Battery Bank for my 12v system??

ywhic
ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
I bought 870 watts of 12v PV so I should be at like 667 watts going into the bank on a good day (77%).

This was discussed and on a good sunny day I would be OK to run my 5000BTU A/C without too much worry for like 3-4 hours.. as most of the power would come from the panels (per say) and not the bank..

I was going to start with 3 115ah batteries and be at 345ah of battery bank..

The possible usage for 1 days without sun...

A/C at 50 ah use for 4 hours = 200 ah (only if over 85' and without sun and just hot)
Water Pump for 1 hour (switch) = 7 ah
Small fridge 110v (290 watts) = ??
CFL Bulb 110v @ 26 watts = ??

I surmized I would need like a minimum of 445ah of bank to just barely survive for 1 day..

What size bank should I go with for 2 full days without sun??

Also I am running 3/0 wire to the 2000W inverter.. can I just use 2AWG wiring on the battery bank batteries and be ok?? (these are readily available to me at the store)..

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    Al, weren't you going to use a Tristar 45 PWM for your 12 Volt system? If so, 870 Watts is more than it will handle as it has the capacity for 55 Amps. If you want to be running that A/C drawing 50 Amps out of the battery, better go up to a 60 Amp controller.

    Three 115 Amp hour 12 Volt batteries? Not a good choice, starting with three parallel connections. What would work minimally here is the common golf cart battery @ 220 Amp hours: two in series gets you 12 Volts, two such strings in parallel gives you 440 Amp hours. I just bought some East Penn PS2200's and they're 232 Amp hours: that would give you 464 Amp hours @ 12 Volts. Keep in mind my system is 24 Volts so there's four in one string. I also have only 700 Watts of panel, but it's a tad more efficient up here.

    Small 'frige @ 290 Watts? What is the point? My big 'frige uses 120 Watts or about 1.2 kW hours per day.
    CFL's are usually 13 Watts, unless you have two. Some have rather poor power factor so they'll actually use more Volt Amps.

    Since you're nearly at a similar system to mine, I'll tell you I use 2.4 kW hours per day. NO A/C (millions of gallons of water in the front yard; who needs it? :D ), but full size 'frige, 1/3 HP water pump (about 6 minutes per day; if more is needed the generator is run), computer set-up (big power user even with laptops because it is on so long). My battery bank is sized to keep things going "overnight" and works well in that respect. If I were to plan on days of no sun I'd have to double or triple everything. For me that's too expensive; it's cheaper to run the gen a few hours a day and not have a lot of solar capacity doing nothing on days when the sun does shine.

    The size of the wires between batteries depends on the maximum current you expect to draw from the batteries. The current draw will be the same on all connectors. 2 AWG is good for up to about 130 Amps, which is around 1500 Watts on 12 Volts. It's 3000 Watts on 24, btw.

    I really think you should be going 24 Volt system here. 800+ Watts of panel, parallel batteries? You're nearly there. You've got practically all the ingredients except the inverter.
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    I thought we decided the 7.75 IMP per panel was ok for upto 6 panels.. 46.5 amps into the MS TS-45 PWM controller??

    * Pmax: 145W
    * Vmp: 18.7V
    * Imp: 7.75A
    * Voc: 22.3V
    * Isc: 8.37A

    I was guessing at the fridge numbers.. the one I was just eyeballing is .9 KW/day rated.. sorry..
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??
    ywhic wrote: »
    I thought we decided the 7.75 IMP per panel was ok for upto 6 panels.. 46.5 amps into the MS TS-45 PWM controller??

    I was guessing at the fridge numbers.. the one I was just eyeballing is .9 KW/day rated.. sorry..

    Yes, you're right; I forgot your panels have a higher than normal Vmp.

    Along those lines the Wattage you'll get won't be the 77% efficiency factor usually used. It will be more like Imp * battery Voltage. The chances of seeing 7.75 Amps @ 14.4 Absorb Volts are pretty close to nil.

    It's a shame you can't afford the MPPT version of the MS because at 870 Watts the advantage would be there. Especially the ease of wiring the array advantage. ;) I know: hundreds of dollars! When I bought my MX60 it was over $900. Still a good long-term investment.

    Have you see the thread on small 'friges under energy use & conservation? http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?12272-Just-how-bad-a-small-frige-is There's a lot of good info in there.
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    You scared me and I just cancelled 1 panel.. now I feel like an idiot..

