Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??

ywhicywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
Anyone try linking there solar panel system to generate more AMPS and then recharge the same batteries??

(aka continuous power)..

Suppose you got a 1000W+ Sine Invertor and your battery bank can handle the 5 amp MAX draw of this motor (1/4hp)... http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Belt-Drive-Motor-3K771?Pid=search

This motor is for BELT systems 8) and runs at max 1725 RPM (max).. (controller needed).

Then you get a 90 Amp 12 v Alternator with voltage regulator built-in.. (or hi-Amp one)...

Apply belt and make a jig..

It would be like a WIND generator hooked to a motor..

Anyone try this??

Comments

  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??

    This is called a perpetual motion device. They do not work. They can not work. Every step of the way where power is transmitted, stored, or changed from one form to another some of that power is lost.
  • ywhicywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??

    Even is you gather say 40 amps into the battery from the alternator??

    You only utilizing 5 amps out of the 115AC end..

    I understand the loss thing.. but charging a bank of batteries and then using 5 amps back out should be able to work..
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??
    ywhic wrote: »
    Even is you gather say 40 amps into the battery from the alternator??

    You only utilizing 5 amps out of the 115AC end..

    I understand the loss thing.. but charging a bank of batteries and then using 5 amps back out should be able to work..

    No, it won't.
    Look at an inverter's specs and you will find an efficiency rating. It will be less than 100%. Likewise with a motor, which can not turn all the electrical energy it uses into equivalent mechanical horsepower. The alternator is the same, only the other-way 'round. And then there is the wiring loss.

    In short, battery runs motor runs generator recharges battery is a closed loop where no power is added but plenty is lost. Add solar panels and the only source of additional power in the circuit is from them. You can use devices after the source to alter the nature of the power, but not to increase it. Such as a transformer reducing 120 VAC to 12 VAC: the Voltage is divided by 10 and the current multiplies by slightly less than (due to efficiency loss of the transformer itself) 10. Discounting the losses, if it's 120 VAC @ 1 Amp in it will be 12 Vac @ 10 Amps out. That's the same amount of power: 120 Watts.

    You don't get 40 Amps @ whatever Voltage out of the alternator without putting the mechanical equivalent plus a bit more in. If you increase the electrical draw on the alternator you will increase the mechanical drag on the motor and thus the electrical draw of the motor. 'Round and 'round in circles, each part of the circuit losing power to heat which radiates into the air. (By heat we don't necessarily mean enough to be noticed by touch, but it is nonetheless there.)
  • ywhicywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??

    What about this.. granted thats a 3000 watt generator..
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??

    People have been trying this in various forms for a thousand years!

    If you don't believe us,, read this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

    Tony
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??
    ywhic wrote: »
    What about this.. granted thats a 3000 watt generator..

    No, what that is is baloney. The size involved is totally irrelevant. There are a lot of faked videos on Youtube; don't trust them as a source of information. Absolutely every circuit, regardless of size or type, has losses. Even the utility grid can lose 50% of the power generated by the time it gets to the end user. There's no free lunch, you can't get something from nothing, et cetera.

    Turn your numbers into Watts, factor in the losses, and see what happens:

    Motor: 5 Amps @ 120 Volts = 580 Watts in. One HP is 746 Watts, 1/4 HP (the motor's mechanical output) is 186 Watts. Does this sound efficient to you?

    Inverter draw to power that would be 580 Watts / 90% (possibly) conversion efficiency + inverter draw: 660 Watts from battery. So already the draw on the battery to produce 1/4 HP is 660 Watts, or an efficiency factor of 28%. That pretty much sucks, doesn't it?

    That much mechanical HP into the alternator (which may be 90% efficient) of 186 Watts ends up as 167 Watts coming out. At 12 Volts that would be roughly 14 Amps, not the 40 it may be capable of (if enough mechanical energy is available to drive it at full load).

    Now back to the inverter, which at 12 Volts is drawing 55 Amps to produce the 660 Watts needed to run it and the motor. That's pretty far off the 14 Amps the alternator is putting out. Net loss: 493 Watts.

    You can adjust the numbers as you like, but since absolutely NONE of the components are 100% efficient, much less greater than that, there is no point of energy gain in a closed-loop system. Adding solar panels to the mix introduces an external source of energy, and makes the rest of the rigamarole irrelevant.

    If you still don't believe me, go ahead and build it. Providing you have nothing better to do with your time and money.
    But don't say I didn't warn you.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??
    ywhic wrote: »
    What about this.. granted thats a 3000 watt generator..

    So if this was true he could get any price for it. So why is he begging donations? Because a donation is just that , not a purchase.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??
    solar_dave wrote: »
    So if this was true he could get any price for it. So why is he begging donations? Because a donation is just that , not a purchase.

    He's begging for donations because he's not stupid, he knows "there's one born every minute", and he's there ready and waiting to reel them in as they come along, then laugh all the way to the bank. Unfortunately some folks, for reasons unknown to us, so desperately WANT to believe the lie, that they'll take the bait in spite of all warnings.
  • john pjohn p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??

    A qiuck look on You Tube will show you dozens of these"perpetual motion machines" all claiming to be better than the rest. But if they so good why they not in production and available in stores.???
    Sme goes for gasoline /petrol/diesel engines that can be run on water or in one case crude oil and another water and battery acid. A rather strange tank full of liquid to put in vehicle.. They nearly say the patents get bought out from the inventors, and thats why they are never bought to commercial success.
    IF there was any inventor that could get a engine to run on water HE WOULD NEVER SELL THAT PATENT he would just licence that to ALL the major car manufactures in the world. You make far more from licencing than selling the idea.
    2 examples
    Dolby was used by millions of casette recorder manufacturers and he only charged 5cents per item manufactured but made millions
    CSIRO in Australia invented Wi Fi and has collected close to one billion dollars from it so far, helped in no small way by an American company made to give them 400 million when they infringed their patent.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??

    Right you are, John!
    I've got a couple of ideas for improved devices ... but strangely you won't find info on them anywhere on the Internet, with or without "give me money for more research" pleas. ;)
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??

    You can run a diesel on crude oil. There are gaswells in my area and I know 3 or 4 people that run crude in thier pickups. They are older trucks that don,t have the recent polution controls. I was even thinking of doing it with my 91 dodge cummins but never did. the ones I know of 2 have dodge cummins and one has a ford. :Dsolarvic:D
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,261 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??

    This is my test for "free power":

    Are there powerlines coming onto the property ? If so, the "free or endless" power does not exist.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to 12v DC to 110AC 1/4hp Motor to Car Alternator for more DC??
    solarvic wrote: »
    You can run a diesel on crude oil. There are gaswells in my area and I know 3 or 4 people that run crude in thier pickups. They are older trucks that don,t have the recent polution controls. I was even thinking of doing it with my 91 dodge cummins but never did. the ones I know of 2 have dodge cummins and one has a ford. :Dsolarvic:D

    I had a buddy that worked at the Denver airport, they all ran there diesel trucks off Jet A from the water traps on the fueling systems, some added some motor oil to it just to make sure the pump got some lube, others cut the diesel 50/50 with Jet A.
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