What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the US?

waynefromnscanada · July 2012

Just wondering the opinion of those more experienced than I with high winds, what is you're opinion on properly installed off-grid solar surviving such storms with up to 100 MPH winds. Just seeing the images of devastation across parts of the US, realizing some may not have power restored for a long time, and wondering the chances for survival of any off grid systems there.

Ken Marsh · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Good question.
Going by memory, our home panels, 270 watt Sun Teks, are rated for 100 mph wind when mounted with four fasteners.
If you space the fasteners out to the outside holes they are rated for 130 mph wind.
This assumes that the mounts stay in place.

We had quite a blow two days ago.
We are just North of Ft. Wayne a large share of which is still out of power.
We were fortunate. Everything stayed in place.

It seems like most of the Solar equipped on this board also have gen sets.
We could still pump water and keep refrigeration on even if the panels blew away.

Cariboocoot · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Whack a panel with debris at that speed and kiss it goodbye. This is usually what causes most of the damage; not the wind itself.

Rest assured that as soon as power and Internet are restored in those areas at least some of the afflicted will be joining this forum to inquire about putting in $20,000 worth of solar electric back-up power so it doesn't happen to them again.

And we'll say "buy a generator". :cool:

niel · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

i can say that so far i did not get any bad storms even though we got some storms here, but just being on the fringe of this heat wave makes me think i'm sunk even with some solar backup should the power fail long term and that's only for my refrig to be run and a few lights. i have a genny, but it is way too noisy to run at any time except during the day. this makes me think of what anybody who in the thick of it all has to deal with and it is mind boggling unless one has a worst case off grid backup system. i am not too fond of mid to upper 90s and i'm now in the area of upper 80s to low 90s and will be for awhile. 3 digits are rare for pittsburgh and i certainly don't want a summer season like i have seen a few times where we had consistent temps in the 90s to low 100s. many of you guys way out west get temps like this regularly and that's not for me. add high humidity to that equation and it would probably put me in the hospital now that i'm older.

btw, the first job title i had as an adult was an iceman. needless to say i did like it, but my boss moved out to phoenix back in the 70s and i opted to stay here with my so called friends and family. as far as talking of my ice job i know this isn't along the lines of the subject matter, but i have to tell it. the time i regretted the job was when i lost control of a 300lb block of ice and it fell on my left foot. it was plenty painful and i opted to try and work through the day, but by the end of the day i told the manager it is too bad and i'll need to go to the hospital for it. well, it was bad with all of its splendid colors and blood that pooled under a few toe nails. well, after the xrays turned up negative and they relieved the pooled blood (sparing particulars) they gave me the instructions to care for the wound. stay off of it as much as i can, elevate when i can, change the dressing on the bandage so often, and put ice on it.

mike95490 · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

niel wrote: »

..... instructions to care for the wound. stay off of it as much as i can, elevate when i can, change the dressing on the bandage so often, and put ice on it.

A little "hair of the dog" huh !! Ironic.

waynefromnscanada · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

niel wrote: »

i lost control of a 300lb block of ice and it fell on my left foot..

OUCH!!! And I thought it was bad when I dropped a 50 pound bucket of chain of the back of a delivery truck, down on my foot!
But back to the subject, some interesting thoughts there. Things to think about for sure.

solar_dave · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

niel wrote: »

i many of you guys way out west get temps like this regularly and that's not for me. add high humidity to that equation and it would probably put me in the hospital now that i'm older.

btw, the first job title i had as an adult was an iceman. needless to say i did like it, but my boss moved out to phoenix back in the 70s .

Well I lived in both Michigan and Colorado, I don't think I could go back to either. The winters are way to brutal. Phoenix is a lifestyle change, outdoor activities in summer are done from 5AM to like 10 AM. Our shut in times are June to September, yours is Nov. to April. Even my man cave garage and shop have AC.

