Need some help with a genny instal question

morphomorpho Solar Expert Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
Hello everyone!
Well, I finally need to break down and hook-up a generator to my system.
The loads in the house just keep getting bigger and bigger.
But I need some advice about doing this.

Here is what I have:

Magnum MS4448PAE
Midnight Solar E-panel
Flexmax 60
Yamaha EF 2000is genny that only puts out 120V. No 240. and about 13 amps.

So I have 2 #10awg wires running into the e-panel as the instal manual suggests. One to a AC hot in one and the other to the Neutral Bus.
All I could get my hands on out here in the sticks was a 125/250VAC 30 amp male inlet box with L14 prongs. (No L5 to be found)
I want eliminate (not wire) the second hot in the receptacle and just have the one hot, one neutral and the ground.
Does any of this sound right?
Is this going to not work?
Am I going to melt the house and anger "She who makes the rules?"

Thanks for any input and thoughts.
12 conergy panels (3kw)  -  Outback Flexmax 60 CC  -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) Yamaha ef3000ise Yamaha ef2000is
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Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,855 admin
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    As always, confirm with the manual and the mfg (if still not clear). From the MS4448PAE manual (PDF):
    Congratulations on your purchase of the MS-PAE Series inverter/charger from Magnum Energy.
    The MS-PAE Series is a “pure” sine wave inverter designed to provide 120 and 240VAC in a single
    unit to power loads when inverting and also while charging. It has two 120VAC lines (L1 and L2), a
    neutral and a ground. The two 120VAC output lines are 180° out-of-phase with each other, so that
    the combination of the L1 and L2 lines total 240VAC and the voltage between either L1 or L2 and
    neutral is 120VAC. The MS-PAE Series charger can accept 120VAC input (to L1 or L2) or 120/240
    VAC split-phase input power (to L1 and L2), the incoming AC power is shared with the charger and
    the output continues to be 120/240VAC with either a 120VAC or a 120/240VAC input.

    So, it looks OK to wire a 120 VAC genset and use it as a 120/240 VAC inverter.

    You might need to read through the details, it is possible that with 120 VAC only input, that the battery charging circuit may have reduced 48 VDC battery charging output (i.e., 1/2 of 240 VAC rated charging current).

    There is nothing dangerous wiring of L1/Neutral only in the 120/240 VAC split phase plug... However, on the down stream side, are there going to be unused breakers on the L2 phase?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • morphomorpho Solar Expert Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Hmmmm
    Do you mean the AC input breakers?
    I would imagine there is an unused breaker in the downstream. There are two breakers for the AC input.
    What would the problem be with this?

    also, what would be the ramification be of reduced charging output?

    Thanks BB
    12 conergy panels (3kw)  -  Outback Flexmax 60 CC  -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) Yamaha ef3000ise Yamaha ef2000is
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,855 admin
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Yes, you would have 1 unused breaker on the the L2 leg (I was not sure if this was a transfer switch with multiple taps or not).

    Reduced charging output... Normally we start with ~5% to 13% of the battery bank's 20 Hour Amp*Hour rating as the "ideal" charging rate.

    So, if the inverter has only 1/2 charging output on 120 VAC, then the size of battery bank you can charge at "desired" Amp rate would be cut by 1/2 (or whatever the inverter/charger's 120 VAC derating would be).

    Second, I like to recommend that the genset and charger be "matched" as to optimum fuel efficiency (typically, running the genset at 50% of rated power (or more). The less power you draw from the genset, typically, the less fuel efficient the generator will be. So, how does the 120 VAC input affect the inverter/charger's charging output?

    Looking at page 40 of the PDF manual in my previous post, it appears that ratings:
    60 ADC (@56.4VDC) Charging
    17.5 AAC (at 120VAC) per leg

    Basically, the charger will only output a maximum of ~30 amps at 56.4 VDC if you use L1/Neutral only...

    Plus there is an internal transfer relay--so you will only be able to run the L1 120 VAC circuits directly from your genset (need to run inverter to power L1 and L2 120/240 VAC loads).

    But, that is the power limit of your genset anyway... It looks like you would need a 4kW+ or so 120/240 VAC genset to power the inverter's AC input to its full rating.

