CPAP Backup

ebbe · March 2012

Hi everyone - I am new to this - in fact - not even sure I am posting this to the correct place - but I was hoping someone would be able to help me. My brother has a CPAP machine that he would literally die without. He has to use it every time he sleeps. I am looking for a back-up system for him to power it in case the grid ever fails. I know this sounds crazy - but I want him to be prepared just in case something like that could really happen. I don't know where to start - and we don't have a lot of money so I don't want to get ripped off. He has a generator but I want him to have solar also in case gas supplies get cut off. any idea?

niel · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

hi ebbe and welcome,
i moved your inquiry to its own thread as i thought it warranted it.

i do want to ask if this also involves oxygen or any other stuff to be run on electric?

i would like some info on the power requirements the cpap needs and if you don't have a power monitor like the kilawatt then it should be stated on the cpap machine the vac and current and it may even state the wattage, which is what we really need to know. in addition we would need to know how many hours this will run for typically or even maximally so we can more readily determine battery capacity. i would also advise being able to go at least 2 days, but you may even want it to be capable of 3 days without exceeding the battery depth of discharge of 50% for better battery life.

now if you want this automatically to switch over during an outage it would become more expensive, but if it's that vital then i would suggest an inverter with autoswitching and even a built in charger, but these features are usually on higher wattage inverters. my magnum mms1012 is such an example and its wattage would be way overkill for what you describe and will most likely will need. some cpap machines are also able to operate on 12vdc directly, but this would entail an automatic charger and it would possibly cycle the batteries more often and could be a bit more hands on.

ebbe · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

Thanks so much for the quick response - he is getting a new cpap machine so I will have to ask what kind and see if I can find the specs. I will be back as soon as I can. I work in the medical field and more and more people are on these machines - my husband who is 6'2" and thin as can be also uses one, but it isn't as critical for him. There must be a real need for this - especially for areas in the country where power goes out and during ice storms can be out for days. I really appreciate the help - talk with you soon

mike95490 · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

For my camping ( and power fail backup in Los Angeles ) I have a properly sized "Jump Start Power Pack". I'd used a kill-a-watt meter to measure the power consumed, and located a $80 car starter battery pack that has a cigar lighter socket on it. And my CPAP 12V dc power cord plugs right into it. Different machines will need different sized battery pack, and heaters and humidifiers can't be used - they draw too much power. But the new machines are pretty efficient.

niel · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

i forgot about the humidifier and you're right that it would draw quite a bit. you can still fill the humidifier with water, but shut down the power to heat it and the air flow going by the water will pick up a tad of humidity. i do that sometimes.

yes, i have one as well, but my life isn't quite in the balance without it, but my general health is improved with it.

ebbe · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

My thought is that if the grid ever goes down for a long period of time and there is a gas shortage - we are in trouble. That is why I have been trying to figure out if I bought some solar panels and hooked them up to a marine battery during the day - if that would work. My problem is that I know nothing about panels or marine batteries. What kind to get - how long do they last - do i buy extra solar panels and batteries if the first grouping gets old and how long do they last. I thought there must be some company that works on this for "medical devices" or if there isn't - wow - that would be the business to get into. people may not care about going green but they will care about a back-up plan for their loved ones. Does anyone know some college kid who could work up something that people could purchase? Someone who knows how to explain it to dummies?????? It would be a great start-up business

mike95490 · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

ebbe wrote: »

My thought is that if the grid ever goes down for a long period of time and there is a gas shortage - we are in trouble. That is why I have been trying to figure out if I bought some solar panels and hooked them up to a marine battery during the day - if that would work. My problem is that I know nothing about panels or marine batteries. What kind to get - how long do they last - do i buy extra solar panels and batteries if the first grouping gets old and how long do they last. I thought there must be some company that works on this for "medical devices" or if there isn't - wow - that would be the business to get into. people may not care about going green but they will care about a back-up plan for their loved ones. Does anyone know some college kid who could work up something that people could purchase? Someone who knows how to explain it to dummies?????? It would be a great start-up business

Take a look at the first couple posts on this thread: (regarding my monolith)
http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?5556-Working-Thread-for-Solar-Beginner-Post-FAQ/page2&p=61485#post61485

Monolith - That's my last ditch CPAP backup plan. Sadly, after 5 years, I'd expect the "marine" battery I use, to fail. (and fiilters, masks....) Then I have no nighttime power. I figure my 60W panel will, in my climate, keep the battery charged, and running, even with a couple cloudy days. Getting distilled water for the battery will also be a challange too.

