AGM charging and EQ charging

ThomasThomas Solar Expert Posts: 291
I finally found the data sheets on my batteries and set voltage points accordingly within the limits.13.8v float and 14.4 bulk. Can I Equalize charge my batteries. The charge is +1v for two hours. Would it be better to perform this function after setting the point BACK 1v then initiate for two hours. I think this might calibrate multiple batteries, I have noticed varying voltages at different terminals. Also, I have fused ,switched and connected a desulphator I plan to use.
Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

Comments

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    thomas,
    i would not normally recommend eqing agm batteries. why do you want to do this?
  • ShadowcatcherShadowcatcher Solar Expert Posts: 228 ✭✭✭
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    I had a fairly long conversation with a Concord/Lifeline engineer a couple of years back concerning the Progressive Dynamics converter putting out 14.4V for 15 min every 24 hrs and he indicated that they loved this as it ensured the battery actually reached full charge. I can not speak for other AGM's. There is however no need to equalize because the acid is captured.
  • ThomasThomas Solar Expert Posts: 291
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    Hello. The reasons that I want to eqcharge my batteries are really not all that complicated. I noticed that the battery average, running my gti, is only 13v, I don't know but I think this is low. The batterys charge all day(while I am waiting for a relay contactor) at 14.4 bulk and 13.8 float and when the sun goes down the voltage drops to 13. I am thinking that if I start eq charging monthly that the end(and probobly usage)voltage may raise a little bit. I also think that monthly eqcharging may allign the batteries '...making them one with thier universe...", I noticed voltage differences at different posts. Maybee over some time this differentiation can be nominalized. I think a good thing to find out about AGM batteries in relation to eqcharging is the interior plates, some are solid, some grated, etc., this could make a difference in appropriateness of eqcharging.
    I meant to ask before..how can I determine if the vents are loosing water?
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    i am not familiar with what batteries you have, but there may be something else going on if there are voltage differences occurring. it could be battery connections or if in parallel then the gauge of wire could be too small in addition to the connections being possibly bad. if you are gt then are you using the stated 35a batteries you site in your signature line because if so you need to up the capacity imho?

    i still don't recommend you eqing your agm batteries just yet as i view that as a last ditch effort to correct older agms and can ruin good agm batteries by causing gassing. it would bring good batteries down to the level as the bad ones, but they would be equal. regularly doing this will without a doubt destroy the batteries in time.

    basically you most likely won't know you are venting or have vented as agm batteries do not come with indicators on them to tell you. it isn't like driving a car with idiot lights.
  • ThomasThomas Solar Expert Posts: 291
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    what is imho?
    yes they are 2 35 amp batteries, in paralell , 2 feet away from charger and 18'' from inverter. 8AWG from charger/4AWG from batt/batt/inverter.
    panels..fuse...charger...fuse....batterys...relay contactor(yet)...fuse...inverter. About the relay search and developement is in another thread.
    I am biasing panel time soley to charging untill I get a working relay. Manually running the inverter, average about 4-5 hours a night before 12v-12.3v shut down.
    once the workings get a little more working without constant attention I plan on increasing batteries slowly up to max 6 in paralel like the ones I have now, and doubling panels slowly up to 500 watts. then maybee24v. but that is hundreds of dollars, and months away.
    POWER PATROLL. sheets say 13.8/14.4
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    thomas,
    do you have the charger + on one battery and the charger - on the other battery? this helps to even things out without needing to eq the batteries. do be sure the connections are good too. i know this may confuse you being the examples are using 4 batteries instead of 2, but the + and - thing is shown in figure 2. figure 1 shows how it should not be with the + and - coming off of just 1 battery.
    http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

    i do believe the ah capacity is grossly low for a good gt inverter so in light of how your talking has gone in the past i have to ask exactly what is it you are using for a gt inverter?
  • shiftshift Solar Expert Posts: 48
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    Speaking of which, if you have 2 batteries in parallel you should charge using + on one battery and - on the other. Going with that if you use multiple charge controllers would you put them all on the same two posts or do multiple sets of opposites? Same goes for running multiple loads? would there be any relevant difference?
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging
    ..... There is however no need to equalize because the acid is captured.

