Local Zoning denied PV system

kodioneill
kodioneill Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
in PV Installers Forum - NEC, Wiring, Installation #1
My local government just denied my PV design. Their position , it's a business
( because you're selling power back to the grid) in a residential zoned area. Three years planning, I have all the elements for an install and I'm shutdown right at the start . I live out in the country far away from setbacks and neighbors.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system

    If your local utility allows grid-tie with sell-back they might also have someone on staff capable of explaining the obvious to the local authority who seems a bit lacking in the intelligence department. Failing that, there is always the next level of government: if the State permits it (and in some cases they mandate it) then your local AHJ is in violation of state law for denying permission based on what can only be called "improper reasoning". If that proves a wash, perhaps a nearby TV station would like to do a story on how the local government is anti-ecology and in favour of everyone choking to death on smog.

    Bureaucrats: give them even a small amount of authority and they will abuse it. :roll:
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,658 admin
    #3
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system

    You can look through the www.dsireusa.org website and see if there are any state/federal laws that would change the outcome for your system (commercial solar is a new one on me for denial).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    #4
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system

    where do you live? a letter to your city council would be the first step. state senator/house of rep would be next.

    There might be a law that protects you from this BS.
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  • bmet
    bmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system

    Are you trying to do this with home-made panels?
    kodioneill wrote: »
    My local government just denied my PV design. Their position , it's a business
    ( because you're selling power back to the grid) in a residential zoned area. Three years planning, I have all the elements for an install and I'm shutdown right at the start . I live out in the country far away from setbacks and neighbors.
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  • jcgee88
    jcgee88 Solar Expert Posts: 154 ✭✭
    #6
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system
    kodioneill wrote: »
    My local government just denied my PV design. Their position, it's a business ( because you're selling power back to the grid) in a residential zoned area.

    You didn't say what capacity your planned PV system was, nor
    did you mention what your annual consumption is.

    However, if your annual consumption is greater than your
    projected capacity (using PV-Watts), then you could show them
    the numbers which would show you as a net consumer, and
    not a seller.

    Can you tell us your current consumption, and your planned
    PV capacity, both in kwH/year?

    John
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  • kodioneill
    kodioneill Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #7
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system
    jcgee88 wrote: »
    You didn't say what capacity your planned PV system was, nor
    did you mention what your annual consumption is.

    However, if your annual consumption is greater than your
    projected capacity (using PV-Watts), then you could show them
    the numbers which would show you as a net consumer, and
    not a seller.

    Can you tell us your current consumption, and your planned
    PV capacity, both in kwH/year?

    John

    Usage is almost at parody with production. 7kw
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  • kodioneill
    kodioneill Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #8
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system
    bmet wrote: »
    Are you trying to do this with home-made panels?
    No, the system is to be Solar Edge with Sharp panels.
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  • kodioneill
    kodioneill Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #9
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system
    rollandelliott wrote: »
    where do you live? a letter to your city council would be the first step. state senator/house of rep would be next.

    There might be a law that protects you from this BS.

    Up state NY near Saratoga. No neighbors out in the country.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system

    Perhaps it's governments latest way of raising more money, change homeowners with "free" electricity over to commercial with it's far higher tax rate, then sock it to them. Solar power is as good an excuse as any.
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  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    #11
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system

    http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=NY01R&re=1&ee=1

    this web site is pretty much worthless,

    the easiest thing would be to go to town meeting and request your home be rezoned residential/commercial.

    Peace, Rolland
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system
    rollandelliott wrote: »
    the easiest thing would be to go to town meeting and request your home be rezoned residential/commercial.

    I would suggest you find out first what difference it would make to your property taxes. Have no idea how things work where you live, but here the commercial rate is at least 3 times that of residential, and in some locations a lot more than that. :cry:
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system

    Have you talked to anyone from your power supplyer? That was my first step in Pa. They sent me info on what they required and a link to the public utility commission for PA. I think your state should have a public utility commission. All the laws are spelled out there. :Dsolarvic:D http://www.powernaturally.org/about/library.asp Here is a link I found for your state of NY that has a lot of info you might read up on.
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  • Frxddy
    Frxddy Solar Expert Posts: 113 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system

    I agree, my first next call would be to the power company. I know a couple things..... one, the denial of solar is absurd. Two, you get more flies with honey. I feel confident that you will be allowed to have your solar, but you may need to find a way to make the town feel good about it. Calling them the idiots that they may well be is not going to help this process. You need to fluff their feathers and get them to feel all fuzzy inside when they say yes. Once the power company explains to them that the Feds require net metering (they do, don't they? I've always heard that), that it's not a net sale, it's a trade. and that solar arrays such as you have planned actually help keep rates down, perhaps they will start to get that fuzzy feeling.

    Even if it were a business, around here we are allowed "home occupations". That's another angle to look at. Unless a homeowners agreement prevents it, last I knew a town can not prevent you from earning money from your home. They can prevent you from having customers coming to your home, they can prevent signs on your property, but they can not stop you from earning a living.
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  • Sparkletron
    Sparkletron Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system

    Typically the goal is not commerce but merely to lower your utility bill. You're really just using the grid like a giant free battery, giving them power when you don't need it so you can get it back from them when you do. So long as the utility is not actually cutting you a check, I can't imagine that you'd have to report the power you "sell" to the IRS or any other taxing authority.

