Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #32
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    Companies are doing more with less staff. I know we are!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #33
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?
    PhilS wrote: »
    I think Frigidaire. I have had to replace the glow bar once and learned more about it from an appliance repair forum.

    The current flow through the glow bar is what energizes the fuel solenoid. First the glow bar starts to heat, then when resistance is low enough the gas turns on.

    I doubt any of the ovens would keep the bar glowing all the time.

    Phil

    Actually, they do, all the time the gas is running. They use half power to keep it warm, rely on flame to keep it hot, and constantly measure the resistance, if it changes, gas goes off, relight cycle begins. Awfull system. Spark ignitors and flame detectors are the way to go, but the circuit is more complex. Range tops have them, and if a breeze blows the flame away from the sensor - zap - zap - zap goes the re-ignitor.


    Mike (back from a non-working vacation, still no batteries delivered :(
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  • PhilS
    PhilS Solar Expert Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    #34
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?
    mike90045 wrote: »
    Actually, they do, all the time the gas is running. They use half power to keep it warm, rely on flame to keep it hot, and constantly measure the resistance, if it changes, gas goes off, relight cycle begins. Awfull system. Spark ignitors and flame detectors are the way to go, but the circuit is more complex. Range tops have them, and if a breeze blows the flame away from the sensor - zap - zap - zap goes the re-ignitor.
    Mike (back from a non-working vacation, still no batteries delivered :(

    Maybe I didn't word my post well enough .... the glow bar shouldn't be "glowing" if the gas isn't supposed to be flowing. There is a short time where the bar glows before the flame ignites.

    And thanks, Mike, for further explaining the systems that we off-gridders must compensate for.

    What Mike said about measuring resistance I don't doubt. But for us simple folks, if you are watching the glow bar and the flame doesn't seem to be igniting every time, the glow bar can be defective. It can glow, but not enough to open the gas valve. This situation makes for an intermittant problem: "sometimes my oven lights just fine, other times it glows but the oven doesn't light".

    But I don't understand the comments about the range... if the flame blows out on our stovetop, there's nothing that would restart it nor stop the gas. I've seen this happen too many times where there's gas flowing but no flame to oxidize it.

    On ours, if the flame blows out because the nearby window is open, there is no buildup of propane. But if it blew out and the house was closed up, I can envision an explosion. Dang but that would suck.

    Phil
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  • MiamiSunrise
    MiamiSunrise Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭
    #35
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    I can indeed confirm that the glowbar can glow without actually drawing the proper amount of current to open the gas valve! My Kenmore (Whirlpool) gas oven at home throws us for some Glowbar Drama every now and then.

    The glowbar is made of silicon carbide - an electrically conductive and very heat tolerant, but BRITTLE AS HECK material.

    The mechanism is actually REALLY simple. A bimetallic resistance element inside the gas valve responds to the current flowing through the glowbar (they're in series). As the glowbar heats to its full operating temperature, it begins to exhibit a negative temperature coefficient resistance characteristic - in most systems, this would just be thermal runaway, which ends in *POOF!*. The glowbar, instead, begins to draw an increased amount of current as it gets to a nice marigold orange, which leads to a greater voltage drop across the bimetal in the gas valve, heating it up a bit and opening the valve. A small crack in the silicon carbide helix on the glowbar will lead to it glowing but not drawing enough current to pop open the gas valve. A short in the system blows the bimetal in the gas valve to kingdom come like a fuse element. Do not try applying 120V straight to your gas valve to test it!

    The interesting thing about the glowbar system is that since it works on thermal runaway, in a sense, it's fairly tolerant of voltage differences. What kills glowbars is thermal shock occurring during the oven's self clean cycle (hello, designed-in failure, ugh!) or foreign objects hitting the glowbar (spills!)

    But yeah... dare I say it might be better to get an old-school pilot light oven if you're off grid... the really cheap models (like Roper by Whirlpool) can be found with pilot ignition. These usually also do not have sealed burners, so you have to do the whole lift and clean under the top dance, sadly. Ew.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #36
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    The small Frigedaire and Kenmore Propane gas dryer that is sold with their energy star washing machines is a little more intelligent in that the igniter is only on to ignite. I would think that this circuit could be used for a gas range. It still has that "sweet" 3 amp AC load but only the first 30 seconds (or so) of heat demand.

    To the OP, I did recieve e-mail from Pierless so they are awake!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
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  • morpho
    morpho Solar Expert Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
    #37
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    Thanks for all the info everyone...sadly I still am undecided on what to do.