    I think I would like you to explain that statement a bit more for me, or direct me to where it came from.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • ThomasThomas Solar Expert Posts: 291
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    That is how I have it set up. I do not think I am going to Eqcharge the batterys after all. I have a lot of chargers stored up too. I have a 1A, 4A&8A SCI ASC, two 20A e-bay lvd, a 30A e-bay lvd, they're shelved/boxed, I do not know why I would try to multiply charge...it is all PWM...I do not have any real expirience with substantial DC loads other than inverters, if you have a lot of dc gadgets like pda,cell,ipod, then maybee a permanant Panel Mount DC access like on a generator?
    I use to have a hodgepodge set up of some thin film flex deer feeders, marine battery maintainers,ICP, Brunton folders, and a few top-ray briefcases running my direct tv and satellite internet, then I realized for the same money I could have had 3X the watts. I was moving anyway so I trashed the entire thing and started over. this was 2007.
    Niel-the connections are sound. what would the reccomendations be for a bank size, I figure stopping at about 6 of these batteries total. and 500watts.
    Only thing is the load(my one and only inverter) is hooked up staright to ONE battery, not the two like the charger. And when the wind generator ever gets fixed will also be alternate posts.
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

  • ThomasThomas Solar Expert Posts: 291
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    niel-I just read the link thru...
    the last example seems retarded#4 that is, # 3 seems very nerotically retentive...I have heard/read/seen/remember somthing about WIRE LEGNTH being equivilant nessisarily for some system integrity,electrical timing??? I think this useful only in the space-station!!!! when I get 3 or more batteries #2 or #3 I think is the way to go. The effective reduction of the disparity in efficiency of amperes in possible arrangements is mentioned, however volts? or is there a nessisarily following relationship between the two? with 8 batterys what do you think of groups of 2 then apply 4 batterys in #2 config?
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    Thomas;

    Wire length of any size has resistance. The longer or smaller the wire the greater the resistance. When you are trying to keep parallel batteries in an equal state of charge the wire resistance must be equal to each one. Otherwise there is a loss of Voltage to the battery with the greater resistance. The charge controller reads Voltage at the controller and see a proper set-point like 14.4, but one battery may have 14.4 and the other only 14.2. As a result the second battery never gets fully charged. Over time it will drop in capacity faster than the battery that is receiving full charging Voltage.

    The Smart Gauge diagrams are quite correct and their efficacy is born out in multiple applications in the real world. Many a time we have recommended those wiring diagrams to people having trouble keeping batteries in balance and following them has solved the problem.

    I really don't think you understand enough about electricity to be working with it. That can be a very dangerous thing.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    thomas,
    you are the one having troubles and we are the ones making recommendations. those diagrams are applicable to 2 or more batteries. so it seems that you are pooh poohing the good advice given to you as only good for the "space station" and one is "very nerotically retentive" all the while ignoring my request revealing what gt inverter you are using as it may have bearing on the condition of your batteries. i certainly think it would be a bit anal to think the space station would have need of a grid tied system and if you want to ignore good advice then why are you here spilling your troubles to us? we aren't going to make you do anything you don't want to do, but if you are getting bad results it is because you are not doing things the way they should be done. i tried to tell you before you are not educated enough on this stuff that you are a danger to yourself and those around you, but you didn't want to hear that either. we are trying to educate you and you are not listening. being you are not listening to us shall we save our efforts and ignore you from here on in or what? in any case you need to step back and read, read, and read some more. if you make up your own rules and standards you must live with the results of this along with your included mistakes and be thankful it is not worse than it is because it can be.
  • ThomasThomas Solar Expert Posts: 291
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    niel-apologies ten fold about misunderstanding my response to the link reference. the word in question is a typo- neurotic,- overly attentive to detail without signifigant validity ,trivially. It was simply an observation about one, not all, of the diagrams. I couldent see any reason for some of the differences, and recalled a similar dissortation about batteries at a similar detail level, and decided to share it. I have recieved good reccomendations here and am thank-ful for that. I did not disreguerd the diagrams, I found I was allready following the guidelines promulgated. I still do not see the sense in the last one. My connections are set up positive on one battery, negative on another battery, battery interconnects, only thing is my load is set on one battery only.
    The reference to the space station was simply an exageration that It is my belief that we do not really need that level of sophistication in home applications of electricity, maybee electronic applications....like the space shuttle or something...sincere apology again.
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    Yes, we really do need that level of sophistication on home systems.

