Led lights

rgs03833
rgs03833 Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭
in Energy Use & Conservation #1
Hi, I think we need dedications to LED with TIPS, TRICKS and DIY :)
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #2
    Re: Led lights

    If you want to look at LED's in detail--try the:

    Candle Power Forums

    I have read and posted for many years (not recently) over there. Lots of good information and discussions.

    The Forum is weighted towards flashlights--but low power and battery powered kind of covers our questions here too.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • rgs03833
    rgs03833 Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭
    #3
    Re: Led lights
    BB. wrote: »
    If you want to look at LED's in detail--try the:

    Candle Power Forums

    I have read and posted for many years (not recently) over there. Lots of good information and discussions.

    The Forum is weighted towards flashlights--but low power and battery powered kind of covers our questions here too.

    -Bill

    Thankx Bill, but I wish to be here... Running all over the Web makes me dizzy, LOL
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  • cruiser guy
    cruiser guy Solar Expert Posts: 87 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Led lights

    In a solar powered totally "off-grid" house, do LED lights make sense? These would likely be powered off the inverter to make replacement easier to come by.

    We have no lights purchased yet and could go any way we want to, even powered direct off the batteries if that is deemed to be far superior.

    We'd like enough light to be able to read a book by without causing eye strain. A single LED is NOT enough:D

    Looking for the solar guru's opinions here.

    The fixed lighting threads in the "Candle Power Forums" are mostly 3-4 years old. Has much changed? The results 3-4 years ago were not too impressive but we all know technology moves on.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #5
    Re: Led lights

    Lots of LED issues...

    First, LED's are frequently killed by overheating and they do not last very long. For "cheap" Tx LEDs (the plastic transistor cases) they frequently only last 100's of hours instead of 50,000-100,000 hours as advertised (look for browning/blackening in cheap LED fixtures).

    Next, filament bulbs are "self regulating" to a large degree... The hotter (whiter they get) the more resistance in the filament. LED's on the other hand, really should be fed with a dedicated current source. The higher the voltage, the current flow increases dramatically--Leading to very short life.

    There are many ways of ballasting LED's... Simple resistor (which wastes energy and is not very exact in current control). Capacitor (used on50/60 Hz AC power lines--Usually does not work well with MSW inverter--MSW will cause overheating). And electronic ballasts (work well but can have efficiency, reliability, and limited input voltage range).

    Off Grid deep cycle batteries actually have quite a wide operating range--From 10.5 to 15.5 volts or so... Not many of the "cheap" electronics (and DC power bricks for laptop computers, etc.) are designed for such wide power ranges and will either not work well (at low voltage) or may actually fail (at high voltages)--Since many where designed for automotive use of ~12-14.2 volt range.

    Regarding LED's, you almost have to do your own testing. See how they operate over 10.5-15.5 Volts DC. See if they work on MSW inverters (if you use MSW). And see if they get hot/last longer than a few hundred hours.

    If you look at the 120 VAC LED "bulbs" from the hardware store--the good quality ones are very heavy from all of the aluminum used for heat sinking. The light weight LED "bulbs" are cheaper, but I would be concerned about overheating.

    The Candlepowerforums (started as a flashlight forum) has a huge amount of information on LED's and lots of testing results.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Led lights

    Costco is just recently selling the PAR led's for recessed lighting from FEIT now. I was going to pick-up some to try. Heard anything Bill ?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Led lights

    I've been buying 120vac LED blubs at Home Depot & Lowes.
    They are getting cheaper these days and some of the new ones are more efficient than CFLs..

    http://www.lowes.com/pd_338802-75774-LA19DM/LED_?PL=1&productId=3341246

    A 40-Watt Equivalent Indoor Warm White LED Light Bulb using 7.5 watts isn't bad.

    They Blink!
    The main problem that I'm seeing with the dimmable LED blubs is their sensitivity
    to any change in line voltage or maybe it's just noise on the AC line.?.