niel · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

there may very well be people out there doing back up systems for medical equipment and you can make inquiries at local hospitals if they know of somebody doing this, but i suspect that on the small scale you are looking at they may tell you it isn't worth the time to consider it. it most likely will be far more expensive going the medical route, but if you are under social security you can inquire if this could be covered as it is a life or death circumstance. they also may tell you to go to a computer backups, but they are mostly modified sine wave and would not be good to run your cpap with. it should be a sine wave inverter. the better quality inverters with all of the simplifying bells and whistles you may want are in the 1000w class and up and is way overkill for just a cpap. a smaller system can be derived if one has some ability to piece together things and from how you talk it may not even be good for the more simplistic higher wattage inverters for you to attempt on your own. it may be a good idea for you to locate a solar installer near you and discuss with him what you have in mind and he will have the ability to get it wired up correctly and inspected. i would insist on the agm style battery for yourself too just because of the low maintenance these batteries can have. do ask of typical battery life and you can either change out the battery at intervals like the cell phone industry does or learn to watch for your battery's care and maintenence.

also note that you can get the backups for the cpap put in without solar too and just have a battery or battery bank with the capacity to last the number of days of operation you would specify without allowing the batteries to drop below 50% dod for you never want to drain your batteries all of the way or you will deplete them of some or all of their operating life. in many cases solar can also be added later if you would suspect a need to have an independent charging source or have it put in to start with if you feel a few days may not be enough backup time. if social security does cover any of this please let us know and what the determining factors were for qualification as well as to what end things are to be covered for they may for example allow the backups system, but may not cover the added solar charging. even the people you talk to that are leads the hospital may refer you to may be able to skim over some of this. try your cpap provider as well, but i suspect they may not know.

peakbagger · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

Something to consider would be a xantrex 1500 power pack. I believe they are set up so that a solar panel can be tied to them. It comes all assembled with a battery, charger and inverter plus the wiring, battey case and handcart. I dont know what the power demand for a CPAP is so you would have to check the battery capacity.

westbranch · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

You might find some ideas in this thread. A similar medical related issue, but a much more complex solution due to the 24/7 needs of the user.

http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?11455-Wanted-to-Share-an-Interesting-Project-Looking-for-Input-Advice-amp-Feedback

HTH

niel · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

to give you guys an idea of how little is drawn i measured mine with a killawatt meter.
i have an older donated respironics and it does state 12vdc operation at 3a, but i do not have any idea of the connections and use for this as it did not come complete and new.

the following is at 125vac,
on standby (just plugged in) it drew 2w or 16va
operating it drew 12w (33w surge) or 22va (40va surge)

i also measured my humidifier which is a fisher and paykel model hc100.
on standby (on but not heating) it drew 3w with the va the same as the wattage.
operating it drew 96w or 96va.

add the 2 together if running both cpap and humidifier.

note that with really high pressures i would imagine the draw on the cpap to be a bit more, but how much more i don't know.

peakbagger · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

I have a nearly brand new one that I just stashed into long term storage. I suppose I could drag it out and test it but it just irks me that I went through all the testing for a sleep disorder and it turned out that I had a rare side effect from Lipitor.

ebbe · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

you guys have been wonderful - this is the first time I have tried to post on one of these sites and I can't thank you enough - Now I will have to digest all this and figure out what I should start trying.

boB · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

I used my CPAP camping once with an OLD Respironics. I ran it off a medium sized car battery and one of those 300 sinewave inverters and after one night, there was plenty of juice left although I connected it to the van to recharge it just in case for the next night.

My newer CPAP has a 12V input and I would not hesitate to use it on the 12V DC connection, which it has. It does have the humidifier (water heater) in it but my old one did not. I bet that with a little bit larger battery, maybe a deep cycle of some kind around the same size, that it would work fine.

I'm sure a solar panel would work just fine for a thing like this, as long as there is some sun. Who wants to go camping in the rain anyway ??

boB

ebbe · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

peakbagger wrote: »

I have a nearly brand new one that I just stashed into long term storage. I suppose I could drag it out and test it but it just irks me that I went through all the testing for a sleep disorder and it turned out that I had a rare side effect from Lipitor.

believe me - you can sell it and get most of your money back!!! try Craigslist. I have actually been buying extras just so my brother has them in case we have problems getting them in the future (never know what insurance will be in the future) or how much these thing will cost in an inflated scenario

Shadowcatcher · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

One thing to remember is that a 12V battery can be be charged from your vehicle by simply 'jumping' them. Those of us with RV's with a deep cycle battery know (hopefully) that simply hooking up a set of jumper cables can quickly charge the deep cycle battery with the vehicle alternator with out having to resort to solar panels etc.

ebbe · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

I got this info from a solar firm - I want to have solar in case there are grid problems (solar flares, etc) thought I would pass it along

I can help you pick a system that is perfect for charging Marine batteries.

