three phase wiring

Thomas
Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
in Wind Power Generation #1
I have been trying:grr to hook up my generators three phases in paralell not series and conbining in rectifier, resulting in like 1/2 wye and 1/2 delta.! the wiring is in series now tapped by the rectifier. I hope I didn't wreck the stator/coils.:blush:
Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: three phase wiring

    Did you really mean "generators" or "generator's"

    Hopefully not the first. If the later, are you trying to produce D.C. for charging? Is this a PMA? Not clear what problem you are trying to solve.

    PMA alternators for windpower are usually 'Y' config with full wave rectifier output.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,654 admin
    #3
    Re: three phase wiring

    As I understand, Air-X wind turbine with PMA (alternator). No controller, no wiring information.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #4
    Re: three phase wiring

    The problem I am trying to solve does continue to simplify itself some.
    My Air-x permanant magnet generator was in storage for a while and was purchased on e-bay.
    the stator wires were obviously tampered with when I finally began to inspect for installation.
    5 to 6 volts nominal maximum(normal wind speed~15mph) has led me to a treadmill of wye and delta wiring informations and attempts. I think switching to a wye configuration may finally yeild normal 12v wind turbine voltages. I pulled the controller out of it and put in a simple 3 phase rectifier, same results so I may have thrown away a perfectly good mppt..it is only 15 feet up right for easy acess right now so I have to wait for winds for a little while sometimes. Is wye VS. delta as much as like 30% cosequential difference? WOW, if so do the amps in wye suffer the same decrease as the increase in the volts?
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: three phase wiring

    The power will be the same for a wye or delta wiring. Delta will give you a little less for voltage at a little greater current.

    "Nominal" voltage for a PMA is a fuzzy thing. Power is shaft torque times rpm. As electrical load increases the rpm drops, voltage drops, and current is produces to load.

    Bottomline is it needs to be configured based on controller, which is likely a wye setup. If you have six wires with no idea of what goes where, start by ohming out the wires to establish the three individual coils. Then make a static setup, where you work on it driven by a power drill or other suitable motor to get a near constant rpm. There won't much torque requirement to spin it with no electrical load. Measure the AC voltage across each individual coil, which should be simiar for all three coils (why you need a constant rpm drive source). Pick an end of two of the coils and tie them together. Measure the AC voltage across other two open ends of the two coils. If you get 1.73 times the voltage across a single coil you picked the two correct ends to put together. If not reverse the ends of one coil. Tie the third coil with one end to common center connection and check AC voltage between its end and the other two coil ends. If the AC voltage to each other end is 1.73 time voltage across single coil you got it right. If not reverse the end of the coil and verify the 1.73 times AC voltage again. You have to do it at AC so you get the effects of phasing.
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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #6
    Re: three phase wiring

    Hi,
    I am new to this forum stuff and how the computer options/messaging, notifications... work, things do not seem to happen twice the same way as I remember in high school getting an A in B.A.S.I.C., back in 83..anyway..
    I isolated three phases and connected them in wye this time. There is clearly a leading and following end of three phases left to right/ fron to back on the SWW Stator. And Ohm confirmed this.
    with Delta and my Harbor frieght 15$$ drill at max I got 10 volts
    with Wye and same maximum test I got 20 Volts.
    I put it back together with my own rectifier[5$$ from China] and await some wind and performance resembling recognizable 12 volt numbers. Hopefully be different to an effectivity level unlike useless Delta. If so I plan on replacing the SSW controller or getting a Full bridge... I think I got a basic rectifier ....I am giong to plug it into a Xantrex c-35 with 240 watts solar. For a diversion controll I have a Gavazzi line voltage controller Eugc724 and double throw double pole auto 40 amp relays...to resistaive load +300watts currently.seta at 15v
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • 65DegN
    65DegN Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭
    #7
    Re: three phase wiring

    If I had an Xair that needs to be rewired I would contact the company and have them emal a diagram.
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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #8
    Re: three phase wiring