    The one 60-Watt Equivalent LED that we have is not on a dimmer,
    http://ecorenovator.org/forum/lighting/1795-pretty-inexpensive-led-bulbs-2.html#post16447
    and it never blinks at all.

    So far, I have not found an LED light dimmer that I like. I believe the designs
    of these "CFL & LED" dimmers has been made Obsolete by newer LED bulbs that use less power.
    I have a dinning table fixture using five 7.5w LED (40w Eq), so at max it's 37.5 watts!
    At 1/3 brightness, is 12 or 13 watts.. The dimmer is rated for 600w!
    So, it seems like these fancy ($22) dimmers aren't even feeling the load..
    Replace one of the LED with incandescent, and the dimmer works a lot better..

    My advice is to skip buying a dimmer and use a plain old Off-On switch..
    Just buy the brightness level you want to start with.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #8
    Re: Led lights

    No, I have not... But I have not been paying attention either.

    Cost did sell those cluster of LED lamps a couple years ago--and when they had earlier life failure, they offered customers their money back.

    In general, Costco does have some pretty good return policies--So if they don't work well, you can always take them back.

    I just bought a couple of the LED security lamps (roughly $55 or so--pretty expensive until you factor in the cost of LED's). My last cheap set of standard motion detectors lasted about 6 years before the detector/controller failed and they stayed on all night. Will be interesting to see if these new LED fixtures last any longer. So far, they are working well (grid powered).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #9
    Re: Led lights

    I agree even the dimmable CFL lamps are barely acceptable functionally.

    I put 6 CFL's (replaced ~130 watt floods) on a regular wall dimmer and found that the dimmer will take the lamp output down a bit (just enough to have less glare at night when watching TV)--and any lower, they blink or turn off.

    It would have better if there where two switches--2+4 lamps or something similar.

    Dimmed CFL's and LED's also don't have the "warm" feeling or wide output range of a dimmed filament bulb on a standard dimmer (I try to use halogens). At this point, I would not dim them either.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • DavidOH
    DavidOH Solar Expert Posts: 112 ✭✭✭
    #10
    Leds and CCL-vs- CFL

    Another Option Cold Cathode Light:
    http://www.svc.com/clk12wt2.html

    LED are great if you don't need to light a large area.
    Cold Cathode Light is a better option IMHO than CFLs.
    My compact flouros are yellowish. The CCL are bright white. :cool:

    LED's and CCL can both run from 12 volts so you do not need an AC inverter for lighting.
    They are available at many computer stores/websites. ;)
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Led lights

    I like the dimmable 15W CFL's from FEIT at Costco. They are soft and dim enough for me. Maybe if I was dating and trying to make moves in the kitchen I might want something that dimmed more than 20%. I think I will try the LED's and see!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Led lights
    Dave Sparks wrote: »
    I like the dimmable 15W CFL's from FEIT at Costco. They are soft and dim enough for me. Maybe if I was dating and trying to make moves in the kitchen I might want something that dimmed more than 20%. I think I will try the LED's and see!

    If you find an LED dimmer brand that actually works, please PM me..
    Because, it seems like the only thing they changed in these new Lutron dimmers,
    is to add an adjustment pot, so the bottom end can be pre-set.
    (You can change the adjustment when the cover plate is off).

    It (supposedly) allows you to set the bottom end of the dimmer, so that it will
    fire up the LED/CFL lamps, when you hit the On button.
    (No matter where the brightness control has been left).

