Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?

Windarra
Windarra Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
Good morning folks,
Thanks again for all of the great information here, I'm having a great time reading through the forums and trying to learn very quickly, our solar install has been a crash course in installation, Ohm's Law, electrical budgeting, and even more so check book balancing :blush:
Anyway, another question for you fine folks, since I'm now second guessing our choice in charge controller. First the basics...

Completely off grid (boat) installation
ah per day(24 hours) needed will vary from 110ah minimum to 215ah max
we've installed 6 Batteries - Lifeline GPL-4CT series/parallel for a 12 volt 660 ah bank (330 useable)
4 Sharp ND-U230Q1BX 230W 24V Solar Panels (http://www.solarblvd.com/p2589/Sharp-ND-U230Q1BX-230W-24V-Solar-Panel---10-Panels/product_info.html ) series parallel again for 48 volts to the CC
Morningstar MPPT60

First question, the lifelines can take a ridiculous amount of charging amps (550 per), yet the Morningstar is limited to 60, any input as to whether this will help/hurt the charging process?

Second question, since the Morningstar really has no idea of the true battery capacity beyond what the sense inputs for the battery voltage tells it, are we really charging these batteries efficiently?

And lastly, is something I don't quite "get". The Morningstar is set to go into an aborb stage for a set amount of time at a certain voltage level (in this case, Lifeline recommends 14.2-14.6)....without really of an idea how deeply discharged the batteries are, or not. Will we need to manually monitor these times calibrating for current sun conditions, state of discharge from the previous night, etc??

Is there a "smarter" charge controller out there that integrates battery monitoring into their MPPT charge controller and adjusts accordingly?

Thanks again,
M/V Windarra
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Comments

  • Windarra
    Windarra Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭
    #2
    Re: Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?

    And if this has any relevance....we're still trying to figure out the best way to maybe get some hot water. From what I understand the non-MPPT controllers would divert extra juice if set up to a dump load (water tank heater for example). But I don't see any way to integrate that with our current set up...
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?
    Windarra wrote: »
    First question, the lifelines can take a ridiculous amount of charging amps (550 per), yet the Morningstar is limited to 60, any input as to whether this will help/hurt the charging process?
    Lower amps just takes longer to charge. The morningstar is limited to 60, but your panels couldn't provide much more than that anyway.
    Windarra wrote: »
    Second question, since the Morningstar really has no idea of the true battery capacity beyond what the sense inputs for the battery voltage tells it, are we really charging these batteries efficiently?
    No problem. Virtually all controllers work that way.
    Windarra wrote: »
    And lastly, is something I don't quite "get". The Morningstar is set to go into an aborb stage for a set amount of time at a certain voltage level (in this case, Lifeline recommends 14.2-14.6)....without really of an idea how deeply discharged the batteries are, or not. Will we need to manually monitor these times calibrating for current sun conditions, state of discharge from the previous night, etc??
    There's not much you can do, especially with AGM batteries. With flooded batteries you could check specific gravity. Some controllers vary the amount of absorb time by the amount of time in bulk. The best way is to terminate absorb by 'end amps'. I don't know if the morningstar supports that.
    Windarra wrote: »
    Is there a "smarter" charge controller out there that integrates battery monitoring into their MPPT charge controller and adjusts accordingly?
    I believe the Outback can do that if you use their Flexnet DC monitor. Midnite has been hinting on their forum that they will soon have such a system also.
    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #4
    Re: Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?
    Windarra wrote: »
    Good morning folks,
    First question, the lifelines can take a ridiculous amount of charging amps (550 per), yet the Morningstar is limited to 60, any input as to whether this will help/hurt the charging process?

    Slower charging is generally better because it generates less heat. You have 4 x 230W = 920W idealistically available from your panels, which at 12V (i.e. a deeply discharged battery) = 76A and at 14V = 65A. So you will be loosing some charging capacity when the battery is deeply discharged. I'd say the controller is a bit undersized. Since you have an MPPT controller and enough panels, would it be possible to rewire the system to 24V instead? Alternatively, if you want to stay at 12V then consider, either an additional controller- or replace the existing controller with a bigger model. Both Outback and midnite solar do 80+ A models. Both of those controllers also have relays built in which will solve your other problem of switching on optional loads when the batteries are charged.
    Windarra wrote: »
    Second question, since the Morningstar really has no idea of the true battery capacity beyond what the sense inputs for the battery voltage tells it, are we really charging these batteries efficiently?