    If I could just see a peerless premier pro up close. Open the door, turn the knobs, etc. That would make me a whole lot happier.

    Even the pictures online are almost all the companies photos, so you may not be getting the real "picture".

    Anyway, I'll keep looking.
    11.5 kw array  -  3 - midnite solar classic 200's   -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  2 simpliphi lithium (48v) - Yamaha ef3000ise - 1 confused look on face
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  • morpho
    morpho Solar Expert Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
    #38
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    Just in case anyone cares,
    I ended up with a BlueStar gas range....yes it has a glow bar...but, I will live with it.
    Thanks everyone.
    11.5 kw array  -  3 - midnite solar classic 200's   -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  2 simpliphi lithium (48v) - Yamaha ef3000ise - 1 confused look on face
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  • benthere
    benthere Solar Expert Posts: 113 ✭✭✭
    #39
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    For anyone that cares, we have this oven and it does not even have a power plug. http://www.homedepot.com/Appliances-Kitchen-Appliances-Ranges-Gas-Ranges/Americana/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbv5rZ1yi/R-100098056/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&superSkuId=202759837

    That's not necessarily an endorsement. Ours was converted to propane and collects a bunch of soot in the burner manifolds. I don't know if the problem is a design flaw or a lousy conversion. Elevation may also be a factor.

    I'm looking for one with a brain because my wife is forgetful and occasionally leaves the oven on.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #40
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    Check your manifold pressure,, and adjust the air gates on the manifolds. Make sure there is little yellow in the flame.

    Tony
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  • rgs03833
    rgs03833 Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭
    #41
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    Hi,

    I have a few, including my Income Property. They're GREAT as a Safety Feature, because if they don't have the Glow Bar, the Pilot will be on 24/7 which create Heat in the house, and if you have the Oven Pilot and the 4 Stove Tops it does create alot of Heat in the Summer. I've live with this for years....

    I'm glad they changed that, because before, you can't leave anything on the Stove Top without being affraid of Fire, so that is the plus. Also, if you turn on the Oven and the Pilot is NOT on, by the time you discovered that the Pilot is off or blown off for some reason. You have to open the Windows to air out the Gas smells....

    Also, if you have an Income Property like I do, it's a Peace of Mind while you have Tenants or even yourself. The only down fall to the Glow Bar is that you have to have the Electricity on or the Oven won't turn on. So if you have an Off Grid System, you need to save your power, lol or even big snow storms, you just got the Stove Tops since you can still light it manually. Also I may add that the Glow Bar do go BAD, it took me a while to figure it out that it is the Glow Bar was bad on one of my Tenant's Stove. Funny thing is that the Glow Bar was still working, but it didn't get the Temp high enough to open the Gas Line Valve to ignite the oven. So it kinda blow me off from diagnostic.

    I know i'm late... But just incase someone have this problem in the future, also good choice on your part. You'll be happy with it... Trust me ;)

    BRAVO to MiamiSunrise... He explained the Glow Bar really clear :)
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #42
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    When I have watched appliance service people debugging a glow bar system... They always used a clamp on AC Amp Meter to measure the glow bar current--Many times the glow bars crack and the current falls--but they still look to be working OK.

    Don't remember, but I seem to recall that 4-5 amps (120 VAC glow bar) seemed to be OK.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #43
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    As I understand it, the way the glow bar system works, is that the gas valve won't open until the glow bar has drawn X amps for a certain amount of time. So even a glow bar that still glows red, may not draw enough current to allow the gas valve to open, ensuring that there is enough "glow" to light the gas once the valve actually opens.

    Tony
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  • Volvo Farmer
    Volvo Farmer Solar Expert Posts: 209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #44
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    Sorry, late to the party here.

    Flat glowbars are supposed to draw 3.2 to 3.6A to open the gas valve. Round ones are somewhat less, 2.5 to 3A. God bless the engineer who decided to put silicon carbide ignitors in ranges because I repair appliances for a living and my kids need to go to college. I sell dozens of them every year.

    I haven't seen anyone mention the Whirlpool DSI ranges yet. They use a spark ignition and a flame sensor for both the oven and the broiler. They have an electronic control board that has a bit of a 24/7 load but it is very small. My off grid neighbors bought one last Christmas and I installed it for them. I put a kill-a-watt on the thing but don't remember the exact numbers. I seem to recall that it was only pulling 5 watts or so while off and less than 40 watts while on.

