how to wire into service panel.

solarvic
solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
My AC service panel is mounted in wall between wall studs so all wireing goes thru top and bottom. Makes it difficult to wire a sub panel to it. Installing a main breaker interlocking kit. Installing magnum inverter with 240 vac output into service panel. I understand that you can,t supply grid power to imput wires on inverter while inverting power to service panel. It can,t feed itself. I would like to pass power from grid into inverter and pass thru to service panel. I thought of a way that I think this can be done. When I had electrician connect my service panel I had him leave extra wire in service panel from feed line from meter because I was already started on my solar system and wanted to be prepared for a sub panel, ect. My AC feeder line is #2/augt. aluminum from meter. Is there a safe way to get power off the line before it goes thru main breaker on service panel? I want 60 amp to feed a sub panel for the inverter pass through and battery charging. I think this way the inverter can have its output isolated from the imput to inverter. I have reduced all my loads where I am sure the 4000 kw inverter should be able to power my home except @ air conditioner time. I think I am using 6 kw.average daily most of the year. All help and suggestions needed and apreciated. :Dsolarvic:D

Comments

  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    solarvic,
    i think you need to look at some of the midnight epanels as they handle some of that fancy switching i think you are thinking of. they have wiring diagrams allowing you to follow what goes where. if you don't get the epanel you can certainly see how the wiring should go.
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    Niel, Here is you tube on how the interlock kit works I bought. http://www.interlockkit.com/intro2.htm
    I guess you didn,t understand my question. I don,t need the Midnight E-panel as I already have a trace PC 500 inverter panel box that is set up for 2 inverters, Has 2 250 amp inverter breakers, 5 spaces for charge control breakers and (2 interlock inverter output breakers I won,t be using) so I know how to get the inverter power into my AC service panel by using the interlock kit I linked to.!! What I wanted to know if there is an approved way to get power off the grid side of my main breaker to run to a small sub panel to feed grid power into inverter for grid pass thru and battery charger.!! Hope this is more clear. I called rick at our host and bought 3 accessorys I wanted for the Magnum, and he thinks My pc-500 and breahers I have is just fine. got a midnight 150 too. I wanted to get as much of the inside work done as possible as my ground is just too wet from all the rain we are getting. I was out in yard today and you sink up to your ankles in the mud. Wish we could send this rain to someone else that needs it. Solarvic
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    actually, that is what i thought you were asking and my magnum is fed utility power into the epanel i have it mounted on for pass-through and battery charging. look over one of the circuit diagrams on the epanels and you can see how they do it. they have a device on the epanel that does similar to the interlock kit you have just bought. i think you are trying to reinvent an epanel.
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    Niel, I think you still don,t understand what I was asking or else I don,t understand what you are trying to tell me. I looked at the epanel manual. What I understand is you are getting your 240 volt out of the house service panel with breakers to pass utility grid powerto the epanel. thru the inverter. What I want to do is get utility power from grid before it goes thru main breaker, not after it goes thru main breaker. Is there some aparatis I can tap power from wire before it goes onto thru main breaker? I wanted to be carefull I didn,t do something unsafe or illegal. With the interlock kit I don,t need a subpanel with a bunch of feedlines out of my house panel to sub panel. Actually in a way I would be using the service panel like a sub panel. So what I want is power from the grid wire before it goes thru my service panel to a subpanel with 220 60 amp to power my inverter and still have power to the main circuit breaker of my original service panel. why I bought the interlock the interlock. solarvic
  • Seven
    Seven Solar Expert Posts: 292 ✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.
    solarvic wrote: »
    What I want to do is get utility power from grid before it goes thru main breaker, not after it goes thru main breaker. Is there some aparatis I can tap power from wire before it goes onto thru main breaker? solarvic

    What it seems you need is another panel. You would put in a two breaker panel(or a big disconnect) on the main feed line. You would split the feed in that box and have one go to the main panel and one to your sub panel. I recently did something like that to split two large compressors so they could be powered down individually.

    You will have to disconnect the meter to do this. Be careful. I'm sure you know to be sure no power can get from your inverter to the main panel.
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.
    Seven wrote: »
    What it seems you need is another panel. You would put in a two breaker panel(or a big disconnect) on the main feed line. You would split the feed in that box and have one go to the main panel and one to your sub panel. I recently did something like that to split two large compressors so they could be powered down individually.