    I think my LED fixtures might be getting spoofed by the line voltage jumping around between 114 & 126 volts.. :grr
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  • cruiser guy
    cruiser guy Solar Expert Posts: 87 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: Led lights

    I posted at the "Candle Power Forum" and got some leads on the LED lights for a fixed application. Most of it is geared to the boating scene and consequently expensive and not bright enough. Those that might work only have 140 lumens and cost over $200 ea.! For that price I can get a few more panels instead of outfitting the house with dim $200 lights and have brighter light in the form of tube type fluorescents that are easily replaced locally.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Led lights
    cruiser guy wrote: »
    I posted at the "Candle Power Forum" and got some leads on the LED lights for a fixed application. Most of it is geared to the boating scene and consequently expensive and not bright enough. Those that might work only have 140 lumens and cost over $200 ea.! For that price I can get a few more panels instead of outfitting the house with dim $200 lights and have brighter light in the form of tube type fluorescents that are easily replaced locally.

    "Dim $200. lights" ? WOW! Rip off! I pay nothing like that! More like $18.00 for a 60watt equivalent (Lights of America) and very satisfied with them. And the price will only go down. Remember when many years ago when CFL first appeared. I paid $55 for a 18 watt as a Christmas gift and was later told it didn't last 3 weeks. Now I can buy them for $2 and they last 10 years.
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  • RandomJoe
    RandomJoe Solar Expert Posts: 472 ✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: Led lights

    I now have four LED bulbs, think they're Philips brand - got them at Home Depot. The 2W candelabra is now in my porch light, which basically stays on 24x7 (the porch is heavily shaded). If it lasts more than a year, it's saved enough electricity to cover the cost. So far so good, about 8-9 months in! ;)

    I have a 7W "40W equiv" bulb in my desk lamp. Looks just like a regular bulb, except for the finned heatsink at the base, does a nice job. Barely gets warm.

    And I have two 12W "60W equiv" bulbs in a torchiere lamp in the living room. They do a decent job lighting the room, that's the most-used lamp in the house and I wanted to see how long they last thus why I put them in it. I used to have a 25W CFL and 75W incandescent in it. Only reason I got a second of these bulbs is because HD recently cut the price in half! Still pricey, though.

    The only problem I have found thus far is with the 12W bulbs. There is a very noticeable second or two delay between flipping the switch and the bulbs coming on. Not a huge issue, but it does annoy me for some reason! Both bulbs do it, exactly the same delay too, so apparently not a one-off defect.

    Of course, as with CFLs, the "equivalent wattage" ratings are quite optimistic. I think they were even more so with the LEDs, though.
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: Led lights

    I took my new dimmer back to HomeDepot and went back to the old one..
    It won't come on when the slider is all the way down, but it works pretty good,
    using 4 LED 40w eq in the fixture..
    Above the dinner table, we have 5 of the 40w eq :LEDs and they work pretty good too.
    The dimmer is a bit flaky, but it's it's new tech.. :blush:
    One 60w eq LED in the den table lamp works great (no dimmer). It' Bright!
    It's the lamp we keep on the most during the evenings and early mornings.

    We have replaced all other incandescent bulbs inside the house with CFLs..
    Outdoors, we have replaced about 50% of the old security flood lights with CFL floods.
    And found them pretty weak. The slow power-up is not what you want for a motion sensor flood..

    I'm doing all this, because I want to cut back on power use where I can now,
    that I've installed a second 24,000 BTU Sanyo mini-split for heating and cooling..
    It's very efficient, but it's still going to run up the power bill a bit..
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Led lights

    They are awesome heaters ! Still trying to get down to Costco in the big city for some of the 65 watt equivalent LED's. What excuse is there this week:roll:
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: Led lights

    Most LED lights use a capacitor as series ballast. It relies on smooth sinewave to achieve the correct amount of current.

    Problem with wall switch dimmers is they are triac based where there is an abrupt voltage step at the point they conduct. This causes a high current spike through the LED and can damage the LED associated surge filter cap or surge protecting zener diode. This protection is not designed to take continous repetitive surges caused by the dimmer triac.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: Led lights
    RCinFLA wrote: »
    Most LED lights use a capacitor as series ballast. It relies on smooth sinewave to achieve the correct amount of current.