    These ranges are available under the Whirpool and Kenmore brand, but not every Whirlpool or Kenmore range is a DSI (Direct Spark Ignition) model. It has been my experience that the salesmen in most big box stores are clueless as to what kind of ignition system is in a range.

    All these ranges that I have seen have a waist high broiler. If you open the door and see one of these next to the burner, it is DSI
    898618-1-M-Whirlpool-9758079-Bake-Igniter.jpg

    Don't confuse it with one of these. This is a glow bar
    1990.jpg

    If I didn't have a nice 1948 40" chrome top Okeefe and Merritt in my house, I would buy one of these Whirlpool ranges in a heartbeat. They are really well suited to off grid use.
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  • green_field
    green_field Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #45
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    um, about a year ago, wife and I bought a plain and simple pilot light gas stove, brand name Estate. we're off the grid, so the compromise was acceptable, the little heat the three pilot lights (one for each pair of top burners, one in the oven) add to the room is ok. we're in the Missouri Ozarks, and a lot of folks here use tank propane, so this kind of stove, while not common, is still available (we got our at the appliance store in town 33 miles away).
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  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    #46
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?
    Volvo Farmer wrote: »
    I haven't seen anyone mention the Whirlpool DSI ranges yet. They use a spark ignition and a flame sensor for both the oven and the broiler. They have an electronic control board that has a bit of a 24/7 load but it is very small. My off grid neighbors bought one last Christmas and I installed it for them. I put a kill-a-watt on the thing but don't remember the exact numbers. I seem to recall that it was only pulling 5 watts or so while off and less than 40 watts while on.

    These ranges are available under the Whirpool and Kenmore brand, but not every Whirlpool or Kenmore range is a DSI (Direct Spark Ignition) model. It has been my experience that the salesmen in most big box stores are clueless as to what kind of ignition system is in a range.

    Good info, since I am shopping for a new gas range right now :) I would note though that some Whirlpool ranges got a mediocre reliability rating from CU, but they don't break it down on electronic vs glow bar types.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #47
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    My Gas Dryer works the same way as Volvo Farmers ignition info and I have been wondering when it would get into a range. Thanks for the info Mr. Volvo. Did you ever get your tracker to be reliable?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
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  • Volvo Farmer
    Volvo Farmer Solar Expert Posts: 209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #48
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?
    Dave Sparks wrote: »
    My Gas Dryer works the same way as Volvo Farmers ignition info and I have been wondering when it would get into a range. Thanks for the info Mr. Volvo. Did you ever get your tracker to be reliable?

    I find that hard to believe, as I have not seen a gas dyer with spark ignition manufactured in the last 30 years or so. Almost every one I have ever seen uses a silicon carbide ignitor with a heat sensor that turns the ignitor off when it turns the gas valve on.

    My trackers are pretty reliable except when one of Duane's boards blows up. I have a half dozen old boards but have not had to replace one in eight or nine months now, with three arrays tracking.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #49
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    It is not a spark but it is only on to ignite the gas. Once the gas is lit the AC amperage drops and I assume another sensor is sensing the lit flame.

    Glad you got the sun in the bulls eye!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
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  • mikeo
    mikeo Solar Expert Posts: 386 ✭✭✭
    #50
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    This is the only oven I have found so far with DSI
    http://www.whirlpool.com/-%5BSF216LXSQ%5D-1001446/SF216LXSQ/
    It looks pretty good to me and the price is not too bad. Know nothing about its reliability
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #51
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?
    mikeo wrote: »
    This is the only oven I have found so far with DSI
    http://www.whirlpool.com/-%5BSF216LXSQ%5D-1001446/SF216LXSQ/
    It looks pretty good to me and the price is not too bad. Know nothing about its reliability


    http://www.premierrange.com/rangeP30.php
    It does look pretty good except it has what looks like a porcelin top which is not going to last any longer than the reference here from Premier. The Premier has the spark ignition for the oven. Quite a few of my Female associates want a ceramic top which can be brought back to showroom finish easily. I could not find other model ranges either in Whirlpools "6th sense" series.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
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  • mikeo
    mikeo Solar Expert Posts: 386 ✭✭✭
    #52
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?
    what looks like a porcelin top
    What is so bad about that. I think all the stoves I have owned in the last 40 years has had porcelin tops. Yes they can be chipped if something heavy is dropped on them. Yet I see plenty of stoves that are 50 years old with porcelin tops, yes that is old fashion and out of style. but the tops usually are in much better conditions then the burners and controls. Also there are scratch repair kits for old porcelin stoves.
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  • Volvo Farmer
    Volvo Farmer Solar Expert Posts: 209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #53
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?
    Dave Sparks wrote:
    Quite a few of my Female associates want a ceramic top which can be brought back to showroom finish easily.