    So, what is the "real ratings" that you need your inverter, battery bank, and genset to support.


    Please note, I have only spent a few minutes reading the manual--You should look at see if you can program the AC input current Max. and/or the DC charger max output so you can keep the numbers within the range of your Yamaha 2000 genset. I have not read the manual front to back in detail--So these are my first guesses at the issues you will need to address/resolve.

    But, assuming you can design the system to meet the needs of your AC loads (battery bank, genset, solar array, etc.)--I do not see any big stumbling blocks other than the usual (Bank AH capacity, surge/continuous watts from the inverter, and panels/genset recharge capabilities).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • morphomorpho Solar Expert Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Wow....you know this whole process has been amazing. Just when I think: "okay, now I can sit back and enjoy some of that electricity falling from the sky" I find out I can't. I still need to problem solve the next issue. Then I need to come onto a public forum and admit how ignorant I am still.

    So, I think you are saying that only one of the branches running to the service panel will be powered by the genny. The other will still be pulling off the Inverter?
    I have no 240 loads in the house, so if this is the case could I eliminate the second wire from AC-OUT and run a jumper in the service panel to make both sides of the panel hot and powered by the genset?
    Or maybe I am confused on the whole thing.

    Back to the battery charging:
    So if there is reduced charging output, will this have an adverse affect on the batteries or will it simply be slower to charge?

    Thanks once again.
    12 conergy panels (3kw)  -  Outback Flexmax 60 CC  -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) Yamaha ef3000ise Yamaha ef2000is
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,855 admin
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question
    morpho wrote: »
    Wow....you know this whole process has been amazing. Just when I think: "okay, now I can sit back and enjoy some of that electricity falling from the sky" I find out I can't. I still need to problem solve the next issue. Then I need to come onto a public forum and admit how ignorant I am still.
    Try giving a couple wrong answers combined with bad spelling+grammar on a public forum... You want embarrassment? :roll::blush:
    So, I think you are saying that only one of the branches running to the service panel will be powered by the genny. The other will still be pulling off the Inverter?
    I have not read the manual in detail--But, usually when you have AC power supplied to an inverter with a transfer switch, the inverter will simply just pass the AC from the genset directly to the loads this saves on losses (90% efficient charger * 85% efficient inverter = 77% overall efficiency). However, when you have a "missing" L2 leg, the inverter will need to supply the missing "phase"--And I would guess would run 100% of the time (i.e., the generator supplies charging current and energy for inverter; and the inverter supplies all 120/240 VAC power).
    I have no 240 loads in the house, so if this is the case could I eliminate the second wire from AC-OUT and run a jumper in the service panel to make both sides of the panel hot and powered by the genset?
    Or maybe I am confused on the whole thing.

    Yes, but be careful... Many homes/branch circuits are wired with three conductor Romex or other cable... Basically Black/Red/White (plus safety ground).

    On a 120/240 VAC split phase system--The power supply is a Center Tapped AC transformer. The center is your "neutral" and the outer two are your L1/L2 leads.

    What happens is the the Center Tap will only carry the maximum current (say 15 amps for a typical branch circuit on 14 awg wire) when L1 is at 15 amps and L2 is at zero amps. Then Neutral carries the return current.

    If L1 and L2 are both at 15 amps, they subtract from each other (they are 180 degrees out of phase--if that makes sense to you) and you will end up with zero amps on the Neutral.

    If instead you use only L1 and Neutral in a 120/240 VAC breaker box, and jumper L1 to L2 so that both are really just L1, then you don't have the L1/L2 center tap configuration. Instead now, if you have a Black/Red/White setup, the L1+"L2" add up on the neutral. So if L1 and "L2" are 15 amps each, you will now have 30 amps on Neutral (white wire) which could overheat and start a fire.

    So--if you do the L1 to L2 jumper with a >15 amp genset (or inverter), you need to make sure that none of your home/cabin wiring shares a common neutral with both L1 and "L2".

    Sorry for the long, boring answer... This is a safety issue and I need to make sure you understands the issues before you "do it".