    Smart Gauge method #1 is an example of how not to do it. Method #2 works best for only two batteries (like your system). Method #3 has advantages when you have three or more parallel connections. Method #4 is complicated to look at but functions much the same as #2: two sets of parallel connections, each pair using equal length wiring, are connected by unequal length wiring with the long positive on one set and the long negative on the other resulting in the over-all battery wire length (and thus resistance) being equal. This last one is an option in cases where it may not be possible to apply method #3 due to physical constraints.

    You should also be aware that 12 Volt systems suffer more readily from losses in wiring. The Voltage is lower and so the effect of increased resistance is greater on the over-all power. Higher Voltage overcomes resistance more easily.

    In any case, when you parallel batteries the idea is to come up with a common connection point for both the charging and the loads that is resistively equal to the batteries. In other words your charge controller and your inverter should be connected to the same positive and negative points (diagonally opposite each other) so that the resistance factor is the same for both batteries whether charging or discharging. This keeps the current flow even going in and out of both batteries.

    I'm attaching a simple drawing of the two battery hook-up.Attachment not found.
  • ThomasThomas Solar Expert Posts: 291
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    I will tkake your word for it, that we need this level of compelxity....I wish I could remember more about keeping the wire legnths equivilant, It was mentioned in a You Tube Xantrex installation video made by 'WindyNation"
    The diagram you provided is for series connections, that is not applicable to my system right now, I do not plan on starting 24v untill I reach 500watts12v, I am 1/2 way there w/only 5 panels, 2 manufacturers,2 sizes.
    I would send a sketch but my scanner/usb is out of line, and I cant get any graphics programs to work, or learn how they work, the last one I used was Dr. Halo, it came with my Packard-Bell I bought in Chico.in 1990!(out of the Navy...goin to college in Cali...)beer,beer,beer, read,read,read.....
    I do not have a 24v system but the it is as simple as your illustration...only thing is , to me I have to put the inverter conections on opposite batterys like the charger.
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    In the case of the diagram I provided, the only series connections shown are battery interconnects. This is because it is a default drawing that shows a typical 12 Volt system using four 6 Volt batteries (like T105/golf cart batteries which are commonly used).
  • ThomasThomas Solar Expert Posts: 291
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    what happened...??? Thank-you, got my answer about agm and charging. now what was the question...
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

  • dhsoladhsola Solar Expert Posts: 38
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    FYI
    re: equalizing Concord/Lifeline AGM batteries

    Lifeline Manual, July, 2012 (PDF)

    Equalizing (or "conditioning") is in Chapter 5

    Link to Manual (PDF): http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    we don't know what agm batteries he has do we?

    in any case concorde does hint that this is not a routine thing to do and they should come straight out and say it is not something one should schedule for doing periodically.
  • ThomasThomas Solar Expert Posts: 291
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    They are Power Patroll AGM batteries, I have seen them a few times before browsing...(now it seems as though I own some)
    thanks for the manual link.
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

  • dhsoladhsola Solar Expert Posts: 38
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    Agreed, Niel. My Lifeline AGM's are approaching two years old and I've never 'conditioned' them. They're doing just fine, thanks. Even the Manual says in chapter 5,

    "Conditioning should only be done when battery is showing symptoms of capacity loss due to extended time in a partial or low state of charge condition."
  • ThomasThomas Solar Expert Posts: 291
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    you can not condition charge w/out pv watts anyway, and it has been dreary and dismal here down by the missisippi delta-so what a better time to learn by reading only? So far there is more nay than yea about conditioning, it may go out the door with the ssr idea.....
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging
    niel wrote: »
    ..... in any case concorde does hint that this is not a routine thing to do and they should come straight out and say it is not something one should schedule for doing periodically.
    But they like to sell batteries :)
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • ThomasThomas Solar Expert Posts: 291
    Re: AGM charging and EQ charging

    but They like to deliver batteries too though
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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