Even with Outages like they are experiencing, I would not tell them to get a battery backup. The most cost effective backup is a generator, even here. A generator with a fuel backup could keep the essential loads like freezer, fridge, some lighting and a low power Tv operational makes perfect sense. You are probably correct in assuming that Phoenix would be a challenge on generator, but I do have Nat Gas so that could be a possibility. These once in a lifetime events here would require at least a 10 Kw generator this time of year. Funny you started this thread, the wife and I discussed last night what we could do in the event of the grid loss for an extended period.

CVN-71 · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

The reason I installed my solar system in the first place is because our grid is terrible, we lose power for rain, sun, wind, snow, hot weather, you name it. After being without power in middle of winter for 7 days and running generator 24/7 spending big $$$ on gas to keep it running, getting up in middle of night to fill gas, the solar made so much sense. Since installing it, it has been used for grid outages at least 8 times, including another 7 day span last October. We had hurricane winds once, the panels held up fine. IMO, it just doesn't make sense to run a 6000w generator to run a fridge, tv and lights, etc part time. Overkill and costly for gas. Plus when at work you have to worry about your generator being there when you get home.

Dill · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

my EU1000i and a 5000btu window AC would keep the small bedroom in my house comfortable even in this ridiculous heat and humidity that is rolling in here. I don't care how hot it is, 72 degree dew points are NOT comfortable. It kind of makes me want to find some property with some elevation changes so I could build a berm home or something.

inetdog · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Dill wrote: »

It kind of makes me want to find some property with some elevation changes so I could build a berm home or something.

You could always just dig a root cellar, storm cellar, or full basement and live down there during the summer.
In our house in Illinois, with a basement, we could get a one time hit of comfort in the house by opening the furnace return air plenum panel and running the fan to get the cool basement air into the house. :-)

Dill · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

quite true, my parents own an old 1890's farm house with a root cellar, and it's always fabulous down there in the summer. We've definitely forgotten some of the old tricks of our ancestors that's for sure.

techntrek · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

CVN-71 wrote: »

... spending big $$$ on gas to keep it running, getting up in middle of night to fill gas ... when at work you have to worry about your generator being there when you get home.

You do not need to run a genset 24/7 during an outage. Your fridge(s) and freezer(s) have plenty of thermal carryover to last 12 hours w/o power. Turn it off overnight, run it for 1-2 hours in the morning to cool things down again while you get ready for work, then turn it off again and put it inside your garage. Come home and run it for the hours you are at home that evening. Solves getting up in the night, saves gas, and ensures it will be there when you get home.

techntrek · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

inetdog wrote: »

... we could get a one time hit of comfort in the house by opening the furnace return air plenum panel and running the fan to get the cool basement air into the house. :-)

May parents are w/o power right now due to the big east coast storm, and have done what you describe several times over the last few days. It has worked well for them.

solar_dave · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

techntrek wrote: »

You do not need to run a genset 24/7 during an outage. Your fridge(s) and freezer(s) have plenty of thermal carryover to last 12 hours w/o power. Turn it off overnight, run it for 1-2 hours in the morning to cool things down again while you get ready for work, then turn it off again and put it inside your garage. Come home and run it for the hours you are at home that evening. Solves getting up in the night, saves gas, and ensures it will be there when you get home.

And we always keep about 4 gallon jugs of water in the back deep freeze for just such an outage. They can be moved to the fridge for help in the carryover.
BTW-Well it varies on how much stuff the wife finds on sale!

techntrek · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

For any handy/knowledgeable people that drop in looking for a future power solution for long outages - remember that for about $500 in equipment and minor modifications they can use a Prius in place of a generator. It uses about as much fuel as a 2 kw inverter-genset but can support a 3 kw load continuous (and a surge load of several times that). Quiet too, it won't wake up the neighbors if you run it overnight.

Cariboocoot · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Well I have used an El Cheapo big MSW inverter powered off the truck to run the 'frige to cool down in a pinch.
But I prefer the Honda EU. Uses a lot less gas.

solar_dave · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

techntrek wrote: »

For any handy/knowledgeable people that drop in looking for a future power solution for long outages - remember that for about $500 in equipment and minor modifications they can use a Prius in place of a generator. It uses about as much fuel as a 2 kw inverter-genset but can support a 3 kw load continuous (and a surge load of several times that). Quiet too, it won't wake up the neighbors if you run it overnight.