    If you do not need 240 VAC, and you have no long runs of 120 VAC circuits (well pump, shed/barn/etc.), then the question is why a 120/240 VAC inverter? It sounds like you would be better off with a 120 VAC inverter instead (the Magnum 120/240 TSW inverter chargers are nice units, not taking away any thing from them).
    Back to the battery charging:
    So if there is reduced charging output, will this have an adverse affect on the batteries or will it simply be slower to charge?

    For "optimum" charging (5-13% rate of charge), this means you will be able to support about 1/2 the size of battery bank by running a 1,600 watt genset on your 120/240 VAC inverter (in your case, it appears both the limiting factors are about the same--The limit of 120 VAC only on the inverter and the limit of a 1,600 watt genset result in the same ~30 amps at 56 volt maximum charge current instead of the 60 amps possible with a 4kW 120/240 PerVAC genset).

    Perhaps you want to go back and evaluate your loads... A 4kW inverter would run my 3 bedroom/4 people suburban home very nicely, with lots of power left over (natural gas, reasonably efficient appliances/forced air heating system, etc.).

    The inverters and generators are the "cheap parts" of the system... Battery banks (and their replacement every 5-10 years or so), a large solar array, and generator fuel costs can really drive up the total costs of your off grid/emergency power system.

    If you are going to use a 2kW genset (again, a very nice Yamaha inverter/generator I believe), then a 4kW 120/240 vac inverter charger is probably overkill for your system and power needs.

    Before you get to set on the equipment, instead look at your needs (watts, peak watts, Watt*hours, distances to send the power, etc.) and see if you can do something else.

    Many times, people would do well with a 1,000 to 2,000 watt TSW inverter, and they get a less expensive 2+kW MSW inverter to run the occasional loads (shop tools, water pump). but, even then, a cheap 2.5-5kW Noise Maker/Fuel SwillingTM generator to run the occasional heavy loads is a better use of your money (design the solar pv system to run 90% of your loads, and use the cheaper generator for the 10% that are too big for a small/efficient PV off grid system).

    Sorry, it gets back to measuring your loads with a Kill-a-Watt type meter and/or a Battery Monitor. You could do some estimates with a DC Current Clamp Meter too.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • morphomorpho Solar Expert Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Except for the concrete guy, I built the whole place with my own hands...or should I say AM BUILDING it. (will it ever end!) so I know I put in one section of 3 wire between two lights and to a switch box. But point taken. overloaded wires...bad. Fire...bad.
    So no jumper. Thats cool, I didn't want to open that box up any time soon anyway.

    As for the over sized system...well too late.... it is bought and I installed it already. Overkill? yup, without a doubt. But I didn't go into this with a clue. (probably not unlike a lot of people) I didn't even have a load to throw a kill-a-watt onto as I didn't even have a house, or an apartment. I was living/working on the road so the only "appliance" I had was a laptop. So I had to make the best guess I could come up with and allow for a bit of expansion....so now I have a lot of expansion...maybe I'll build a condo complex one day...who knows! ;)

    Okay, I think I have a pretty good idea of what the limitations and problems might be.

    As usual this forum and the people on it have been very helpful.

    Thanks BB!
    12 conergy panels (3kw)  -  Outback Flexmax 60 CC  -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) Yamaha ef3000ise Yamaha ef2000is
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    While digging through the Magnum Manual, see if you can locate the charger's Power Factor spec. That will also influence the generator size capacity.

    Also, check the AC frequency spec for the charger to function, sometimes, if they are not exactly 60.00Hz, they wont charge.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Hi You have a nice inverter. I have the 24 volt version and have it connected like a ups and it can run my whole house. Like bill said you can charge from 120vac or 240vac. but the output will be 240 180 degree off phase current. I think you should be able to charge batterys with your generator if your battery bank isn,t oversized for the generator. If you havn,t got it yet you will need to get the remote control so you can change all the charging amps and all other settings and besides it gives you a nice readout what your inverter is doing. Otherwise without the remote control the inverter will operate at the factory default settings which I think is too high for your generator. Mike 900045 here is all the charger spec. for the 48 volt inverter= continuis charger output 60adc, input current 17.5 aac at 120 vac per leg, charger efficiency 85%, imput frequency range 50 to 70 hz, power factor.95 . :Dsolarvic:D
  • morphomorpho Solar Expert Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Hi,
    Thanks solarvic and mike90045

    I have the remote and I guess now I need to look into this angle now as well.
    Back to the manual....again.
    12 conergy panels (3kw)  -  Outback Flexmax 60 CC  -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) Yamaha ef3000ise Yamaha ef2000is
  • morphomorpho Solar Expert Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Happy Saturday everyone.

    okay,
    so thats not right!