    Problem with wall switch dimmers is they are triac based where there is an abrupt voltage step at the point they conduct. This causes a high current spike through the LED and can damage the LED associated surge filter cap or surge protecting zener diode. This protection is not designed to take continuous repetitive surges caused by the dimmer triac.

    Sounds like MSW inverters would also shorten their lives as well then. Should be a heads-up for those running MSW.
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: Led lights
    waynefromnscanada wrote: »
    Sounds like MSW inverters would also shorten their lives as well then. Should be a heads-up for those running MSW.

    I'll bet MSW doesn't do CFLs much good either..
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  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: Led lights
    XRinger wrote: »
    I'll bet MSW doesn't do CFLs much good either..

    CFL work differently. They have a rectifier-filter capacitor to create high voltage DC. This DC is fed to a chopper at 25kHz to 40kHz to create square wave. This is fed to a small high frequency ferrite core inductor ballast that sets the amount of current to bulb.

    The only problem that sometimes happens with CFL on MSW inverter is the peak voltage of MSW is only about 155 volts compared to 169 volts for normal 120vrms sinewave. This means the high voltage DC created is less. Most will be a little dimmer on MSW. Sometimes as bulbs age they have starting problems on MSW.

    This high frequency chopper arrangement can be designed to run an LED but it cost more and takes more room in the base. High power LED's also create a lot of heat that must be dissipated that takes up more room in the base for the heat sink.

    And yes, running a cap based ballasted LED on MSM will cause current spikes and may damage the expensive light. It is probably the surge limiter circuit that would go first, after that the LED is subject to the current spikes.
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: Led lights

    Yeah, LEDs to generate some heat. But when I see LEDs using a total of 6 or 8 watts,
    I don't get too concerned about the heat coming off the heat sink.. :)

    Heck, putting two 100w eq (23w actual) CLFs in the kitchen light fixture
    is going to run way cooler than a pair of 60w incandescent blubs..

    My fav so far is the 3rd one down on this page.
    Feit Electric: It's the Bright Thing To Do.®


    60 Watt Equivalent
    • 800 Lumens
    • 13.5 Watts
    • 25000 Hours
    • 3000K Color Temp
    • A19 Semi Omni Directional LED
    A19_DM_800_LED.jpg

    It's super bight and at 13.5w isn't going to heat up the room very much.. :)
    You can't hold on to the heat sink too long.. :p
    Makes a 60w eq CFL look pretty weak..
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  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭✭
    #23
    Re: Led lights
    XRinger wrote: »
    Yeah, LEDs to generate some heat. But when I see LEDs using a total of 6 or 8 watts,
    I don't get too concerned about the heat coming off the heat sink.. :)

    Heck, putting two 100w eq (23w actual) CLFs in the kitchen light fixture
    is going to run way cooler than a pair of 60w incandescent blubs..

    My fav so far is the 3rd one down on this page.
    Feit Electric: It's the Bright Thing To Do.®


    60 Watt Equivalent
    • 800 Lumens
    • 13.5 Watts
    • 25000 Hours
    • 3000K Color Temp
    • A19 Semi Omni Directional LED
    A19_DM_800_LED.jpg

    It's super bight and at 13.5w isn't going to heat up the room very much.. :)
    You can't hold on to the heat sink too long.. :p
    Makes a 60w eq CFL look pretty weak..

    It is not a matter of how much it heats up the room. It is a matter of how hot the LED gets which accelerates failure modes.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #24
    Re: Led lights
    XRinger wrote: »
    I'll bet MSW doesn't do CFLs much good either..