    Now if your goal *is* commerce and you don't actually use any grid power and the utility cuts you a check every month, well, that's another story.
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  • Sparkletron
    Sparkletron Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system
    Frxddy wrote: »
    Even if it were a business, around here we are allowed "home occupations".

    Selling tea cozies on ebay from your home is one thing, but making business-related changes to the exterior of your home would certainly fall under your local zoning authority.

    Amassing credit (for power) from your local authority is not exactly the same as having them cut you a check. But it's the sort of distinction that's lost on your average bureaucrat.
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system
    Sparkletron wrote: »
    I can't imagine that you'd have to report the power you "sell" to the IRS or any other taxing authority.

    You most certainly do if your annual production results in a profit. This is another reason why having a separate meter is problematic as your paid monthly for the revenue.

    I would wonder if the OP is true net metering or dual meters, the later I could see where the zoning might classify that as a commercial enterprise. Unforunanlty, I don't see this as being a simple issue to resolve.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system

    Hummm, wonder how long before the "income" from grid-tie will need to be included with our income tax returns - - -
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system
    waynefromnscanada wrote: »
    Hummm, wonder how long before the "income" from grid-tie will need to be included with our income tax returns - - -

    As soon as the utility provides a 1099 form for us in the US.
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  • Jburgess
    Jburgess Solar Expert Posts: 130 ✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system

    SRP requires a W-9 for the rebate. Is that close enough?
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  • Sparkletron
    Sparkletron Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system
    Solar Guppy wrote: »
    You most certainly do if your annual production results in a profit.

    Actually, the IRS will be wanting the taxes on that profit in quarterly installments.

    Define profit. I once paid a bill twice, resulting in credit. But power chits are not exactly legal currency. Hey! Solar power could be a great way to launder money! Simply convert ill-gotten gains to power and sell it to the utility for credit. Now we just have to work out how to convert that credit back into cash...
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system
    Jburgess wrote: »
    SRP requires a W-9 for the rebate. Is that close enough?

    Yep nice that APS didn't! If they bother to issue one on the credit at year end so be it.

    At least you could then claim the full 30% off the Feds, not just the difference between the price and rebate. Would have worked out to be a push pretty much for me.
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  • Seven
    Seven Solar Expert Posts: 292 ✭✭
    #23
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system

    I would really like to see a copy of the denial. The actual text used in the wording. It is alot easier to overcome an objection like that by taking apart the body of the message and solving the parts individual of each other. Many times the actual wording is the easy part. If all that is stated is the business part, have them define business. No customers, no income, no employees, and no tangible product usually rules out a business.
    Redefine "sell to grid" as "reduce consumption due to offset production value" in your request.
    Be very specific in your wording also.
    If you still have trouble, there are other ways to get it approved. One thing you must remember is that you must stay at least emotion free. Happy is better. The second you become an a$$, it is over. You can follow process and talk to board members individually in some cases. There should always be an appeal process, or a higher level of decision makers. Again, you can't anger anyone in the process. Saying "I'll go over your head" is not the best approach. Politely asking about the appeal process goes over much better. If they deny an appeal without merit, then there are some stronger steps you can take.

    No matter how big a pain it is, you must follow their process structure. Stay calm and professional.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #24
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system
    Seven wrote: »
    I would really like to see a copy of the denial. The actual text used in the wording. It is alot easier to overcome an objection like that by taking apart the body of the message and solving the parts individual of each other. Many times the actual wording is the easy part. If all that is stated is the business part, have them define business. No customers, no income, no employees, and no tangible product usually rules out a business.
    Redefine "sell to grid" as "reduce consumption due to offset production value" in your request.
    Be very specific in your wording also.
    If you still have trouble, there are other ways to get it approved. One thing you must remember is that you must stay at least emotion free. Happy is better. The second you become an a$$, it is over. You can follow process and talk to board members individually in some cases. There should always be an appeal process, or a higher level of decision makers. Again, you can't anger anyone in the process. Saying "I'll go over your head" is not the best approach. Politely asking about the appeal process goes over much better. If they deny an appeal without merit, then there are some stronger steps you can take.

    No matter how big a pain it is, you must follow their process structure. Stay calm and professional.

    Of course, what you may be up against is a prejudice against PV and the denial for it being a business just the excuse. Some folks just don't like the way it looks, or there may be a political agenda involved.
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  • Seven
    Seven Solar Expert Posts: 292 ✭✭
    #25
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system

    That is why the actual wording is so important to his cause. If he corrects it as to the letter of denial and they deny again on other grounds, you can get into the realm of denial with prejudice. I think that is the proper term. Basically if they don't allow the install and keep changing the reason, they open themselves up for a complaint that actually gets reviewed at a higher level. It isn't worth the hassle on their part and they know it.
    There are always other methods, but in this forum I will assume they are just misinformed on their decision.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #26
    Re: Local Zoning denied PV system
    Seven wrote: »
    That is why the actual wording is so important to his cause. If he corrects it as to the letter of denial and they deny again on other grounds, you can get into the realm of denial with prejudice. I think that is the proper term. Basically if they don't allow the install and keep changing the reason, they open themselves up for a complaint that actually gets reviewed at a higher level. It isn't worth the hassle on their part and they know it.
    There are always other methods, but in this forum I will assume they are just misinformed on their decision.
    And of course I also agree with you that it is important to keep all discourse civil in all senses of the word. Once it gets personal you have lost the war whether you win or lose the battle. If only our Congressmen and Senators would realize that... (humor, not politics)
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