    Hello
    Yeah I did that and got some run around. I did find some pictures of the wiring in a circuit replacement instruction.
    The voltage is strange to me
    phase 1= 6v average
    phase 2= 3v average
    phase 3= 3v average
    I connected them to a rectifier the rectifier to a volt meter, amp meter, and 3 100w Zenon bulbs.
    the bulbs lit up at like 2-3 amps/ 2-3 volts respectively. up to 8-9 amps(high wind from drill) @ only 3 volts.
    +++ wye got the rectifier very hot, so I flipped 2, cooled down and still worked the same.
    mt secon phase quit on me during the trial like it sometimes dous, I think I have ghosts. It was strting to rain and I didnt want to fiddle with the wires to kcock it back connected again to I put it back up ..
    Can you tell me if there is any difference between diode/no diode at batt terminal, I put a 40A blocking diode there to read the voltage independantly of panels/battery. Does it still effect line voltage some way even without a controller?
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,654 admin
    #9
    Re: three phase wiring

    Does not sound right... The Phase A/B/C voltages should all be equal (assuming no shorts or opens) if all is well.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #10
    Re: three phase wiring

    I do not have any good first clue about what could be the matter? All I can see is that the wires are all bare! save a conformal coating that may have thinned... that is the only thing I can think of that could be wrong. My secon phase wires have been flaky and non-isolatable since the beginning. n Is there any existing wisdoms about how to troubleshoot this? Bieng the most technologically advanced small wind generator in the world may the windings be 6-3-3- for some series/parallell combo for integrated circuit optimization in wye at low rpm and as delta at higher rpm? Any one wanna trade?Uh:confused:I think I remember reading that SSW machines optimized suchly, maybee I am discovering how.
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,654 admin
    #11
    Re: three phase wiring

    In the old'en days--You could take things like this to a motor rewinding shop and see what they could do for you.

    You can try following this set of instructions:

    http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Rewind-an-Alternator/

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #12
    Re: three phase wiring

    Any thing on how to troubleshoot before taking it ALL apart like that? I am not so sure I could find the wire for winding or not, or even wind it/coat it etc. Do you think it is burnt inside, like the one in the picture? Mine only has scrapes on the conformal, some deep and allmost acute bends , I want to secure before furthur trials. Cut the leads a little shorter stay inside the stator, and attach flexible braided to them for continueing.
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #13
    Re: three phase wiring

    That link is about a failed attempt to salvage a auto alternator for wind use, however my problem resounded with the volt differences, that is like the problem I am having. I am going to check the windings, they are tight and cramped and not really clear, I'll see what I can see differntly, out of ordinary. Dang #2 phase does not jiggle closed the same wat twice for me, I AM afraid of having to re-wind. I read about special wire/ now insulators, and conformal non-conductive insulation/coatings.
    With phase one series to phase 3, skip 2, and two inputs to the rectifier, I lit up 3 100 watt zenon bulbs fully+ and got to the 10 amp mark, at like 3-4 volts. it reduced to 2 volts/2-3 amps and a low glow in the three bulbs. is this type of voltage drop normal for that type of resistaive load? I ahve them hooked up after a Gavazzi eu724 and auto 40A relay just in case voodo goes my way some night. Stranger fires/occurances have occured.!!!
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,654 admin
    #14
    Re: three phase wiring

    I don't know enough about the alternator to even begin to give you a reasonable answer. If I had the unit in my hands and test equipment--maybe could take some guesses.

    That is why the pay the motor re-winders the "big bucks".

