kitchen appliance off of small setup

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Comments

  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    Personal opinion, I think you would do better just oversizing a standard lead acid battery bank - both in cost and in ease of moving the batteries around. Some of the same benefits as a forklift battery of longer life since you would discharge the bank to a much lower DOD with the same load (look up Peukert effect), plus less effects from sulfation since you have more lead to start with. And you don't have to oversize your PV array as much as you would for a forklift battery.

    Another option is flooded NiCad, but they aren't cheap. http://www.sbsbattery.com/PDFs/Cat05-KP-KB.pdf Some benefits are 20+ year lifetime, ability to be discharged to 100% DOD, ability to be stored at 100% DOD, no sulfation like lead acid, long watering intervals. They are also compatible with lead-acid chargers and are fine with the 10.5 volt cutoff many inverters have.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    I need your help now:

    A battery place in Puerto Rico is offering me these two batteries:

    EATON VRLA, 12 VOLTS, 150 AMPS ($190 EACH plus tax);

    TRACE, 6VOLTS, 225 AMPS DEEP CYCLE. ($95, PLUS TAX)

    I REALLY need your advice here, since I do not know the vrla sealed batteries. I do know the TRACE batteries, since almost all my friends with RE systems use or have used them, and I know they are good. But it was the first time I saw those strange gray batteries.

    Both brands are absolutely new, In fact, both have "june 2011" stamped.

    Since I was dreaming of NOT having to water more batteries, I ask:

    Are those EATON VRLA any good?
    Is the price "right"?
    Can I (or should I) use them in my system?
    Much more important: Is my MX60 CC able to charge them?

    Reminder: As I have said previously, my system consists of 6 kyoceras (130) in series parallel, and my old and damaged GC batteries were in "float" for 3 or 4 hours a day almost always.

    PS: Those Eaton are very similar to the last one (bottom) in this page: http://powerquality.eaton.com/DC-Power/Batteries/6-12V.asp
  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    Since there were no answers, I repeat the following post, just in case nobody saw it..
    Please, if anyone know anything about these batteries, do advise me.
    I appreciate.



    JESSICA wrote: »
    I need your help now:

    A battery place in Puerto Rico is offering me these two batteries:

    EATON VRLA, 12 VOLTS, 150 AMPS ($190 EACH plus tax);

    TRACE, 6VOLTS, 225 AMPS DEEP CYCLE. ($95, PLUS TAX)

    I REALLY need your advice here, since I do not know the vrla sealed batteries. I do know the TRACE batteries, since almost all my friends with RE systems use or have used them, and I know they are good. But it was the first time I saw those strange gray batteries.

    Both brands are absolutely new, In fact, both have "june 2011" stamped.

    Since I was dreaming of NOT having to water more batteries, I ask:

    Are those EATON VRLA any good?
    Is the price "right"?
    Can I (or should I) use them in my system?
    Much more important: Is my MX60 CC able to charge them?

    Reminder: As I have said previously, my system consists of 6 kyoceras (130) in series parallel, and my old and damaged GC batteries were in "float" for 3 or 4 hours a day almost always.

    PS: Those Eaton are very similar to the last one (bottom) in this page: http://powerquality.eaton.com/DC-Power/Batteries/6-12V.asp
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    i'm quite sure people saw it, but it is probably a case of unfamiliarity with them too. i looked up the eaton company and saw they specialize in backups. i'm not too sure if the batteries would be agm or gel though as they weren't specific on the website.

    i didn't look up the other one and i never heard of them either and appears to have the same name as an older line of re equipment had. riding old coat tails maybe? i don't know.

    you may have to rely on your own best judgment.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,422 admin
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    Looking around and found some documents.