    Actually I've used CFL's for a number of years on MSW with no probs, then finally I got pure sine, and now pretty much changed over to LED. Those CFL's that I've opened up had a rectifer with filter cap power supply, and some had a voltage doubler, with the actual electronics powering the lamp running on roughly 130 Volts DC, or 200 volts DC, depending on design, so the MSW wasn't an issue with any of the ones I used. The ones with the simple rectifier/filter cap would also operate on straight 120 VDC, only thing is, if the lamp rectifer was a single diode and not full wave bridge, you had to watch the + and - otherwise it wouldn't work.
    Of course there may well have been other designs that would be damaged by MSW, and the oldest of all had a heavy transformer type ballast with either a manual, or automatic, neon-thermal starter switch, and the MSW didn't bother those, other than the extra buzz from the ballast.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #25
    Re: Led lights
    RCinFLA wrote: »
    It is not a matter of how much it heats up the room. It is a matter of how hot the LED gets which accelerates failure modes.

    Exactly! You want them to run as cool as possible, so they will last. I have one little 4 watt flood light and it ran so warm I knew it wouldn't last long in normal use, so moved it to a place where it would only ever be on for perhaps a minute at a time, that way it doesn't get a chance to get hot.
    If it runs so hot you can't hold your hand on it, it ain't gonna last. Simple as that.
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  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭✭
    #26
    Re: Led lights

    The other factor on LED lights is the longevity of the phosphor. Like fluorescent lights, the emission energy is blue/UV light which excites the phoshor coating to create white light.

    When you buy different color temp specs you are getting different phosphor mix to create 'soft white' or 'cool white' The higher the color temp the stronger the spectrum toward the blue end and weaker the red spectrum end. Luminous output on high color temp lights are greater for equivalent input power but you have to put up with the strong blue end spectrum light quality.

    Makes it hard to tell dark brown socks from navy blue socks, especially in the morning when you are half asleep.

    This phoshor degrades over time, dropping the light output.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #27
    Re: Led lights
    RCinFLA wrote: »
    The other factor on LED lights is the longevity of the phosphor. Like fluorescent lights, the emission energy is blue/UV light which excites the phoshor coating to create white light.

    When you buy different color temp specs you are getting different phosphor mix to create 'soft white' or 'cool white' The higher the color temp the stronger the spectrum toward the blue end and weaker the red spectrum end. Luminous output on high color temp lights are greater for equivalent input power but you have to put up with the strong blue end spectrum light quality.

    Makes it hard to tell dark brown socks from navy blue socks, especially in the morning when you are half asleep.

    This phoshor degrades over time, dropping the light output.

    Yes, the hi-color temp ones remind me of Mercury vapor street lights, very poor color rendition. I'm finding it difficult to find them in the mid-range color temp, they seem to be mostly warm white, or the other extreme. Many of us want something neutral, why are they so scarce ?
    I've also started seeing LED "bulbs" that look like the phosphor is no longer in the LED package, but instead, is on the inside of the glass "bulb". A great design. Was very impressed with one I saw the other day. Was so bright it almost hurt the eyes to look at it, even with sun streaming in the windows. Shame it was way too bluish for my liking.
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #28
    Re: Led lights

    Do the dimmable type LED power supplies (built-in to the base) use diode input?

    If they do, it seems like an older type dimmer with an asymmetrical AC output,
    might make LED lamps in an (4 or 6 blubs) array act up.. (All blink in unison).

    So, could inverting the power input on half the lamps, even out the load a bit??
    (Make the load on the dimmer a little cleaner?).

    Maybe only allow half the LEDs to blink at a time? :confused:
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #29
    Re: Led lights

    Several of the 120 volt LED lamps I have, emit a fair amount of RFI that screws up my car radio (on FM) when the car is near them. Obviously they use some sort of HF switching in their ballast and control circuitry. Interesting.
    Also states on the pacakage they came in that this could happen.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #30
    Re: Led lights

    Diode/rectifiers in power supplies can also be very noisy electrically.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Ravs
    Ravs Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭
    #31
    Re: Led lights

    Highly rated and tested LED A-lamp replacement for 60W, and it is dimmable with standard residential line side dimming at Home depot.com

    http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Light-Bulbs-LED/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm79/R-202530170/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
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