    Should have waited for a reply.. oh well 725 w of PV should be fine.. and that stupid MS calc said that was the max anyway..

    I'll go with the 2AWg as my continuous load will be way under the 1500w...
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    Okay, that was a mistake. Sorry, but with the number of questions (many of which are very similar, of course) I sometimes forget who's got what.

    The 5 panels will still work in parallel, even on 450 Amp hours. Trouble is, if you want to up system Voltage and/or use MPPT ...

    Maybe we can carve that one in stone someplace around here: always buy panels in pairs. At worst you'd have an "extra" panel waiting in the wings. Or you could disconnect it on sunny days and add it in on cloudy days, which was what you had intended to do anyway.

    Remember what it says on the cover of The Guide: Don't Panic! :p
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    Not happy as Amazon banged my card already for the 3.. so the new replacement order for 2 can't go.. and there $20/panel more..

    I'm hoping Amazon and DM can get this fixed for me.. I'd rather keep the 3 at this point since I was charged for 3 already..
  • mikeo
    mikeo Solar Expert Posts: 386 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??
    ywhic wrote: »
    Not happy as Amazon banged my card already for the 3.. so the new replacement order for 2 can't go.. and there $20/panel more..

    I'm hoping Amazon and DM can get this fixed for me.. I'd rather keep the 3 at this point since I was charged for 3 already..
    You will be happier with 6 panels as many days will not be full sun. You aren't too far over spec, and later you may opt for a MPPT charge controller to max the amount the panels can harvest. I think your load will likely exceed what you anticipate.
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    Amazon after 45 minutes.. put 3 panels in at $160 each with free 1 days shipping..

    So the $20/panel extra covers the 1 day shipping per panel I'm sure.. just frustrating.. now the rep has to call me back on Monday to put the charge thru there system as my money is tied up on the debit card.

    Sooooo not happy.. I was stupid to jump the gun and now that cost me $60 and time.. I would have had the 3 panels on Thrusday.

    Darn it..
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    You were told about these pitfalls and you didn,t listen. At least you are getting the same kind of panels, I hope. When you are looking for free shipping it is usualy figured in the price. After 67 years I learned nothing is free with some kind of unknowns. Looking for a tv on Walmart site with free shipping I went to local store and they had the same tv about $60 less. So if I would have got the free shipping it would have cost me %60 more. :Dsolarvic:D
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    Like I said I should have left it at 3 panels then I got spooked.. didn't wait and tried to kill 1 panel off the 3 lot.. it took the entire order out and left the CC processing so funds can't be accessed till that mess drops off.
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    After all that.. I am at 4 panels (of the same) coming in.. got to wait for the processing to drop off and hopefully grab either panel #5 and/or #6 on Monday..

    Otherwise I will be at just 580 watts which still isn't a bad start for a system that won't be put in for like 9 months..
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    Yes for you I hope it works out in the end. Looks like you did a lot of planning and looking for value and a workable system. When I want to buy something, like you I do a lot of research comparing product and value of what I want. Last year I bought a new car but shopped for 5 or 6 weeks looking at different colors, different accessorys and cost and even looked in 2 states. Yes I only live about 15 miles from Ohio. Decided to buy from a local dealer, got the best price, color, equipment I wanted. I trust the dealer, have been treatested well, get good service and kept the sales tax in the state I live in. I had bad experience buying out of state before. With age and school of hard knocks I learned abot everything the hard way. So I think all the questions you asked helped you a lot. solarvic Saw your next post before you posted this. Why not order the # 5 and #6 panel together in one ordrt
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??
    Three 115 Amp hour 12 Volt batteries? Not a good choice, starting with three parallel connections. What would work minimally here is the common golf cart battery @ 220 Amp hours: two in series gets you 12 Volts, two such strings in parallel gives you 440 Amp hours.

    CFL's are usually 13 Watts, unless you have two. Some have rather poor power factor so they'll actually use more Volt Amps.

    The size of the wires between batteries depends on the maximum current you expect to draw from the batteries. The current draw will be the same on all connectors. 2 AWG is good for up to about 130 Amps, which is around 1500 Watts on 12 Volts. It's 3000 Watts on 24, btw.