The Folding Glass solar panel kits are cheapest are a good value as long as you can handle them with some care so you do not break the glass the solar cells are laminated to. If you just need a system for home use then I would recommend the glass solar panels since they are very easy to tilt towards the sun for peak power output. The folding flexible solar panels usually just lay flat on the ground because they are hard to tilt and this causes the end user to get 50% of the power output vs a solar panel properly tilted towards the sun.

The thin film portable solar panels are much lighter than glass solar panels and are not as fragile but they do come at a higher cost per watt.

I would recommend the following solar panel sizes for recharging a marine battery for a CPAP machine because the machine needs a decent amount of power to run all through the night so you want a good sized panel to generate and store enough power into the battery to run the CPAP all night long.

If Glass solar panels are OK I would go with this panel: http://www.portablesolarpower.biz/collections/portable-solar-panels/products/80w-folding-portable-solar-panel

If you feel that the non glass panels are better I would go with this panel: http://www.portablesolarpower.biz/collections/portable-solar-panels/products/75-watt-hi-efficiency-portable-solar-panels

The only other thing you would need is a Solar Charge Controller that uses MPPT solar tracking technology, this technology basically extracts the maximum amount of power out of the solar panel all day and you end up with up to 30% more power at the end of the day over not this technology. I can provide you with a Solar Charge Controller + all the wiring so all you have to do hook up the system you buy from me to your battery and you will be ready to solar recharge a marine battery every day.

Let me know which panel you think is best and we will go from there. Feel free to call me if you want to talk about this also.

westbranch · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

looks similar to the folding panels Canadian tire sells here for ~$300, inexpensive CC ~ $30, not sure if the Doc Wattson meter is included $70, Tool box ~$30, wirre ~< $30... HMMM

Interesting that hey chose a day with snow still on the ground in full sun so it must have been well below freezing, no wonder they got more output

HTH

BB. · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

Do you want panels to hike with or just pull out from the garage if there is an ice storm/etc. that knocks out your power?

Paying $500-$1,000 for ~80 watts of panels is not worth it unless you really need the portability.

You can get a Kyocera 135 watt panel (about the maximum size that can ship through normal means) for ~$330 plus shipping.

Or you can get a Kyocera 210 watt for ~$355 (plus a lot more expensive shipping)...

In the end, define your needs and do some shopping and comparisons. Some items (large panels, lead acid batteries) are sometimes better purchased locally because of shipping and other issues (flooded cell batteries can slosh out if filled prior to shipping). Check all the prices+shipping+insurance at your front door step.

Also, there are lots of issues to play with... A 135 watt Kyocera is a "12 volt" (Vmp~17.5 volt) solar panel that can work with inexpensive PWM charge controllers. A larger solar panel is, generally, Vmp>>17.5 volts, which requires a much more expensive (and capable) MPPT charge controller ($220-$300 minimum) to "match" the solar panel/array Vmp/Imp to the battery bank's Vbatt/Ibatt requirements.

So, back to the basics, what is it you are looking for? Camping, emergency, long term off grid use, etc...

Also, in our area, when we have storms--We may not get good sun for 1-2 weeks, so solar PV really needs either/both a good battery bank and a good genset...

Regarding the genset, CPAP do not need lots of power. I like to suggest a smaller genset (Honda eu1000i or eu2000i) as they can run for 4-9 hours on a gallon of gas (9 Hours at 400 watts for the eu2000i). They are not cheap (~$1,000 for a eu2000i shipped to your door--but inflation is hitting now--so it may be higher), but there is a big difference between a small genset that needs 1-2 gallons of gas per day vs a 3.5-5+ kW genset that may use a 1/2 gallon to 2 gallons of fuel per hour (even only powering a 400 watt load).

If you want to stage the costs out, I would suggest:

1. Battery bank + Inverter + Charger (or Inverter/Charger) ~3-6 days of battery (perhaps without humidifier)
2. Genset for backup power + fuel ~10 days to two weeks
3. Solar Array (as best you can justify)

If you get an inverter/charger--You are basically making a large UPS system. Power goes out and the inverter flips from AC mains to battery backup (with its own transfer switch).

But all this depends on having accurate power requirements, hours per day (peak watts, average watts, and Watt*Hour per day) to ensure that you get something sized to his needs (also question of AC or DC powered devices).

-Bill

techntrek · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

Shadowcatcher wrote: »

One thing to remember is that a 12V battery can be be charged from your vehicle by simply 'jumping' them. Those of us with RV's with a deep cycle battery know (hopefully) that simply hooking up a set of jumper cables can quickly charge the deep cycle battery with the vehicle alternator with out having to resort to solar panels etc.