    And from one sheet:

    Powerware 12V, 150Ah VRLA
    Technical Specifications
    Nominal Voltage 12V
    Nominal capacity 150Ah(C10)
    Design life 12 years
    Operating
    temperature -20 to 50 oC
    Grid alloy Calcium / Tin lead alloy
    Plates Flat pasted
    Seperator Absorbant Glass Mat (Gel version available on request)
    Active material Very high purity lead (99.9999%)
    Case and cover ABS Flame retardant (non retardant on request)
    Charge voltage Float 2.25 - 2.27 VPC @ 25 oC, cycling 2.35 VPC @ 25 oC
    Max 2.4 VPC Max ripple 0.05C (A)
    Electrolyte Sulphuric acid, analytical grade purity
    Venting valve EPDM rubber 2 psi (14kPa) approx. release pressure.
    Resealing at 1.2 psi (8.4 kPa)
    Terminal Insert M6 thread. Epoxy sealed by extended
    mechanical paths
    Torque setting The recommended torque value for all types is 5-7 Nm
    Cables Connectors, cables, terminal covers on request
    Typical applications Telecommunications, Solar, UPS, Medical
    Dimensions (mm) (L)550 (W)110 (H)285
    Weight 47.72kg
    Part No. 115425
    Assuming the batteries are you are looking at are AGM (and not GEL), then from their specifications, they seem to be very nice batteries.

    I did not find anything else about the batteries (other than this discharge table--Powerware 12VFT Discharge Tables). Or any warranty information.

    There is a backup power system where their hardware recharges a 450 AH battery bank at 93 Amps (rated):

    EBE, External Battery & Power Enclosure
    • 93 amps / 450 AH = 0.21 = 21% rate of charge--Seems fine for solar
    From their warranty page (may apply mostly to their UPS systems?):
    Factory Warranty
    We are so confident about the performance and reliability of the Eaton UPS and battery system they are backed by a two-year factory warranty. For Powerware series 3 and 5 UPSs, a three-year factory warranty is available with product registration. We will repair or replace the warranted item via our depot repair service and pay for the shipment of the replacement product to you. In addition, telephone technical support is always available.

    In other places on their website, they seemed to talk about a 3 year battery warranty too.

    Here is Eaton's Battery Handbook:

    UPS Battery Handbook

    That was about all I could find.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    Bill and Niel:

    Thanks for your replies.

    Niel: Regarding “you may have to rely on your own best judgment…” I say: My own best judgment has proven disastrous in the past. That’s the reason I cherish your advice!

    Bill: Would it make any difference, GEL or AGM?

    I will go to the store tomorrow again, to check whether they are AGM or GEL, if the label shows it.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,422 admin
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    From our Host's NAWS Battery FAQ:
    Gelled electrolyte

    Gelled batteries, or "Gel Cells" contain acid that has been "gelled" by the addition of Silica Gel, turning the acid into a solid mass that looks like gooey Jell-O. The advantage of these batteries is that it is impossible to spill acid even if they are broken. However, there are several disadvantages. One is that they must be charged at a slower rate (C/20) to prevent excess gas from damaging the cells. They cannot be fast charged on a conventional automotive charger or they may be permanently damaged. This is not usually a problem with solar electric systems, but if an auxiliary generator or inverter bulk charger is used, current must be limited to the manufacturers specifications. Most better inverters commonly used in solar electric systems can be set to limit charging current to the batteries.
    Some other disadvantages of gel cells is that they must be charged at a lower voltage (2/10th's less) than flooded or AGM batteries. If overcharged, voids can develop in the gel which will never heal, causing a loss in battery capacity. In hot climates, water loss can be enough over 2-4 years to cause premature battery death. It is for this and other reasons that we no longer sell any of the gelled cells except for replacement use. The newer AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries have all the advantages (and then some) of gelled, with none of the disadvantages.

    AGM, or Absorbed Glass Mat Batteries

    A newer type of sealed battery uses "Absorbed Glass Mats", or AGM between the plates. This is a very fine fiber Boron-Silicate glass mat. These type of batteries have all the advantages of gelled, but can take much more abuse. We sell the Concorde (and Lifeline, made by Concorde) AGM batteries. These are also called "starved electrolyte", as the mat is about 95% saturated rather than fully soaked. That also means that they will not leak acid even if broken.

    AGM batteries have several advantages over both gelled and flooded, at about the same cost as gelled:

    Since all the electrolyte (acid) is contained in the glass mats, they cannot spill, even if broken. This also means that since they are non-hazardous, the shipping costs are lower. In addition, since there is no liquid to freeze and expand, they are practically immune from freezing damage.