    @ solarvic.. I will see whats available on Monday.. the extra $20/panel is kinda a turn off.. I may do 5 total for 725 and that way I am within the MS quoted specs with the panel array.. I can take the saved $140 from panel #6 and get the meter front for the TS45 I have..

    BACK ON TOPIC..

    I may looking into the 6v batteries again (there $136 at NAPA each so that would $500 for the 440 bank).... but for a quick setup I'm going for 2-3 of the $70/each Maxx 29 Marine batteries.. I could run the batteries to a terminal lug block if that would make grouing this parallel mess easier..

    It would be 2 13w CFLs.. your correct on that.. I may only need 1 at night for the small 12x24 cabin but 2 will be in the building in fixtures..

    The 2 AWG wire should be ok then as my watts will be mostly low minus that surge for that A/C thing..

    I want to stick with 12v as the inverter is $300-400 cheaper for the 12V SW2000 Xantrex over the same 2K watt Samlex/Cotek..

    So what size bank should I be seeking for that 2 day draw if I had no sun??
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    The right way to get a "two day" battery bank is to size it for 25% DOD under normal circumstances. Then you can take it down to 50% DOD if you need to. If you double the battery bank size you need to double the array size to recharge it. What you really do not want to do is have a 5% maximum charge rate on a battery bank that's 50% depleted already. Very bad situation, that.

    So you work out how many Watts everything you want to run is. Then you determine how many hours per day you want to run them. That gives you your AC load Watt hour rating. Factor this by the inverter efficiency (which is usually less on average than they claim. 90% is not unreasonable, 85% is usually a sure thing). Then you have the DC Watt hour rating for loads. Add in the amount of power the inverter itself will use. This is important as it can be a lot of power! My Outback sucks down 20 Watts and over 24 hours that's another 480 Watt hours which is no small amount of energy!

    Now you have a big, scary DC Watt hour number and are wishing Bill Gates was your uncle. Divide the number by system Voltage and you have a pretty good idea how many Amp hours will be required to supply that power. No, the numbers are not exact. They are close, but Peukart sticks his finger in and so does Fahrenheit and a couple other fellas and they all take their percentage just like the tax man.

    When you finally get past my silliness and have a number for Amp hours you multiply that by 4 to get a battery bank that will work as mentioned in paragraph #1 of this post. Round up to the nearest available size. You can round down, but you'd better be prepared to leave the lights off. This end battery bank is what you should base the panel capacity on.

    That's probably enough allegorical mathematics for today. :D
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    Panel specs are 18.7VMP at 7.75IMP, 6x7.75= 46.5 amps, I would not worry at all on 45 amp CC doubt you'll ever get too close.

    You know most people here have suggested running a 24v system. At 24v you would only be at 23.25A...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    So if I figure I needed to draw 220 AH per day (with the A/C running)..
    I would need 440 ah to be at 50% DOD with that 220 ah draw..

    For 2 days of no sun I would need 440ah of draw.. I would need a 880ah bank... and still be at that 50% DOD..

    How hard can it be to put 7-8 batteries in a row.. LoL

    Even if I switched to 24v I would still need the same 880ah bank.. unless I missed something.. AC is AC and DC is DC..

    Maybe I'll stick with 3 batteries (and 345ah) and use that 5 batteries worth of funds and buy a small genny for like $350.. that would also let me charge the bank and have a backup plan.... hmmm..
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??
    ywhic wrote: »
    but for a quick setup I'm going for 2-3 of the $70/each Maxx 29 Marine batteries.. I could run the batteries to a terminal lug block if that would make grouing this parallel mess easier...

    I hope someone here has discribed these as a complete waste of money.

    You can't fly all the way to your cabin, can't you pickup batteries where your flying in and transport them to your cabin?
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    It works like this:

    220 Amp hours per day @ 12 VDC = 2640 DC Watt hours.
    At 25% DOD you would have an 880 Amp hour battery bank, requiring 88 Amps of current (whoops! Two charge controllers) and a 1371+ Watt array.
    Your normal DOD would be 25%; only on that extra cloudy day would you be going down to 50%.

    Now consider the same 2640 DC Watt hours on 24 VDC: 110 Amp hours.
    At 25% DOD you would have a 440 Amp hour battery bank, requiring 44 Amps of current (one charge controller) and the same 1371+ Watt array.

