Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #32
    Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

    Actually, UL will tell you what to say... LISTED means Listed. RECOGNIZED means Recognized. Approved means nothing.

    You can read about this stuff here (PDF).
    As a basis for approval, code authorities look
    for UL Listing Marks to verify that products
    have been investigated for installation in the
    field in accordance with model codes.
    During inspections of electrical installations,
    code authorities may see a variety of
    certification marks, including the UL Listing
    Mark and UL Recognized Component Mark.
    To properly approve the installation, it is
    important for code authorities to understand
    the meaning of each of these marks as well
    as the important differences between them.

    The UL Listing Mark is the most common
    certification mark seen and accepted by
    code authorities. Products bearing the UL
    Listing Mark are usually either complete
    appliances, or equipment and materials that
    are intended for installation in accordance with
    model codes such as the National Electrical
    Code® (NEC®). These products have been
    investigated using applicable construction and
    performance requirements, and when installed
    in accordance with the manufacturer’s
    installation instructions, should provide a safe,
    code-compliant installation. The UL Guide
    Information for each product category typically
    identifies the applicable installation code.

    Comparing UL Listing and Component
    Recognition is like comparing a car and an
    engine. A car is a finished product, and an
    engine is a necessary component. However,
    not every engine is compatible with every
    car. The same is true for UL Recognized
    Components, which will not be compatible
    with all end-product equipment applications.

    UL’s Listing evaluation of an end product
    includes an investigation of the construction
    and performance of all installed components.

    In addition to certifying products for field
    installation in accordance with model codes,
    UL investigates components that are used
    by manufacturers to build UL Listed end
    products. In this way, UL can determine
    in advance safety features and ratings for
    components. End-product manufacturers can
    opt to use components that have already been
    subjected to limited testing to avoid repeat
    testing for the end-product certification. Plastic
    materials, definite purpose contactors, board
    mounted relays and motors are all examples of
    components investigated by UL and bearing
    the UL Recognized Component Mark.

    Regarding NEC--I will have to get back to you on that. But, simply, if you have a 15 amp breaker (from utility) and 12 amps (80% of 15 amps) from a GT inverter on a generic branch circuit with multiple non-dedicated outlets, you now have 15+12=27 amps available to other sockets on the same branch circuit.

    That is not legal. From my point of view--that is one reason that Plug&Play will never be legal with standard household wiring/plugs.

    Could you pre-wire a house with a dedicated branch circuit to the roof (possibly with a non-standard consumer outlet)--Probably. But, you will still need permits to install the balance of system at a later date.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #33
    Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--
    Justin Chew wrote: »
    ... Not sure what you mean, could you explain why a UL listed 120V microinverter does NOT sound like a safe product? As far as a meter being designed/not designed to run backwards, that is something the local utility company would know. Most utilities we've contacted want a simplified interconnection agreement with the customer, so if they have a concern over the type of meter you have they will certainly mention it at that time. Chances of backfeeding with a system this small is highly unlikely anyway. The UL certs are available to us at the company, but obviously until we are no longer concerned about other companies trying to copy/steal our products/ideas then it would be foolish of us to release the UL#'s just so a few biased and ridiculously skeptical forum admins believe us. It won't be long before that info is released, so soon enough everyone will see that the products are safe.

    OK, without being insulting, I would suggest you try another forum, I rarely have more than a 20watt draw on the grid, even with electric heat and fridge, the % time I have <20 watt draw is greater than the time I do. I suspect in this forum that would be a standard situation. My power company wants, a seperate meter and lots of hoops to connect.

    As for worrying about you intelectual property, this is NOT new, the early Trace micro inverter was similar are you stepping on their copyright? This article will explain why the Early Trace microsine nolonger meets UL code and This is the Guerrilla install from Homepower circa 1999.

    FWIW - The Trace Microsine even with a male plug was not 'hot', it had to sense the correct sine wave and voltage to sync and produce. Not sure if it would even be considered 'Unsafe' in and of it's self by UL standards, after 1999 islanding changes. But unsafe in other ways as others have suggested here.

    Nice history of Micro Sine inverters here. Though a bit of advertising through out. Mods do your duty if need be...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #34
    Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

    Provide a link to the relevant UL listings, and we will be convinced. If you don't have such information, then say so, instead of implying that you do,, and that you are "unwilling" to post them, if they exist at all.

    Tony
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  • Joe_B
    Joe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #35
    Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

    Does the new forum software have an "ignore thread" option? Sheesh...
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  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    #36
    Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--
    Joe_B wrote: »
    Does the new forum software have an "ignore thread" option? Sheesh...

    Yes, but this thread is now locked anyway.
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