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #15
    Re: three phase wiring

    Thank you. I will try some more again at a later time to get it working. It is frustrating.
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • 65DegN
    65DegN Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭
    #16
    Re: three phase wiring

    I can think of no practical reason for there to be voltage differences between windings. What does the manufacturer say about this?
    Rather than guess, I would get it from the horses mouth.
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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #17
    Re: three phase wiring

    O.K. ,I will try to talk to the horse, but I think all I will get is more ticket No.s#, and heresay, heracy, heritic-al, hypothetical, hypo:cool:
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #18
    Re: three phase wiring

    Effort no.# ? today my expirimental trial with the functionality of my 3 phase wind generator will deal with the following 'y' part of a wye. I am going to connect it to the neg output/input side of the rectifier and see what happens. I hope amps will flow easier and boost/release a few volts too. I read somewhere that w/out a centertap anly small wind not stressful to the circuit. A relpacement is only onehundredandfiftydollars:cry:
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #19
    Re: three phase wiring

    I am sick of my wind generator, even thinking about it
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • 65DegN
    65DegN Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭
    #20
    Re: three phase wiring

    Thomas, IMO, the X-Air is only suitable for weekend get away's where the turbine has all week to charge batteries. They are the cheapest of the entry level machines and I suspect it wouldn't generate enough power for you to notice a difference in your monthly electric bill. I would make sure the guy at ebay got suitable feedback.
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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #21
    Re: three phase wiring

    I got larger blades for it from somewhere in Canada, they work well...
    I hear I can even get larger ones, though any larger would put undue stress on the bearings and mechanical parts voiding my warranty.
    If I ver get the volts into range acceptable there are some engineerings to consider, and read about new....
    I just read some about varying coil engagements to available wind...for example. Are you sure that there is no wiring like mine, or Industry specific engineering? phase 1=6v 2=3v 3=3v or some scaled similar ratio in the pursuit to accomodate circuit controll for switching low rpm wye to higher rpm delta, range of amps higher and more consistant?
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • Brianellul
    Brianellul Solar Expert Posts: 95 ✭✭
    #22
    Re: three phase wiring

    Hi Thomas

    I'll take the stator and re-wind it if it was me.... well that's what I did when mine burned out. The guy took it apart and re-wind it exactly as it was (same number of turns/Wire thichness etc). It only costed me 40 euros, much cheaper that buying a new one. IIRC, it was wired in a star configuration and all phases should read the same voltage.
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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #23
    Re: three phase wiring

    Do you still have the cotroller/ i do not, only the rectifier I am using to allign the contacts for my own rectifier.
    You have a page that you constructed your own allignment contactor from epoxy or something, ? for all three phases down the pole. I have dc out of Air-x now.
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #24
    Re: three phase wiring

    I just got the runaround from SSW again about the lack of controller for it, thus confirminfg my worst fears.... its wound for the controller! a special wind! I think I have read otherwise, I am not sure if winding it identically or not will produce the proper voltages w/ out the SSW controller.
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • Thomas
    Thomas Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭
    #25
    Re: three phase wiring

    I just reread your blog about the Air-x modification....the heck w/them, I will replace the stator if it turs out to be faulty or re-wind it. thanks
    Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight.  Hi Ho Hi Ho
    2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters

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  • hmccoy99
    hmccoy99 Registered Users Posts: 1
    #26
    Re: three phase wiring
    Thomas wrote: »
    I just reread your blog about the Air-x modification....the heck w/them, I will replace the stator if it turs out to be faulty or re-wind it. thanks

    Hi Thomas,

    the Air X/ air 403 has a unusually stator wiring, its a open Delta wiring with staggered turns on each leg . for the 12v unit 6T , 8T , 12T to get a progressive load up of the turbine,
    because of the square law of the power in the wind.. this allows the turbine to spin up and load up more linearly. that is why your getting different voltage reading on each winding

    I would suggest you rewire it in a simple wye configuration. remove the controller. and use a external controller like PWM ***** like a C-40.


    you will get a voltage gain of 1.73 in the wye configuration.. which will load the unit more and make it less of a buzz bomb.


    leave the center of the wye ungrounded. you will have to sort out the phase of each winding..


    the original winding 8t()()()()winding6()()()()winding12t this is a open delta


    good luck
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