    See how the 24 Volt system starts showing its advantages? Although you would have the same number of batteries, because you need twice as many to make 24 Volts as you do 12. But you have decreased the current, left off one charge controller, and improved system efficiency by at least 1%. To say nothing of the fact that heavier loads (like, say, air conditioning) will not put as much stress on the battery bank from high current draws.

    The above calculations are based on an MPPT type controller, btw.
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    Someone stated they won't last long if you beat them up..

    I'll be flying into ELP and theres a Batteries plus with some 225 AH rated 6v batteries for the same $130-145 each.

    Maybe 1 starter bank of just 225ah for $280 would be a more wiser move from the gate.. I dunno... I'd imagine by next spring I'll have proper funds to do that part right.. be a darn shame to mess up the decent plan I've been working on..
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    The Marine/RV batteries, in my experience, will be doing good to last half as long as the golf cart batteries. About three years.

    Do you want to spend your money twice? That's what happens when you buy the wrong stuff the first time.

    You could get two golf cart batteries now, treat them well, and add two more in a year without much difference. (Treat them badly and they can be ruined in a year).

    If you could buy four now ... you're at 24 Volts. You just need the right inverter.

    Okay: end of lecture.
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??
    It works like this:

    220 Amp hours per day @ 12 VDC = 2640 DC Watt hours.
    At 25% DOD you would have an 880 Amp hour battery bank, requiring 88 Amps of current (whoops! Two charge controllers) and a 1371+ Watt array.
    Your normal DOD would be 25%; only on that extra cloudy day would you be going down to 50%.

    Now consider the same 2640 DC Watt hours on 24 VDC: 110 Amp hours.
    At 25% DOD you would have a 440 Amp hour battery bank, requiring 44 Amps of current (one charge controller) and the same 1371+ Watt array.

    See how the 24 Volt system starts showing its advantages? Although you would have the same number of batteries, because you need twice as many to make 24 Volts as you do 12. But you have decreased the current, left off one charge controller, and improved system efficiency by at least 1%. To say nothing of the fact that heavier loads (like, say, air conditioning) will not put as much stress on the battery bank from high current draws.

    The above calculations are based on an MPPT type controller, btw.

    Ok..

    Now based on a 725 watt system with 558 watts (@ 77%).. I'd be feeding the bank on a good day 2791 watts..

    If running the 870 watt system with 669 watts (@ 77%).. I'd be feeding the bank on a good day 3349 watts..

    Can I safely feed the 440ah or 880ah banks if needed from either scenerio..??

    I figured I'd put back in 35 amps / hour with the 725 (5 panels).. and 42 amps / hour back in with the 87- (6 panels)..

    It looks like 175 amps and 210 amps back into the bank respectively.. unless I'm totally off with the numbers..

    Looks like I can replace the 200 amps I'd use in 1 day on both but I am not sure..
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    Treat a set if batteries poorly,, and you can kill them in a matter of weeks!

    Tony
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    What you "feed" to the battery bank depends not only on the size of the array, but also on how much the battery bank "needs" (state of charge). Once it is full, the panel power potential is not realized without additional loads.

    This is why there's the quick Icarus formula for determining potential AC Watt hours based on array size alone:
    Nameplate rating of array size * hours of equivalent good sun * 52% over-all system efficiency.
    With 725 Watts and 4 hours minimum you get 1508 AC Watt hours.

    This gets checked against the size of the battery bank that 725 Watt array can recharge @ the 10% rate (usually), which in this case is 387 Amp hours. That size battery bank at 25% DOD should supply about 1 kW hour AC. This is good to have more panel Watt hour capacity than battery Watt hour capacity: it means you'll be able to recharge from greater than 25% DOD and that you'll get something on cloudy days, even if not much. Then on sunny days you have a potential surplus of power.

    You can also check to see what the maximum current works out to be in terms of percentage charge rate on different battery banks: peak current * 100 / battery bank capacity. For 38.7 Amps you get 8.8% on 440 or 4.4% on 880. So it would work on the 440 bank but not on the 880 one. You would have about 1.1 kW hours AC from the 440 bank @ 25% DOD, so it would still work for recharging.

    Remember that all the numbers and calculations are relative guidelines, not absolute facts. The sun does not shine the same every day and that will have a big effect on how well your system performs. More so than almost anything else (other than completely mis-designing it).
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??
    What you "feed" to the battery bank depends not only on the size of the array, but also on how much the battery bank "needs" (state of charge). Once it is full, the panel power potential is not realized without additional loads.