    You will have to disconnect the meter to do this. Be careful. I'm sure you know to be sure no power can get from your inverter to the main panel.
    Yes Seven I think you inderstand what I wanted to do. Not much use of me buying an Epanel that my trace p-500 panel box does what I want to do and I understand better. I won,t have to worry about the meter as i have a mobilehome service panel on the pole. I just will go out and pull the main. Inside my home I have a square d service panel with the grid wire coming in the bottom. if I disconect the grid feed wire from square d main breaker I have enough wire to come out the top into another service panel, that I can connect to main breaker have breakers to go back to main and 1 set to my inverter. This way I can connect into the first service panel by use of the generator interlock kit and still have power to feed to inverter battery charge and pass thru and not have the inverter feed itself. If this works I was planning on having it connected this way full time and still be able to feed the main panel if I wanted to turn inverter off. Probably I should research what service panel I need. Maybe I could get one just like I have and mount it upside down to normal. Is there something against code to do that? Service panel I have now is recessed between the wall studing and new one I would probably need to mount on outside of wall to make it work. I think I will go to an electrical supply house and tell them what I want to do and they can tell me what I need. Thanks Seven, I was looking for information like this. I will post what I find out at electrical supply store.
    :Dsolarvic:D
  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    That panel you linked to is a mickey mouse arrangement. The add-on bracket is a lockout arrangement so you cannot have the inverter feeder breaker (lower) active at the same time the grid main breaker (upper) is also on.

    They talk about UL conformance testing but nowhere on the site does it say the clap-trap add-on is UL approved. This can be outright rejected by your local inspector and/or cause problems with your homeowner's insurance.

    I doubt that any such arrangement could get UL approval.

    Check to see if there is 2" knock-out on the side of your box. If so you can drill out an associated hole in the side stud and connect to an adjacent aux box you install with a short piece of two inch conduit. Wire nuts are allowed to extend the wires of the breakers you want to be backed up, which are moved to the aux box. The inverter output feeds the aux box with an inverter passthrough.

    I assume you mean #00 aluminum wire to meter, not #2. #00 aluminum would be 150 amp service maximum.
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    00 wire is what I meant. I thought 2augt was the same thing. I have 100 amp service so am ok there. square d has a similar arangement for the generator lockout, only made from plastic. I will check out what you told me and see if there is a knockout on side of panel, then decide from there what to do. going to electrical supply store tomorrow and see what and all options there are. I just checked my service panel, not enough room on either side to side tap like you explained to me, but the box does have the big knockouts on the side. that is the reason I don,t want to use the sub panel. The inverter interlock for me is the way to go. I looked in my nec book and they seemed to approve them. Solarvic
  • Seven
    Seven Solar Expert Posts: 292 ✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.
    RCinFLA wrote: »

    Check to see if there is 2" knock-out on the side of your box. If so you can drill out an associated hole in the side stud and connect to an adjacent aux box you install with a short piece of two inch conduit. Wire nuts are allowed to extend the wires of the breakers you want to be backed up, which are moved to the aux box.

    I assume you mean #00 aluminum wire to meter, not #2. #00 aluminum would be 150 amp service maximum.

    Would there be anything wrong with pulling the wires out of the main panel and feeding them directly to the sub panel? I plan on doing something similar and had planned to just move the wires instead of putting nuts on them.
  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.
    Seven wrote: »
    Would there be anything wrong with pulling the wires out of the main panel and feeding them directly to the sub panel? I plan on doing something similar and had planned to just move the wires instead of putting nuts on them.

    If the wires are long enough. It is rare to have that much excess length.

    Just have to avoid the maximum current carrying limit for a given size of conduit. If you have extra 3/4" knock outs put more conduits between boxes.