    Nearly all AGM batteries are "recombinant" - what that means is that the Oxygen and Hydrogen recombine INSIDE the battery. These use gas phase transfer of oxygen to the negative plates to recombine them back into water while charging and prevent the loss of water through electrolysis. The recombining is typically 99+% efficient, so almost no water is lost.

    The charging voltages are the same as for any standard battery - no need for any special adjustments or problems with incompatible chargers or charge controls. And, since the internal resistance is extremely low, there is almost no heating of the battery even under heavy charge and discharge currents. The Concorde (and most AGM) batteries have no charge or discharge current limits.

    AGM's have a very low self-discharge - from 1% to 3% per month is usual. This means that they can sit in storage for much longer periods without charging than standard batteries. The Concorde batteries can be almost fully recharged (95% or better) even after 30 days of being totally discharged.

    AGM's do not have any liquid to spill, and even under severe overcharge conditions hydrogen emission is far below the 4% max specified for aircraft and enclosed spaces. The plates in AGM's are tightly packed and rigidly mounted, and will withstand shock and vibration better than any standard battery.
    Even with all the advantages listed above, there is still a place for the standard flooded deep cycle battery. AGM's will cost 2 to 3 times as much as flooded batteries of the same capacity. In many installations, where the batteries are set in an area where you don't have to worry about fumes or leakage, a standard or industrial deep cycle is a better economic choice. AGM batteries main advantages are no maintenance, completely sealed against fumes, Hydrogen, or leakage, non-spilling even if they are broken, and can survive most freezes. Not everyone needs these features.
    Short answer, avoid GEL batteries.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,422 admin
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup
    JESSICA wrote: »
    Niel: Regarding “you may have to rely on your own best judgment…” I say: My own best judgment has proven disastrous in the past. That’s the reason I cherish your advice!

    I have had my failures too (whole new solar array after 5 years)--At least my vendors did replace the panels and stuff... And I will not go into my other "best judgment mistakes".:cry::grr

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup
    JESSICA wrote: »
    Bill and Niel:

    Thanks for your replies.

    Niel: Regarding “you may have to rely on your own best judgment…” I say: My own best judgment has proven disastrous in the past. That’s the reason I cherish your advice!

    Bill: Would it make any difference, GEL or AGM?

    I will go to the store tomorrow again, to check whether they are AGM or GEL, if the label shows it.


    the companies are still unknown no matter how much info we dig up as i don't believe anybody here is using batteries from either company to say one or the other. with me it's neither unless i am willing to take the chance with them. for the price on the fla it seems consistent with other generic fla type batteries. if the eaton is an agm then this is an excellent price for that many ah.

    i think i'd be tempted with the agms, but i'm biased to them anyway. i'm not a big help here with your decision and as i said we don't know if they are good.
  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup
    niel wrote: »
    the companies are still unknown no matter how much info we dig up as i don't believe anybody here is using batteries from either company to say one or the other. with me it's neither unless i am willing to take the chance with them. for the price on the fla it seems consistent with other generic fla type batteries. if the eaton is an agm then this is an excellent price for that many ah.

    i think i'd be tempted with the agms, but i'm biased to them anyway. i'm not a big help here with your decision and as i said we don't know if they are good.

    Thanks for your effort and help.

    I do know Tracer batteries, because, as I have said, many friends with RE system have or have had them. I do not know who makes them. They look very similar to Trojan 105.

    According to their label, the Eaton batteries are 150 amps/C10, which I think means 10 hours, not the common 20hrs rating.

    I will keep you informed, though I think I will go for the Tracer batteries: cheaper and known.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,422 admin
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    The c/10 hour rating is a bit lower than the 20 hour rating.

    But nothing bad about 10 hour ratings.

    We just use 20 hour as out is typically close to how off grid folks use power.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup
    BB. wrote: »
    The c/10 hour rating is a bit lower than the 20 hour rating.

    But nothing bad about 10 hour ratings.

    We just use 20 hour as out is typically close to how off grid folks use power.