    Not sure what you mean by "efficiently" ? As with the previous answer, you're wasting some charging capacity because of the 60A limit.
    Windarra wrote: »
    And lastly, is something I don't quite "get". The Morningstar is set to go into an aborb stage for a set amount of time at a certain voltage level (in this case, Lifeline recommends 14.2-14.6)....without really of an idea how deeply discharged the batteries are, or not. Will we need to manually monitor these times calibrating for current sun conditions, state of discharge from the previous night, etc??

    Yaaaa, this is one my bugbears with the morningstar unit too. The outback and midnite units have a feature called "end amps" which will stop the absorb based on the current going into the battery. Since the MS unit uses a fixed time, what I've done is calibrated this once for summer and once for winter. There are actually 2 related settings, which while not quite as granular as the "end amps" of the other units, can provide some more variation to the absorb time:
    - Float cancel voltage (or something like that): If the battery dips below this voltage then don't enter float the following day- keep the controller in absorb. Useful for recharging from deep discharges.
    - Absorb extension voltage: If the battery dips below this voltage then extend the absorb time by this amount. Useful for an in-between medium and deep discharge.

    If you have the option of changing the controller, I'd go with the Midnite unit- has all the bells and whistles and good technical support.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?

    The morningstar software program (free MS View) will allow you to via the serial port, modify the voltages and absorb times to whatever you wish (within reason) I've had to "tweak" mine to accomadate my NiFe battery bank. Very easy to do via serial port / quality Serial/USB converter. (I use edgeport)

    http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/support/item.cfm?ItemId=400 MS view home page.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?

    "And lastly, is something I don't quite "get". The Morningstar is set to go into an aborb stage for a set amount of time at a certain voltage level (in this case, Lifeline recommends 14.2-14.6)....without really of an idea how deeply discharged the batteries are, or not."

    the bulk stage is what charges the bulk of the battery, pun intended, not the absorb stage. it does not hit the prescribed absorb voltage until the charge into the battery has reached that level so in a sense the batteries determine the amount of charge it receives before it hits absorb. the absorb stage is the top off stage of the final 10-20% of the charge and usually does not change much in its requirements no matter how much you've depleted the battery, unless the battery has aged some and needs a bit more time or you did not drain much from the battery in the first place.
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  • Windarra
    Windarra Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭
    #7
    Re: Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?
    stephendv wrote: »
    Slower charging is generally better because it generates less heat. You have 4 x 230W = 920W idealistically available from your panels, which at 12V (i.e. a deeply discharged battery) = 76A and at 14V = 65A. So you will be loosing some charging capacity when the battery is deeply discharged. I'd say the controller is a bit undersized. Since you have an MPPT controller and enough panels, would it be possible to rewire the system to 24V instead? Alternatively, if you want to stay at 12V then consider, either an additional controller- or replace the existing controller with a bigger model. Both Outback and midnite solar do 80+ A models. Both of those controllers also have relays built in which will solve your other problem of switching on optional loads when the batteries are charged.

    I think the Morningstar has an additional relay that can be wired in as well, maybe I should investigate that, but I think it just turns a coil/switch on/off, will need to ponder more how to get it to actually divert...thanks for the idea!


    stephendv wrote: »
    Not sure what you mean by "efficiently" ? As with the previous answer, you're wasting some charging capacity because of the 60A limit.



    Yaaaa, this is one my bugbears with the morningstar unit too. The outback and midnite units have a feature called "end amps" which will stop the absorb based on the current going into the battery. Since the MS unit uses a fixed time, what I've done is calibrated this once for summer and once for winter. There are actually 2 related settings, which while not quite as granular as the "end amps" of the other units, can provide some more variation to the absorb time:
    - Float cancel voltage (or something like that): If the battery dips below this voltage then don't enter float the following day- keep the controller in absorb. Useful for recharging from deep discharges.
    - Absorb extension voltage: If the battery dips below this voltage then extend the absorb time by this amount. Useful for an in-between medium and deep discharge.

    If you have the option of changing the controller, I'd go with the Midnite unit- has all the bells and whistles and good technical support.

    Another great idea...I did see those settings, and wasn't quite sure what they were, will look into that one more as well...Great!!
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  • Windarra
    Windarra Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭
    #8
    Re: Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Lower amps just takes longer to charge. The morningstar is limited to 60, but your panels couldn't provide much more than that anyway.