Yay and the Volt can take a 1000 watt inverter off the 12 v battery and go a long time before the engine will kick in to Charge Sustaining mode, then my guess is it will consume about 1/2 a gallon an hour as it cycles the engine. If you use Mountain mode, at 40% SOC it will start cycling the engine/generator. So with 2 Volts/inverters we would be good to keep the fridge & freezer running and maybe the internet connection, VOIP phones and a smaller TV.

Cariboocoot · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

And how much does a Chevy Volt cost?
We need to know this so people can make an informed choice between it and a Honda EU2000i. :roll:

solar_dave · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Cariboocoot wrote: »

And how much does a Chevy Volt cost?
We need to know this so people can make an informed choice between it and a Honda EU2000i. :roll:

Well of course a bit more than a Honda! and a Prius! In the US with the Federal tax credits of $7500 you can put one in your garage for about $32,500 US.
P.S. Ontario has even higher Government participation.

Of course the nice part is doing most of your driving without the use of Gasoline. Wife's Volt has 6K miles on 2.2 gallons, charged off the Grid Tie setup. Hers is rated on voltstats.net @ over 1000 mpg, mine is about 300 mpg.

techntrek · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

solar_dave wrote: »

Yay and the Volt can take a 1000 watt inverter off the 12 v battery and go a long time before the engine will kick in to Charge Sustaining mode, then my guess is it will consume about 1/2 a gallon an hour as it cycles the engine. If you use Mountain mode, at 40% SOC it will start cycling the engine/generator. So with 2 Volts/inverters we would be good to keep the fridge & freezer running and maybe the internet connection, VOIP phones and a smaller TV.

And that is w/o any modification. If you tapped into the traction battery you could power much more with just one Volt. 8)

techntrek · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Cariboocoot wrote: »

And how much does a Chevy Volt cost?
We need to know this so people can make an informed choice between it and a Honda EU2000i. :roll:

If you already have a Volt or Prius in the garage its a "sunk cost", so the Honda inverter-genset would cost more. You gotta love accounting rules.

If you are comparing the costs of a genset along with a regular car vs. a Volt or Prius, the extra cost of either car may make sense, especially if you factor in operating costs (operating as a genset or automobile).

Cariboocoot · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

They haven't made a 4WD version of either vehicle so it's not likely one will land in my driveway soon, no matter what the price.
As for the hybrid Highlander ... $60,000 and not enough ground clearance.

I do wonder how the electric vehicles would fair in our brutal cold Winters, though. Especially if left unused for a few of those -30C days.

solar_dave · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

techntrek wrote: »

And that is w/o any modification. If you tapped into the traction battery you could power much more with just one Volt. 8)

True but anything else would void,the warranty. There is an unused 80 amp fuse location in the fuse box. The APM DC to DC converter is rated at max 175 amps.

inetdog · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Cariboocoot wrote: »

I do wonder how the electric vehicles would fair in our brutal cold Winters, though. Especially if left unused for a few of those -30C days.

The cells they use for the traction batteries hold up pretty well at low temperatures, and a bit of hard driving will warm them up nice and toasty. As for starting the engine in a hybrid, the traction battery and motors are used to start the engine in the Prius, so no problem cranking it over. The emissions would be on the high side until it reached operating temperature though.

Dill · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

I wonder how the efficiency would be affected though? Cold bearings and stiff grease would hurt it I'd imagine.

Cariboocoot · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Dill wrote: »

I wonder how the efficiency would be affected though? Cold bearings and stiff grease would hurt it I'd imagine.

It doesn't do conventional vehicles any good. But for them we have block heaters and battery maintainers to ease the strain.

solar_dave · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Cariboocoot wrote: »

It doesn't do conventional vehicles any good. But for them we have block heaters and battery maintainers to ease the strain.