    -Bill

    Bill, pardon me, but I don't understand.
    Isn't c/10 hour rating exactly half of 20hrs rating?
    As I understood it, a 150 amps/10hrs battery has exactly half the capacity of a 150 amps/20 hrs battery, and it doesn't matter if they are AGMs or Flooded Golf Cart.
    Am I wrong?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,422 admin
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    No--Not really...

    One way to look at a battery is it has internal resistance (and chemical processes that can only move so fast).

    If you discharge your 150 AH battery in ten hours it will have 150 AH of capacity. If you discharge it in 1 hour--it will have less than 150 AH of apparent capacity, the rest of the energy will be wasted in heating up the battery (and chemical processes that cannot as quickly convert at high current levels).

    Conversely, if you discharge the battery over 100 hours, it will supply more than 150 AH...

    Here is a sample charge from Concorde Sun Extender:
    [FONT=Fixedsys]          2   8   24  48  120 Hour
    PVX-1530T 120 136 153 167 179 Amp*Hours[/FONT]
    

    OK, the Amp*Hour rating of the above battery is ~153 AH with a C/24 hour rate. Or, looking at it as how many amps can you draw over XX hours from a battery:
    • 120 AH / 2 hours = 60 amps (over two hours)
    • 153 AH / 24 hours = 6.375 (over 24 hours)
    • 179 AH / 120 hours = 1.49 amps (over 120 hours)
    The slower you discharge a battery, the more "efficient" it is.

    Also, AGM batteries tend to be "more efficient" vs Flooded Cell Lead Acid Batteries (the above capacity will fall faster as you approach C/2 with flooded cell batteries).

    One term for this is the Peukert Factor.

    Peukert's law
    Peukert's law, presented by the German scientist W. Peukert in 1897, expresses the capacity of a lead-acid battery in terms of the rate at which it is discharged. As the rate increases, the battery's available capacity decreases.
    Manufacturers rate the capacity of a battery with reference to a discharge time. For example, a battery might be rated at 100 A·h when discharged at a rate that will fully discharge the battery in 20 hours. In this example, the discharge current would be 5 amperes. If the battery is discharged in a shorter time, with a higher current, the delivered capacity is less. Peukert's law describes an exponential relationship between the discharge current (normalized to some base rated current) and delivered capacity (nomalized to the rated capacity), over some specified range of discharge currents. If the exponent constant was one, the delivered capacity would be independent of the current. For a lead-acid battery however, the value of k is typically between 1.1 and 1.3. It generally ranges from 1.05 - 1.15 for VRSLAB AGM batteries, 1.1-1.25 for Gel, and 1.2-1.6 for Flooded Batteries. [1] The Peukert constant varies according to the age of the battery, generally increasing with age. Application at low discharge rates must take into account the battery self-discharge current. At very high currents, practical batteries will give even less capacity than predicted from a fixed exponent. The equation does not allow for the effect of temperature on battery capacity.

    By the way, Peukert's Law is a "model" of battery capacity. It actually is based on physical battery chemistry and construction that have multiple factors--not just one.

    However, back a century or so ago, they first lumped all the variables into one and called it Peukert's Law--after the guy studying batteries.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    Awsome!

    You moderators should be paid for your knowledge, effort and all the help you give to us. (I mean it!)

    Thanks again.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    as bb showed you that 150ah rating at 10hrs will more than likely be around 160-165ah for 20hrs. i think i'd still be tempted with these agms, but that's just me. if you know others with the fla battery then you already know how it will perform and you are 1 leg up on us with it.

    i think i can speak for all the mods as i believe i can say thanks for the praise,:blush: but nearly everybody here volunteers their time, knowledge, and/or experiences so it should be spread out to more than us mods.8)
  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup
    JESSICA wrote: »
    I need your help now:

    A battery place in Puerto Rico is offering me these two batteries:

    EATON VRLA, 12 VOLTS, 150 AMPS ($190 EACH plus tax);

    TRACE, 6VOLTS, 225 AMPS DEEP CYCLE. ($95, PLUS TAX)

    I REALLY need your advice here, since I do not know the vrla sealed batteries. I do know the TRACE batteries, since almost all my friends with RE systems use or have used them, and I know they are good. But it was the first time I saw those strange gray batteries.