    Ceramic top is by definition, an electric range. All gas ranges have porcelain over steel or very rarely, stainless steel.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #54
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?
    Volvo Farmer wrote: »
    Ceramic top is by definition, an electric range. All gas ranges have porcelain over steel or very rarely, stainless steel.

    Ever look at a gas GE profile or the higher end Whirlpools? It is a personal matter for sure and most guy's probably could care less. Once you use something really nice that can be easily maintained at a new like appearance it is a factor. I do some very high end offgrid homes and I always look for low energy appliances. Some of the professional ranges are complete energy hogs so I am interested in anything new.
    http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PGS968SEMSS
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #55
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    too bad guys

    from the link: "Model no longer being manufactured "

    another guy problem with those 'new style' ranges, with the electronic controls on the low front panel, is that at a house party a bloke over 6 foot can inadvertently park their butt on the controls and turn the oven on or off or up... I know from first hand experience....twice... at different kitchens, different makes too, just the same style... good thing there was nothing to burn in the ovens...:blush::blush:
     
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  • TheBackRoads
    TheBackRoads Solar Expert Posts: 274 ✭✭
    #56
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    I know everyone has come to the conclusion that normal gas ranges use energy for the glow bars (whatever you want to call them) in the ovens, and I can confirm that our new double oven uses ~400W when the flame is on/about to come on. So if both ovens are on its about 800W... standby w/ clock is about 3W.

    Kenmore Double Oven

    Just my $.02
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #57
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?
    westbranch wrote: »
    too bad guys

    from the link: "model no longer being manufactured "

    another guy problem with those 'new style' ranges, with the electronic controls on the low front panel, is that at a house party a bloke over 6 foot can inadvertently park their butt on the controls and turn the oven on or off or up... I know from first hand experience....twice... At different kitchens, different makes too, just the same style... Good thing there was nothing to burn in the ovens...:blush::blush:

    buns off the ovens !
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

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  • Volvo Farmer
    Volvo Farmer Solar Expert Posts: 209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #58
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?
    Dave Sparks wrote: »
    Ever look at a gas GE profile or the higher end Whirlpools? It is a personal matter for sure and most guy's probably could care less. Once you use something really nice that can be easily maintained at a new like appearance it is a factor. I do some very high end offgrid homes and I always look for low energy appliances. Some of the professional ranges are complete energy hogs so I am interested in anything new.
    http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PGS968SEMSS

    Well, you learn something new every day. I have to admit I have never seen that before!

    The first thing I thought about when looking at that thing is what happens when you boil a pot over? Looks to me like it all runs straight off the cooktop and down into the crack between the range and the cabinet.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #59
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?

    The GE in the link is a "slide in" type range. There is nothing new about this type of range BTW. It is a flush mount as oposed to a "freestanding". The Premier that I still reccomend (but most of the females reject) is also a "slide in".

    Offgrid everything in the best low energy designs is based on winter and so being able to bake all day, or all night and heat the home as a side benefit is a goal. Burning a couple KWH doing this is just cyling batteries needlessly. It also leads one to the day they get to lift batteries again.:grr

    I continue to hope that someone will post here that they have a high-end range that only uses the igniter to light the oven flame and then goes out once the gas ignites. This would be acceptable in termes of energy usage. The other thing I hope is that Premier would just build a ceramic top on their model. One of their people told me that they are a union company and it would be when pigs fly that they would change anything.http://www.premierrange.com/rangeP30.php
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #60
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?
    Dave Sparks wrote: »
    T the igniter to light the oven flame and then goes out once the gas ignites. /rangeP30.php[/URL]

    I was just thinking about our camper Fridge, you have to manually press a button to light, it snaps continuously till you release the button. Just like a BBQ igniter.
    Wonder why they can't use the existing technology in stoves???:confused:
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
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  • mikeo
    mikeo Solar Expert Posts: 386 ✭✭✭
    #61
    Re: Gas oven without an electric glow bar?
    Wonder why they can't use the existing technology in stoves
    That is what the electronic ignition does on the stoves we have been talking about, produces a spark when you press the knob in light the burner position. I don't know why there are not more choices of stoves with this feature though. I suspect the glow bar system is cheaper and safer to build. There still has to be a separate sensor system to detect if the fire goes out and shuts of the gas to the burner with spark ignition.
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