is turned off, despite them being solar/battery powered. I don't want my house lit up. I wrote a basic article for another forum on this topic: http://www.alpharubicon.com/altenergy/2manytoyzblackoutswitch.htm

In my last neighborhood, I actually had a lady stop by my house and tell me her "plan" was to bring an extension cord to my house to run her husband's oxygen concentrator, CPAP machine, her fridge, etc. I told her she would be SOL. My generator, fuel supplies, and solar were SIZEd for MY needs, not the needs of the neighborhood. I told her I'd help her select, maintain, and operate a small generator, but that would be something she would need to buy before a storm. She never discussed the topic again. I've since moved...

Ralph Day · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

How incredibly tactful Robert! I fear I might not have been. Usually, if I volunteer to help someone, I do, and don't charge anything (maybe cost of fuel)...but if they ask, I charge or barter. If they come with unreal expectations they're trespassing!

Extension cords would have to be 500 feet long to help off my system and both neighbour's within that distance have generators anyway (rural living at it's best)

Ralph

Slappy · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Good write up. On the black out relay. Thanks

techntrek · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

If the Ultimate Blackout ever comes, that will be invaluable. Making sure interior lighting isn't visible from the outside will also be necessary. Luckily my neighbors are far enough away that they can't run extension cords to my house so I don't worry about what they see. If they did drag out enough cords to bridge the distance they might get one CFL to work - maybe. We get enough outages that they all at least have smaller gensets so they wouldn't try.

My bigger worry is noise if a very long-term outage happens. Two of my 3 backups are silent or so quiet you have to be within 100 feet to hear them. Once those options run out after about a month I'm left with my big genset which screams to the world "I'm here! Right here!". Hopefully at the 30-day mark my only need for electricity would be to get clean water from my well - everything in the fridges and freezer would be eaten first to eliminate the need for refridgeration and should be gone or nearly gone by then. Getting a hand pump for the well is on my to-do list so that will solve my noise issue, too.

icarus · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

When the "ultimate blackout" happens, we (collectively ) are going to have a lot more to worry about than whether or not our neighbors can see if our lights are on,, IMHO!

Tony

techntrek · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

True, but it isn't a good idea to light a candle to attract the moths.

jagec · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

My grid-tied system in Baltimore withstood the winds, although I was sweating bullets during the storm because I KNOW that my contractor was, shall we say, sub-par. I don't know if it actually made a difference, but I was still glad that I dragged some concrete blocks up there to ballast the installation somewhat.

Amazingly we didn't lose power (many of my co-workers did), but even if we had, I have a mini-backup system from before the solar that can power the fridge, a backup sump pump, and a couple lights for a day or two (much more if I cut the fridge out of the circuit). I recently added a solar charger so that in theory, the system would be able to power those things indefinitely in future outages.

For AC, I'd need a generator, but I can tough it out for short periods. For long periods, well, I probably wouldn't want to be living in a city if it got to that point!

KeithWHare · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Now that the power in Ohio is mostly back on, I've heard a couple of anecdotal reports of refrigerators not cooling properly when run on generators.

I don't know if it something like somebody mentioned earlier in this thread of the refrigerators kicking into the defrost cycle immediately on getting power, or if the power from the cheap generators was not sufficiently regulated for the electronic control. Any thoughts?

I do know that counting on a gasoline generator when there is a area-wide power outage is a problem -- very few gas stations were operating here in the first couple of days after the storm.

Keith

ggunn · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

KeithWHare wrote: »

I do know that counting on a gasoline generator when there is a area-wide power outage is a problem -- very few gas stations were operating here in the first couple of days after the storm.

Yeah, that was an unpleasant surprise for many around New Orleans who thought they were prepared for Katrina. The gas stations all have electric pumps. No grid, no gas.

BB. · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

With a modern self defrosting refrigerator, I would guess that they would need around 12 hours of generator runtime per day--probably all in one long uninterrupted chunk (given that from other posts here that the modern electronic defrost timer starts over on a power hit).

Not many small generators will run 12 hours straight (the Honda eux000i family needs a siphon setup to a 5 gallon gas can to do that). And filling a running genset is a good way to burn down a home.

Plus, if it were a standard 3.5 to 5kW genset, they gulp down fuel (1/4 to 1/2 gallon per hour--guessing)--Looking at 3-6 gallons of fuel per 12 hours of runtime... For many people that would be enough to drain the car/spare fuel in a couple days, let alone run for 5-10 days with no open gas stations.

That is the missing part for many of us (me included) that we miss for disaster planning... I have not tried running my home for 2 days on the backup genset to see what problems I may run across either.