    I got it all hooked up and put the genset to it.

    The generator started, the amps on the remote started climbing rapidly upwards of 36amps.
    The sound on the genset was not good either....a slow idle.
    I turned off the genset and started it back up again....same thing race up to about 36 amps, but this time it dropped down to 7amps and stayed there.
    I left it there to see what would happen. Nothing it seemed to work fine.
    Eventually the remote said "absorb charging", but the charge controller said "charged".

    couldn't find anything on this detail.

    I started up the genset this morning and it raced up to about 38amps then it stopped charging, then the genset tripped.

    Okay, anyone have a clue?
    I clearly do not.

    This always seems to happen on a weekend when I can't get in touch with anyone from the company who sold me the equipment.
    They are super good people and have helped me out a lot, but clearly they need to move into my shed and be on call 24/7!



    Thanks
    12 conergy panels (3kw)  -  Outback Flexmax 60 CC  -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) Yamaha ef3000ise Yamaha ef2000is
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,855 admin
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    I believe your genset should have a throttle control On/Off switch... Set the genset (inverter/generator) to full speed, at least until the battery charger is up to full power--and probably leave it there until the charger starts tapering the charging current down.

    Next, have you had a chance to see if you can reprogram the inverter/charger to limit to 10-13 amps or so maximum AC input current (or dial back on the max charging current--which ever your unit has)?

    And do you have any idea of the current state of charge of your battery bank? Specific Gravity, resting voltage, etc.?

    Also, take a good volt meter/DVM/DMM and monitor the battery bank charging voltage... Presumably, when the battery reaches around 56-58 volts (whatever the maximum charging/bulk/absorb voltage you set it), then the battery bank is around 80-90% full, and you should begin to see the battery charging current start to reduce. Also, if there is temperature compensation, you will need to take that into account (cold batteries use higher charging voltages).

    Ideally, start the genset up in the AM and get your battery bank to 80-90% state of charge, shut off the genset, and let the solar array finish the charging during the daylight hours.

    If there are times you will need "high" charging current, it might be worthwhile to purchase a "cheap" 5kW genset. You can plug that in and quickly recharge the battery bank back to 80-90% and let the smaller genset/solar array finish off as needed. As long as you keep the 5kW genset loaded to ~40-50% rated power (minimum) it should be pretty fuel efficient (if the noise is acceptable for your area:blush:).

    I may have missed it, but what are the basics of your system (solar array wattage, battery bank AH @ 48 volts, Yamaha 2000 inverter/generator, etc.).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Concur with BB's first paragraph, my Honda will do this when a heavy charge rate is needed, sometimes stalling it if the demand is too great...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    imput current for charger continuious rated output is 17.5 amp 120 vac (at 120 vac per leg) which is 2100 watts of 120 vac needed to run one leg at 100% charge rate. On your remote control there is a setting of percent charging voltage. You can set it anywhere from 10% to 100% in 10 % increments. Maybe you should try setting the charging voltage at 60% to see how the generator accepts the load and maybe try a little higher setting if you think the generator can handle it. The chargers requirements will back off after you get after bulk charging for awhile. You will see all this on the display of your remote control. :Dsolarvic:D
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,855 admin
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question
    solarvic wrote: »
    On your remote control there is a setting of percent charging voltage. You can set it anywhere from 10% to 100% in 10 % increments. Maybe you should try setting the charging voltage at 60% to see how the generator accepts the load and maybe try a little higher setting if you think the generator can handle it.