    You can usually get most of your 15 amp and 20 amp lines bundled in a single 2" portal without exceeding the limit for 2" conduit.
  • Seven
    Seven Solar Expert Posts: 292 ✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    Thanks. I had to relocate the box because it was originally too high on the wall. I moved it closer to the house due to the wire not being long enough to drop the box. I moved it farther than I needed to, so I do have the extra length.
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    RC I wish I had the room beside my service panel to wire up just like your picture shows. My service panel has about 3" on left side and 5" in right side. my service panel is recessed inside the wall so that can,t work for me. My heaviest load in my service panel is the waterpump and I was planning on removing it from my service panel anyway. My 4000 watt inverter should cover all my loads that the sercice panel needs. All circuits come into bottom except for 2 on top which are very light loads. My grid feed line comes into bottom also. If I disconnected from Main circuit breaker I think there is enough wire to go thru top to another service panel. I could then use my current service panel as a subpanel and use the top service panel as my main panel. The grid imput to inverter would come from top panel, pass thru inverter from top panel to bottom panel. Also my pump and GT inverter could be connected to top panel. I wouldn,t even need that generator interlock kit I bought as the main circuit breaker on bottom panel wouldn,t be connected. My magnum inverter tracks the grid power and if grid goes down it automatically will turn on. I think I will get an identical square-d panel and put it diredtly above the one I have. That way all the knockout slots should match up. I hope I am not boreing you guys and making you mad at me for all the suggestions you give. Rc, I have followed your advice before so don,t think I always disregard your help and sugestions. Niel this is what I was asking you about basically. I didn,t want to buy the epanel, another $700.00 for something that I already have a piece of equipment that has most of the stuff the epanel has. The pc 500 panel has all the bells and whistles. biggest problem with all the things in it it is rather huge. Besides all the stuff it has that I previously posted it has a cutout and shunt for a battery meter installed and even had a builtin charge controler which I removed. I do think the epanel is nice but I ordered a conduit box and inverter mounting plate instead. Figured the money I save could go toward my battery purchase. :Dsolarvic:D
  • Seven
    Seven Solar Expert Posts: 292 ✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    Keep in mind that code won't allow you to put a panel very high on the wall. That is why I had to move mine in the first place.
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.
    Seven wrote: »
    Keep in mind that code won't allow you to put a panel very high on the wall. That is why I had to move mine in the first place.
    Top of panel would be 76 inch from floor. Guess I eill go measure my daughters and see how high hers is AS her house was only built about 3 years ago. my service box is only 18"in height and you have to stoop down for some of the breakers. I wish I could do mine side by side like RC,s picture. Solarvic.
  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    It's a good idea to have the aux panel the same manf. type, taking the same breakers the original main panel had. It eases cost for breakers.

    Mine had GE main panel so that's why my Aux panel is also GE.

    (NEC 404.8A) Center of grip of the operating handle of the highest breaker in the panel must not be more then 2.0 meter (6ft. 7in.) above the floor or working platform.
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    RC Glad to hear that I won,t exceed the height problems for the aux. panel box. Glad 7 pointed out that I could have problem if height limit was exceded. I had planned on getting same model and size panel so all the knockouts match. Thanks for the info.
    :Dsolarvic:D
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    I read my magnum inverter manual many many times and think I have my mind cleared up about how the inverter can be connected and used. All I should have to do is open the main circuit breaker if I want the inverter to invert or close it if I want it to be in standby. What I really wanted to do was AC couple since I have an unused gti inverter. You can do that with a magnum MS-PAE model but you can,t with the MS-AE model I have. I got a new plan now. With 3 GTI inverters I am afraid of making more power than approved for. So at night I open main circuit breaker and let inverter take power from battery all night and supply homes electrical system. Next morning when I get up I close the main circuit breaker and inverter quits inverting and battery charger takes power from grid to charge batterys. That way I just use my gti inverter instead of a charge controler. The Gti inverter is only an 1800 watt inverter so I think home load and battery charger should use all its output and none should be measured thru utility meter. On low production days I would,t open circuit breaker at night. Been having lots of low production days here because of all the rain and cloudy weather. I even had 1 day last week with 1kwh for whole day and a lot of 4 or 5 KWH days. On a good day I get somewhere between 20 and 30 KWh per day. I won,t know the capabilitys of my system till I start using it. Going to closely watch battery monitor and go from there. :Dsolarvic:D
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    What is a line side tap? i keep hearing about it here. I went to electrical supply house today and told them That I wanted to take power off the grid feed before it goes into the main breaker and they handed me the part I was looking for. The part is a burndy tap. The way it works is you disconnect the wire from main circuit breaker. Peel another inch of insulation of the wire. you slide the tap onto the wire till the insulation goesinside and bottoms out.You tighten the set screw and you should have enough wire coming thru to connect back to the main. There is another hole in the tap that you connect a piece of wire to go to the breaker in sub panel. This is all enclosed and insulated. Has UL and SA id stamped on the label. I already used these in my solar system wireing and inspecror passed them and one of the solar supplyers sells ones for smaller wire sizes. I didn,t know they made bigger ones .These are the sise for 2/0 wire. This sure makes my project more dooable. Is this what a lineside tap is? solarvic
  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    Line side tap is what the name implies. It connects in parallel to your main box input feed. It can be before your meter if your power company requires a separate meter to keep track of what you push to grid. Beware of this arrangement as they may pay you less for what you push even if it turns around and goes right back into you load service meter consumption.

    You don't have to worry about the 120% panel bus loading with a line side tap. Just cannot push more then your utility drop feed will support. Not likely an issue, unless you have a very large PV array.
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: how to wire into service panel.

    Thanks RC. for your patience with me. I don,t feel so discouraged now and due to some of your suggestions and knowledge I am confident that I now have a plan that works. :Dsolarvic:D