    No problem. Virtually all controllers work that way.


    There's not much you can do, especially with AGM batteries. With flooded batteries you could check specific gravity. Some controllers vary the amount of absorb time by the amount of time in bulk. The best way is to terminate absorb by 'end amps'. I don't know if the morningstar supports that.


    I believe the Outback can do that if you use their Flexnet DC monitor. Midnite has been hinting on their forum that they will soon have such a system also.
    --vtMaps


    I did just check out that Outback...looks like the DC monitor will do exactly that - monitor, and utilize the same display as the main unit, but if I'm reading it correctly, doesn't actually integrate that information into the functionality of the controller itself, only the display. I did get a Xantrex LinkPro to monitor battery amp usage, (not hooked up yet), but was curious to see if there was anything else out there that actually would take that battery usage and recalculate charging needs accordingly.
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  • Windarra
    Windarra Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭
    #9
    Re: Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?
    mike90045 wrote: »
    The morningstar software program (free MS View) will allow you to via the serial port, modify the voltages and absorb times to whatever you wish (within reason) I've had to "tweak" mine to accomadate my NiFe battery bank. Very easy to do via serial port / quality Serial/USB converter. (I use edgeport)

    http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/support/item.cfm?ItemId=400 MS view home page.

    Thanks mike90045, I did finally get it up and running on a network and tweaked the charging settings per Lifeline specs. I've starting to run a logger to play with the data while we're in transition, we're not fully pulling the plug for another few days. I'm trying to figure out now how to log that data remotely so I don't have to leave my entire network (and power hungry computer) up and running to log. Maybe the modem/network hub and hmm....Google is coming up with remote storage, and logging it directly to a "cloud" service would be great, just haven't figured out that hurdle yet. Have you experimented with anything like that?
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  • Windarra
    Windarra Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭
    #10
    Re: Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?
    niel wrote: »
    "And lastly, is something I don't quite "get". The Morningstar is set to go into an aborb stage for a set amount of time at a certain voltage level (in this case, Lifeline recommends 14.2-14.6)....without really of an idea how deeply discharged the batteries are, or not."

    the bulk stage is what charges the bulk of the battery, pun intended, not the absorb stage. it does not hit the prescribed absorb voltage until the charge into the battery has reached that level so in a sense the batteries determine the amount of charge it receives before it hits absorb. the absorb stage is the top off stage of the final 10-20% of the charge and usually does not change much in its requirements no matter how much you've depleted the battery, unless the battery has aged some and needs a bit more time or you did not drain much from the battery in the first place.

    Ok, great. I think that is the piece of the puzzle that I was missing. I was under the impression that the bulk got the levels up, and the absorb was what really put the ah back in. I was concerned about having the absorb time too short/too long depending on how depleted the batteries were from the night before. Weekdays will see little usage, fridge, nav lights, minor lighting, but weekends are when we may go a bit more 'hog wild' with electric usage i.e. TV/Movie time, or 2 hours of running a blender for boat margaritas (ok, maybe not 2 hours...lol)
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?
    stephendv wrote: »
    The outback and midnite units have a feature called "end amps" which will stop the absorb based on the current going into the battery.
    True. However the 'end amps' feature is not reliable on either unit if there are any other charging sources or loads. The controller knows what it is producing and assumes that is what the battery is receiving. (see exception below).
    Windarra wrote: »
    I did just check out that Outback...looks like the DC monitor will do exactly that - monitor, and utilize the same display as the main unit, but if I'm reading it correctly, doesn't actually integrate that information into the functionality of the controller itself, only the display
    Windarra, you're missing something. The Outback unit will do 'end amps' properly if you have he Flexnet DC. Hop on over to the Outback Forum and check out the Flexnet subforum. Midnite is hinting on their forum that they have a similar (or better) system under development.
    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Windarra
    Windarra Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭
    #12
    Re: Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?

    Will do, but what I'm really missing is where the Outback forum is??!! Thanks :)
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?
    Windarra wrote: »
    Will do, but what I'm really missing is where the Outback forum is??!! Thanks :)

    try: http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Charge Controller - Monitoring system combined?

    The morningstar MPPT 60 has a data logger and web server built in, and you can view the data once a week (or upload it, or whatever) here's my data output: http://pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=7947&sid=6430&v=0&t=m
    this was just the shop tools and water pump
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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