    Vic, did you intended current?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Yes I meant the % of charging current. Factory setting of inverter comes new with 90% charging set as default. Which might be too high for that generator. That is why you need the remote control which is an option. I like the remote control but a person needs to study the manual a little before using. Actually it is preety simple after you use it a little. . :Dsolarvic:D
  • morphomorpho Solar Expert Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    wow,
    I missed all that activity!
    I was too busy changing the oil in the generator to be online.


    let me have a read and ponder session....then I will post some other dumb question.
    :blush:
    12 conergy panels (3kw)  -  Outback Flexmax 60 CC  -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) Yamaha ef3000ise Yamaha ef2000is
  • morphomorpho Solar Expert Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Okay,
    there is too much input to deal with individually.
    Sorry. That and I can't figure out the quote function.

    The genset was on full throttle when it was doing what it did.

    The function you all mention regarding regulating the incoming AC is one I have been looking for all day.
    The only one on the REMOTE is "SHORE".

    In the manual it basically says this ensures the inverter AC LOADS receive the maximum current available from the utility or generator.
    "when the the total current used to power the AC loads and charge the batteries begins to approach the SHORE MAX setting, the current that was used for charging the batteries will automatically be reduced. This ensures the AC loads have all the available current when needed."

    So I'm not sure if this is the culprit or not. (by the time I got to this, the system was in absorb so there wasn't much point in putting the genny to it)

    Now on the charge controller the only things I have found that possibly relates is "CURRENT LIMIT".
    It relates to recharge voltage set points- CURRENT LIMIT, ABSORB and FLOAT .
    "The default charger output current limit setting is 60 amps. This setting is adjustable from 5-80 amps. An appropriate breaker must be used between the battery and charge controller."

    Then there was "CHARGE RATE".
    It says:
    "used to set maximum charge rate allowed to charge the batteries during, Bulk, Absorption, Float and equalize charging."

    Thats all I can find in the manual about adjustments of charging

    Now if these two are the same thing, they are called different things in the manuals and adjusting one on the remote does not change the other on the charge controller.
    But maybe this shouldn't surprise me as setting the absorb time on the remote does not change the setting in the charge controller either. And the charge controller over rides whatever is on the remote.
    so who knows?

    I need to re-read the manuals again...."maybe" I missed something.

    Thanks again everyone.
    12 conergy panels (3kw)  -  Outback Flexmax 60 CC  -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) Yamaha ef3000ise Yamaha ef2000is
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Morpho, what you need to look for is how to change the output of the Magnum inver/charger (4448?) to have it out put ~ 30 amps, this should not overload you gen and thus not stall it..

    hth
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Ok I got out my manual for the remote control. I have the 24 volt inverter and the max shore rateis set to 60 amp for grid pass thru on my 24 volt inverter. . I havn,t used a generator yet. I am going to use a dc generator and the generator won,t be connected to the inverter. I think maybe you should set the shore limit to a low amp setting and go up from there till you find the rate your generator can still handle. When you find the amp your generator can handle please post it as I was thinking about getting one of those yamaha generators set up for NG from maine diesel. You should be able to set the voltages in the charge rate. The shore rate will probably limit the amp rate you can charge. Hope this doesn,t confuse you too much as it is a case of the blind leading the blind, but I think this is the way to do it. :Dsolarvic:D
  • morphomorpho Solar Expert Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    With any of these options, does it mean that I will need to raise and lower the setting depending on whether I am using the gen or the PV array?
    The sun will be up soon, and it looks like it will be the first really sunny day in a while and I'd hate to not be getting as much as possible into the Batts.

    Okay, last night I started up the gen and lowered the CHARGE RATE on the remote to 60%, still too much, down and down I went until I got to the last option of 10%. That settled the incoming amps at 13 and the gen was behaving pretty well.

    I guess I will turn that back up to the default and try the SHORE POWER turned down and see what that does, then try the CURRENT LIMIT as well.

    solarvic:
    I will try the shore power today and see.
    Thanks for mentioning Maine Diesel! Wow! now that would be handy. I want!

    Wetsbranch:
    Hmmm?
    If I find a way to have the inverter/charger putting out 30amps, does that mean I need the Genset doing more or less the same?
    Because there is no way it can do it. (as far as I know)
    It is rated at 13 amps output.

    BB:
    You asked me a few things...let's see.
    I have
    2580 watts of Kyocera modules
    8 6volt 220 Amp/hr batts
    Magnum 4448 inverter
    Flexmax60
    Magnum ME-RC remote

    I only brought this system online a few days ago and it was recommended that I get it into float, then run an equalization on the batts.
    Then take the specific gravity readings.