Very true, 30 minutes with the engine running every 2-3 days (after it gets down to 50% so it accepts a large charge) will do the job, but don't try to tell that to people on a camping forum. One one forum I visit there are a few of us that present that as an option instead of lugging around a generator or 2nd battery - one guy even measured the current to prove it was a viable option. Yet there are many that always come out of the woodwork saying it won't work. ;-)

niel · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

boB was the one who brought up about camping and not ebbe. ebbe is just worried that an outage can endanger ebbe's brother that needs the cpap to a life or death point and does not want to be without power for the cpap due to an outage.

my summary of the situation is as follows.
a backups is basically wanted, but not to be so cheap as to be like for many pcs and must be able to deliver quality power for longer timeperiods to accommodate sleeping times. it is not a high consumption item so it is not warranted for larger inverters just to get their simplified all in one bells and whistles and ebbe lacks the knowledge and experience for piecing together a smaller viable system let alone the larger ones with the stuff needed that is built into them like the charger and autotransfer switching.

Blackcherry04 · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

I would get a correctly sized APC, UPS system and plan on about 8 hours of use and then a evacuation plan. The other option is to sleep sitting up in a chair / recliner and Sleep Apena will almost disappear.

http://www.apc.com/products/category.cfm?id=13

niel · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

blackcherry04,
so which one of those backups are you recommending to ebbe?

Blackcherry04 · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

niel wrote: »

blackcherry04,
so which one of those backups are you recommending to ebbe?

Maybe I missed it, I never saw the power requirement ?? Most of the Big Box Stores, Staples, Office Depot, have a couple different sized units. I manufactured Veterinary Anesthesia for years and found them to be reliable backups, We mounted one right on the cart. I saw someone posted they have a 12 V capability and there you could have a backup cord with battery clips and use 12 v if necessary.

This one would probably run it for a day or more $159.00

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=apc+ups&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=6454989848461428166&sa=X&ei=FXVWT-r0IMHx0gG96tiBCg&ved=0CL0BEPMCMAY

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BR1500G

niel · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

i am assuming 120vac is required by the brother's cpap machine as ebbe is from the states and not europe if that's what you're thinking.

the battery would not be a good idea for everyday use as sooner or later it will be depleted of capacity or fail. it would be good to use after a solar flare or something like that if the cpap machine can use 12v and we don't know that it can. we also don't know if oxygen will be present as i would not want to chance a battery being anywhere near that oxygen.

as it is they would need a small inverter and i'd say a pure sine wave in the area of 200w to 300w for added buffering and not run the inverter at max. they would also want a 3 stage charger of the appropriate current ratings, an automatic transfer switch, and a reliable battery of the proper capacity to operate for several days and not go below 50% dod. plus odds and ends like wiring, breakers, etc. we can piece this together, but ebbe indicated they haven't any knowledge of being able to do this on their own. the simpler all in one inverters that have this built in are higher wattage and a larger unnecessary expense and may still be beyond their ability to put in even if they opted to go with it.

now apc may have something appropriate, but i don't know. do you know of something suitable for this application?

Blackcherry04 · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

Whatever works. The automatic switch over is where I was thinking with a UPS system. Oxygen might be a problem if it was in constant use. The switch over could be done with components as you suggested. Anyway, that was my .02 and choice.

ebbe · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

I wish I could meet all of you - as a woman who has a post grad degree - I feel really really stupid. I am in awe of your knowledge!! and it confirms my belief that there is good in this world. I still don't have the answer as to the type of battery his cpap will run on - he is still working with the physician on which one to get - his old one could not run on a battery. He does not need oxygen. I can't thank all of you enough - as soon as I get the info from him - I will start trying to put this all together and make come purchases. Buying close to home is a great suggestion - one I should have thought of - again - thank you all

westbranch · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

Before you buy come back for a review of what you have decided on...

niel · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

the physician may or may not be familiar with all cpap machines or the options available to them, but there will probably be a medical supply house he'll be getting it from and they would have a better idea of the options for him. do get the humidifier too.

Blackcherry04 · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

I am going to add one more UPS to the mix if a True Sine Wave output is of more interest. Most of these UPS's seem to use 12V batteries, it looks like you could easily parallel some extra capacity on them. I ordered one of these to play with, let you know how it works out. On the other hand if a CPAP will work without power conversion, thats the way to go.

I'd still think that a automatic switchover would be of interest.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=true+sine+wave+ups&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=16424205464962106824&sa=X&ei=sItWT6uaGeXo0QHA4qm6Cg&ved=0CH8Q8wIwAQ

ebbe · March 2012

Re: CPAP Backup

Hi - back again with a quick question not related to the cpap - (my husband has been teasing me about becoming a "prepper" because I am coming across so many articles and they just keep leading me to more info) What I don't understand is why people are creating these battery banks. If I understand this correctly - a battery life is about 5 years. So why go through all that expense on something that will not be of use in 5 years and may not be able to get replacements? Am I missing something? It does scare me that anything I set up will only be useful for 5 years. Yes, I guess I am sounding like a prep per

CPAP Backup

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