The Volt has a Thermal management system, I know it kicks in at high temps to cool the battery but not so sure about way cold. A remote start does warm the cooling loop and if under 25F it starts the ICE.

techntrek · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

From what I've read as long as the Volt is connected to the charger it heats or cools the battery as necessary. I assume it has to rely on the engine to warm it up if it is left unplugged in a cold environment.

silvertop · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

Cariboocoot wrote: »

They haven't made a 4WD version of either vehicle so it's not likely one will land in my driveway soon, no matter what the price.
As for the hybrid Highlander ... $60,000 and not enough ground clearance.

I do wonder how the electric vehicles would fair in our brutal cold Winters, though. Especially if left unused for a few of those -30C days.

The same for us, we saw that they now have a Prius C that lists for under $20,000 but going over our mountain passes(to the sunny side) I want 4/WD. Everyone is in a heat wave and last night we had a fire in the wood stove, a can't beleave on July 3 ! Still jacket weather...... no summer yet..... highs in the 60's

SCharles · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

Just wondering the opinion of those more experienced than I with high winds, what is you're opinion on properly installed off-grid solar surviving such storms with up to 100 MPH winds. Just seeing the images of devastation across parts of the US, realizing some may not have power restored for a long time, and wondering the chances for survival of any off grid systems there.

Our offgrid home is high in Colorado where wind is common. By wind, I mean it is not unusual to have 50+ mph gusts. Last November, we had the worst winds I know of here, at least in some years. The official call was 115 mph. I lay awake that night worrying whether the roof was gonna fly off and would I survive. Anyhow, next morning, the PV array was fine, no damage. I have about 2700 w. of panels, so quite a few. All are in racks I built of angle iron, concreted into the ground. So, no motorized or other arrays on a single pipe. Which probably helped. In any case, our arrays withstood 115 mph winds. No damage to the panels or cables/wires. I feel rather fortunate.

We also had a once-a-century snow storm back in '03 that dropped well over five feet of snow here one night. Some areas near here had eleven feet. The entire region was cut off from going anywhere. It was 8 days before we got out. We had electricity here at the house the entire time. The pv panels were buried [from higher-than-five-feet drifts] for a couple days, til I could managed to get to them, but our battery bank was fine.

So, in offgrid terms, we have "weathered" almost 30 years without a blip. The current wildfires raging here in the west will take us out if anything starts in our gulch, quite probably, but other than that, we have been just fine.

As to the hybrid or elec. cars, I am in the same situation as a couple other posters: I need a car with decent ground clearance and good range and four-wheel-drive. That does not fit the description of any elec. cars. Or hybrids. They also cannot cost $35K+. I also really need a pickup truck for firewood, etc. Essential up here. I currently drive a Tacoma. We're 30 miles from Denver, nearest city, and 98% of our round trips mean driving, at minimum, 80 miles, usually more like 100. And that includes the steep hills the interstate traverses, hills that would eat up battery storage in an e' car. So, a car with good ground clearance, great range, four-wheel-drive for those winter snow storms, and reasonable cost to purchase. Probably many years away, if ever.

KeithWHare · July 2012

Re: What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the

My house has been running on a generator since last Friday evening and I have several thoughts/comments...

When we built the house 20 years ago, we made two mistakes:

We oriented the ridge line of the roof north-south so there is no good roof space for solar panel installation
We didn't clear the trees back enough

While the trees have advantages in keeping the house cool, there is no good location close to the house that is not severely shaded. The trees also block breezes and hold humidity in the area. Because of this, we need to run the AC in the summer to reduce moisture in the house and prevent mold/mildew problems.

Nine years ago, we installed a propane powered generator with auto start, auto transfer. This has been very useful as we are at the end of a power line. When I looked at the usage last Saturday morning, we had averaged 55 hours/year of usage because of power outages. We've added 120 hours since then and I will be pleasantly surprised if our power is back on within the next 120 hours.

Hooking up to the propane tank is the right answer for us (as long as the propane tank is full enough) because we don't have to go searching for fuel. When I replace this generator, I will attempt to remember to look for a setup that has the ability to turn off the generator from inside house as this would make it easier to conserve generator time.

A week ago, I had never heard the term 'super Derecho' nor had I experienced one. In retrospect, I was quite happy with this ignorance.

Keith

What of the millions of people without power because of the severe storms across the US?

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