    Problem being the sun has been absent and I have just been able to get it into float once...then the sun went down.
    So that means I need the generator to run the equalization. But I can't do that because I can't get it to function properly.
    So long story short. Nope I do not know the gravity of the batts.

    Okay, it snowed so I had better go and sweep the panels off.
    Hope everyone is having a good sunny day.
    12 conergy panels (3kw)  -  Outback Flexmax 60 CC  -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) Yamaha ef3000ise Yamaha ef2000is
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Morning Morpho, I think if it is sunny for you today you may get your bank up a bit with that much PV.

    First I think you are getting the AC and DC amps muddled. Remember Watts are Watts regardless of AC or DC.

    Your gen is out putting 13 Amps @ 120V AC, 1560 W, your Battery wants (@10% rate) 22 Amps @ 48V DC, ~1056 W. BUT on start-up the magnum will try to put ~ 60A DC @ 48 v, ~2880 W, into the bank and then ramp down to what the battery needs.

    So you need to get by that initial hump hence the downward adjustment to the max output from the Inver/charger to 30 A DC @ 48 V or ~ 1440 W which you gen should easily handle.

    If you get the sun today the CC will dump in max amps and that should bring down the "peak Amps" that the Magnum 4448 will try to input and the genset will probably falter and then kick in, with the Eco-throttle OFF.
    If you get it to work, run both gen and PV in at the same time and turn ON the Eco-throttle.
    Your PV should give you up to ~ 50 amps (maybe more if its nice and cold) and the gen will fill in the rest that the batt wants.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    All the settings on your inverter remote control control the battery charger in your inverter. The shore setting controls the amount of amps that you have available to feed into the inverter from your generator or grid. My remote settings start at 5 amp and have increase settings in increments of 5 amps. Your generator should work at the 10 amp setting. which would mean your generator can feed 10 amp of 120 vac. !5 amp is the next setting up and I don,t know for sure if that would overload your generator or not. West branch, there isn,t a 13 amp shore setting. If you can get the shore setting set to what the generator can supply then your charger should limit itself to the shore setting. I think the charge setting menu mostly sets the voltage you want to set for bulk, float and equalize. You will be limited to amperage from the shore setting but can still have the voltages you need from the charge setting.
    Solarvic. its later in the day, how good a charge did you get?
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    hi SolarVic, I just looked at the Yamaha spec sheet and it reads

    Maximum AC Output 2000 watts
    Rated AC Output 1600 watts
    Rated / Maximum AC Current 13.3 / 16.7 amps @ 120V

    so the gen should be able to do 15 A , for a short time. Be good for him if it will. Nothing mentioned as to duration of max output.

    Morpho, just how cold was it today in the ''coldest corner"?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • morphomorpho Solar Expert Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    The sun was out in full force and once the ice managed to melt off the panels things went into float pretty quickly.
    I unfortunately was too busy dealing with trying to solder the radiant slab heating system together to work on the genset/charge controller settings. (my wife thinks heat at this stage of the game is mandatory....I got her power! what more does she need!) ;)
    It's lots of fun building your own house...if you are a masochist.

    Westbranch:
    It has been a creepy winter so far. Super mild. I'm used to seeing -30 this time of year but we had rain the night before that turned to snow, which of coarse put about 1/2" of ice on the panels, with another 1" of snow on top of that. Glad I put them on a ground rack and not on the roof of the house.
    So, yes I did have my AC DC amps muddled. thanks for clearing the water for me.
    It looks like it will be sunny today so, as you suggest, I will plug in the gen at the same time as it is pulling from the array and see what happens.

    SolarVic:
    So I am still confused about which setting I need for the genset to function properly. Shore settings? Current limit? Charge rate? Some other mysto poorly named function?
    (actually, the more I read the manual, the more I think the whole system needs to be set up properly. Everything is at the factory defaults, but I am hesitant to start changing things until I have a better grasp on what is going to happen.
    hmm? I will look at the manual again. (I think the words are starting to burn in to my retinas)

    Okay, while it's still dark out i will read the manuals for a bit.
    And it's Monday, so I will call the folks at Sunfind where I got the equipment from and see what they have to say.