    This is why there's the quick Icarus formula for determining potential AC Watt hours based on array size alone:
    Nameplate rating of array size * hours of equivalent good sun * 52% over-all system efficiency.
    With 725 Watts and 4 hours minimum you get 1508 AC Watt hours.

    This gets checked against the size of the battery bank that 725 Watt array can recharge @ the 10% rate (usually), which in this case is 387 Amp hours. That size battery bank at 25% DOD should supply about 1 kW hour AC. This is good to have more panel Watt hour capacity than battery Watt hour capacity: it means you'll be able to recharge from greater than 25% DOD and that you'll get something on cloudy days, even if not much. Then on sunny days you have a potential surplus of power.

    You can also check to see what the maximum current works out to be in terms of percentage charge rate on different battery banks: peak current * 100 / battery bank capacity. For 38.7 Amps you get 8.8% on 440 or 4.4% on 880. So it would work on the 440 bank but not on the 880 one. You would have about 1.1 kW hours AC from the 440 bank @ 25% DOD, so it would still work for recharging.

    Remember that all the numbers and calculations are relative guidelines, not absolute facts. The sun does not shine the same every day and that will have a big effect on how well your system performs. More so than almost anything else (other than completely mis-designing it).

    So at 725 watts of PV basically.. I could go with 660ah on the battery bank and be at 5.8%.. that wouldn't be good either..

    The 870 watts of PV would be 1809 AC watt hours.. now I got lost after that.. would that work decent on a 660ah battery idea??

    ETA: I ordered 1 more panel for 725 watts total PV.. DM emailed me to tell me Amazon only has 40 left out of 440 from last Wed.. I'll call Amazon Monday and force the card after there other crap they tied me up with clears off.. he did say they should have another batch in later in the month..
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??
    ywhic wrote: »
    So at 725 watts of PV basically.. I could go with 660ah on the battery bank and be at 5.8%.. that wouldn't be good either..

    No that would not be good. Too close to the edge to be comfortable. Even slightly cloudy day ... insufficient charging
    The 870 watts of PV would be 1809 AC watt hours.. now I got lost after that.. would that work decent on a 660ah battery idea??

    Through the PWM controller where you get 45 Amps peak current? 45 * 100 / 660 = 6.8% peak charge rate. Again a bit slim, especially after you consider that any loads operating at the same time will detract from that.

    Now put that 870 Watts through an MPPT controller and you get 55 Amps (the MPPT advantage) * 100 / 660 = 8.3%. That one works better.

    Again this is all just comparative. You have to always "round in the right direction". Assume loads will be greater than expected, battery capacity less than rated (they do go down over time; something that doesn't get mentioned often enough around here), and panel output will only be at its best when the sun shines fully.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??

    Might call Costco ElPaso Check to see if they have 6V golf cart batteries, normally @$80 each. There is also a Sams club.

    Here's a possible way around a membership or one day pass;

    There is also a Sams club in El Paso.

    Please, understand that 'splashing the water' is an OK way of getting information if your listening, but it is also a fine way of alienating people, I think all of this thread has been covered with you in answers to your questions.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??
    Photowhit wrote: »
    Please, understand that 'splashing the water' is an OK way of getting information if your listening, but it is also a fine way of alienating people, I think all of this thread has been covered with you in answers to your questions.
    One thing for sure, it's been entertaining and it's come full circle after many false starts. Not that anyone on here would tell someone how to spend their money.

    Me, I spent $41,000 last year on Solar, I am laying low this year.
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Battery Bank for my 12v system??
    Photowhit wrote: »
    Might call Costco ElPaso Check to see if they have 6V golf cart batteries, normally @$80 each. There is also a Sams club.

    Here's a possible way around a membership or one day pass;

    There is also a Sams club in El Paso.

    Please, understand that 'splashing the water' is an OK way of getting information if your listening, but it is also a fine way of alienating people, I think all of this thread has been covered with you in answers to your questions.

    I hear you.. I appreciate the help from all..

    I will be checking the battery issue come spring when I have funds.. then $500-600 for 4 6v good batteries (and 440ah that way) will outweigh my $250 quick fix with less quality and less AH..