    Hi:

    Finally, I bought the Trace batteries. Since they are very similar to Trojan T105, I emailed Trojan to ask about Absorbing, Float, and Equalization settings. This was their reply:

    The bulk / absorb setting for a 24 volt system using T105 batteries is 29.6 volts. The system would float at 26.4 volts and you would equalize at 31.0 volts. All of these setting can be found on our website if you need additional information. Please look for a follow-up email from me where I will attach our Battery User's Guide for general information regarding use, maintenance and trouble-shooting your new batteries. This email system does not allow attachments, or I would sent it now. Thanks.
    If you have additional comments or questions, please contact me at the information below.
    Sincerely,
    Stacey Delzeit
    Product Engineer
    Trojan Battery Company

    Again, I would really appreciate your advise here. Are those settings right? If so, what would be the duration of each stage?
    About one year ago, some members of this Forum told me that Absorb setting for my previous bank (identical to the new one) should be 28.6; and float should be 27.4. Which ones are right?

    Here is a pic of the batt,:
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    Trojan's numbers are right for Trojan batteries. Not every manufacturer likes the same figures. Lots of technical stuff about internal battery chemistry. Absorb Voltage on a 24 Volt system may run 28.4 to 29.6 - depending on the batteries. Also depending on the application: not everyone's DVM reads the same.

    So here's what you do: start with an Absorb set point of 29.6 Volts. See how much water the batteries lose in a week. If you're having to add water to keep the level up in that time, back off the Voltage. Alternately you can start with 28.8 Volts and go up, if you can check the SG after a charge and see if it's "full".

    I'm sorry but without actual manufacturer's recommended levels you have to do a bit of "artistic judgment" on Voltages. Remember a hot climate will want lower Voltages; battery temp sensors are really good for any extreme climate. You might also find you get better performance with an elevated Float level like 27.6.

    This is where science meets ... mumbo-jumbo? Maybe "intuition" is a better word. :p
  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    So here's what you do: start with an Absorb set point of 29.6 Volts. See how much water the batteries lose in a week. If you're having to add water to keep the level up in that time, back off the Voltage. Alternately you can start with 28.8 Volts and go up, if you can check the SG after a charge and see if it's "full".

    I'm sorry but without actual manufacturer's recommended levels you have to do a bit of "artistic judgment" on Voltages. Remember a hot climate will want lower Voltages; battery temp sensors are really good for any extreme climate. You might also find you get better performance with an elevated Float level like 27.6.

    This is where science meets ... mumbo-jumbo? Maybe "intuition" is a better word. :p

    Thanks

    I forgot to tell you that I did not buy the Eatons because they are gel.
    The TRACE I bought seems to be generic batts., manufactured by some Company to the specs. of the dealer. As I said, they are very similar to Trojan 105.
  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    Hi:
    I just bought a new pure sine inverter (AIMS, 1500 watts)
    My question is this: Can I power my Sanyo mini split a/c with my system now?
    As some of you may remember, I can harvest around 5 kilos a day, sometimes more, and much energy goes to waste because energy use in day hours is small (less than2 kilos), Today, for example, I had full sunlight all day long, and temps were above 90.
    The Sanyo unit uses only around 300 watts when the fan is set to low, but panels produces more than 700 from 10 am to 3 pm.
    Is there anything else I should consider?
    System: 6 Kyoceras 130 in series/ parallel; new aims 1,500 psw; 4 golf cart batteries, 225 amps.
    Thanks


    Here is a pic of the batt,:[/QUOTE]
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup
    JESSICA wrote: »
    Hi:
    I just bought a new pure sine inverter (AIMS, 1500 watts)
    My question is this: Can I power my Sanyo mini split a/c with my system now? ...

    Only if it starts it. You have to manage, on a ongoing basis, when to run and when to charge your batteries.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    Re: kitchen appliance off of small setup

    Mike:

    It is the inverter-type a/c. It starts very slowly (13 watts) and then goes up step by step to 300 watts.
    My question is: Can powering it with my system hurt in any way my battery bank?
    I think you don't know it, but it seems I ruined my previous batteries powering a 1400 watts water heater!