    Where do you guy's find the time to help out poor electroignorant folks like myself anyways?
    Either way...thanks.
    12 conergy panels (3kw)  -  Outback Flexmax 60 CC  -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) Yamaha ef3000ise Yamaha ef2000is
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    If this doesn't confuse you more. The terms come from the world of Mobile use of the inverters, boats and Rv's, etc .

    Shore Power is the incoming AC breaker size. Say if you had a 50 amp AC breaker where you plugged in a RV park. ( in your case it's no more than 16 amps, but the controller does not have that increment, you might have to drop lower )

    Power Share is the amount of current you want let the charger use and the amount you want let the inverter to bypass. ( this also could be Current Limit I'd think.)

    Charge % is the amount of amps you want the charger to output. ( 50% should be 50% of it,s output. IE, 30 amps in this case)

    Each setting has a correlation to each other. If you lower one it will have a effect on the other. Where you only have a small generator and you want 100% power to go to charging, you have to cut the other off. If you had a larger generator you could charge and bypass at the same time.

    This how the inverter works on my Boat, Magnum Inverters are the guys that use to be Heart Interface and after the company was sold to Xantrex they started a new company.
  • morphomorpho Solar Expert Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Okay,
    Being that it is finally monday, I talked with the guy's at the shop and they said the culprit is the "CHARGE RATE" setting on the remote. Basically turn it down until the generator is happy...er.
    Obviously my little generator is undersized for this application, but I have what I have and I guess I'll just need to save up for another one.

    Blackcherry04:
    Thanks for the info.
    Don't worry you didn't confuse me more than I already am.

    Okay, I'm going to go and try this and I will let you know.

    Thanks everyone! As usual I learn a lot when I get on here.
    12 conergy panels (3kw)  -  Outback Flexmax 60 CC  -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) Yamaha ef3000ise Yamaha ef2000is
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    At some point you may want to have a separate charger hooked directly to the batteries. On my inverter if you have the Inverter charger set above 80%, it will keep cutting out in a " Over Temp " and starts and stops charging. I have a Honda EU 2000 with a IOTA charger I leave hooked up and will use it to supplement the charge. One thing about the little generators is they are a big bang for the buck.

    Once you get all the setting ironed out, it'll work pretty good.
  • morphomorpho Solar Expert Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    okay, this is completely unscientific, but I settled on 20% as that is where my little Genny "sounded nice" and I didn't feel guilty for being Evil to it. If that makes any sense?
    At 20% the remote is reading a steady 19 amps.

    Anyone think this is too high?
    Too low?
    Just right?

    So it didn't get sunny today, so it's a good thing this is working.
    12 conergy panels (3kw)  -  Outback Flexmax 60 CC  -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) Yamaha ef3000ise Yamaha ef2000is
  • morphomorpho Solar Expert Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    Thanks Blackcherry,
    I'm already super happy with things so far, regardless of generator issues.
    We are hoping that next winter we will be gone for at least 3 months of the darkest coldest part, so maybe I won't have to worry as much about generators and lack of sun.
    Swinging in a hammock in some hostel in Nicaragua has to be cheaper than generators, gas, extra panels, stress etc.
    Bueno, cervezas por todo las personas! (and you thought my english was pretty poor!)
    12 conergy panels (3kw)  -  Outback Flexmax 60 CC  -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) Yamaha ef3000ise Yamaha ef2000is
  • techntrektechntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Need some help with a genny instal question

    You'll want to load the genset more than that IF the batteries can take a bigger charge - looking at your sig it appears you have a 220 amp @ 48 volt bank (all batts serial for the 48 volt Magnum), so you could go a little higher. You will get the best efficiency from a genset when you load it above 50%, ideally around 80% if you are using a power-factor corrected charger. If it isn't power-factor corrected you may have to stick closer to 50% of the genset's capacity.

    My usual example is my own 12 kw Generac. It uses close to 1.5 gallons/hr of LPG at no load and 1.5 gallons/hr at half load (6 kw), so there is little efficiency gain from loading it up even to 50%. But it only uses 0.5 gallons/hr more (2 gallons/hr total) to produce a full 12 kw, so loading it up to 80% provides a big gain in efficiency!
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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