-Bill

Dill · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

I fill my EU1000i when running from a race-fuel style can. It has a long, flexible hose that fits inside the fuel neck. Then again, it sits outside away from anything that could burn, and one of those extended run setups would be nice...

BB. · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

A vendor where you can purchase a kit (not cheap):

http://www.wisesales.com/generators-1/honda-generators/honda-generator-accessories-1/honda-generator-extended-run-fuel-tanks-1.html

And it looks like somebody made an aluminum fuel cap for Honda (and Yamaha?) inverter generators (note, the reason the Honda eux000i family generators can pull a vacuum to lift fuel from a remote tank is because the Honda's (and some Yamaha?) generators have an internal fuel pump. Fill the generator tank, put on the siphon assembly, then start... As the fuel goes down in the genset tank, it draws fuel from the attached external tank).

http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_kw=Extended+run+fuel+tank+Honda+generator+Eu2000i+eu+2000i

There are lots of youtube videos on how to do the rest of the setup:

http://www.generatornation.com/generator-videos/generator-installation-videos/diy-guide-to-a-honda-eu2000i-extended-run-fuel-system/

-Bill

Dill · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

they almost look like plastic outboard motor fuel cells. Now the wheels are turning

BB. · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Whatever floats your boat.

-Bill

KeithWHare · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

BB. wrote: »

With a modern self defrosting refrigerator, I would guess that they would need around 12 hours of generator runtime per day--probably all in one long uninterrupted chunk (given that from other posts here that the modern electronic defrost timer starts over on a power it).

That's actually a pretty ugly feature when one is trying to get by on a small generator or any other form of intermittent power.

...

That is the missing part for many of us (me included) that we miss for disaster planning... I have not tried running my home for 2 days on the backup genset to see what problems I may run across either.

-Bill

Having recently tested running my home for 8 days on the backup genset, I know what problems to expect.

Keith

topper · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

The thought crossed my mind a few times to do a 2 week test run. I know batteries will last a while if I monitor everyone's use. Genset and 30 gallons of fuel. My math says probably 10 days. Reality I am sure will tell me quite a different story. Next days off I have got to get at it just so I KNOW..

inetdog · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

KeithWHare wrote: »

That's actually a pretty ugly feature when one is trying to get by on a small generator or any other form of intermittent power.

You can find both refrigerators and freezers for sale without the self-defrost feature. The surest sign other than closely reading the manual is to see whether the cooling coils are are in the shelves or are hidden out of sight with a fan to move air over them. The latter is necessary for auto-defrost since it lets the coils warm up without letting the food warm up too.

The downside is that every now and then (more if you open the unit more often or if your local humidity is too high) you will have to move all of the food out into an insulated cooler (maybe with dry ice) while you melt the ice coating off the shelves.

inetdog · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

KeithWHare wrote: »

Having recently tested running my home for 8 days on the backup genset, I know what problems to expect.

True story: A radio station I worked at knew that there was a scheduled power outage at the studio lasting about a day while the utility replaced a substation transformer. The station had well engineered backup batteries (telco surplus) and low power operating modes for the studio equipment, but the chief engineer wanted to run a full 8 hour test and did. The backup power came through with flying colors. The only problem was that at that point there was not enough time before the outage to recharge the batteries. :-(

mikeo · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

topper wrote: »

The thought crossed my mind a few times to do a 2 week test run. I know batteries will last a while if I monitor everyone's use. Genset and 30 gallons of fuel. My math says probably 10 days. Reality I am sure will tell me quite a different story. Next days off I have got to get at it just so I KNOW..

In emergency mode my all electric house draws about 350 watts 24/7. I am running a large freezer, fridge, well pump and a few lights. I have to cook on an outdoor gas grill or wood stove in winter. I have about 940 ah battery bank and if the sun shines normally after the power outage, I am at a deficit of about -110 amp hours/day. At 4 days at this rate my battery will be 50% depleted. At that time I have to run my PTO tractor driven 13kw generator for about 6 hours to get the battery bank above 90%. With this amount of power I can also use the electric cook stove, heat hot water and get a shower in for the family and if needed wash and dry clothes. The reality is that after most weather related power outages, there may be days of little or no sunshine which would require running the generator every other day. I try to keep 50 gallons of diesel on hand to go for a while. My worst case experience so far is 21 days without power when tornado took out the only transmission line supplying mine and surrounding counties. There was no power to the gas pumps in the main towns at all. After the 3rd day Walmart brought in two big generator trucks. one to supply the local Walmart, and another to supply the power to our hospital as the tornado also destroyed part of the hospital as well as the hospital backup unit. Hopefully few will have to experience this long an outage but it is something to keep in mind when you design your backup systems.

What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the US?

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