Xw Xantrex 4024

KefalonianmanKefalonianman Solar Expert Posts: 60 ✭✭✭✭
HELP NEEDED !!

My system is as follows

Xw xantrex 4024
xantrex control panel
2 * wind turbines
4 * solar panels
2 * charge controllers
8 * trojan 6v 230 amp/h batteries

i am new to this so sorry if i sound a bit stupid, i want to program my system for the following

primary power to load comes from wind and solar
secondary power to load comes from grid when wind and solar are not present or not enough ittops up.

my batteries i want to keep for emergencies (grid failure)

is this possible with my inverter and how do i setup, at the moment my system costantly charges the batteries from grid and only inverts solar / wind when i disconnect from the grid via the circuit breaker.

I have included a picture off my installation

any help would be appreciated.

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,608 admin
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Paul,

    Welcome to the Forum.

    Looking at your picture (beautiful location), you appear to have shadows from your wind turbine towers going across your solar array. In general, that is a huge problem with solar PV panels--It can really kill the output of the array (50% or more loss in output--depending on size of shadows, where they fall on the array, how the panels are wired, what type of charge controller you are using, etc.).

    You need to have the panels clear of any shading from 9am to 3pm (at least/ideally).

    First, depending on your total charging sources and surge current on the inverter--the 546 AH 24 volt battery bank is bit on the small side... If you are looking at running the inverter to 4kW (8kW surge)l, you should be looking at a minimum of 800 AH @ 24 volt battery bank. One possible error is a F49 bank over voltage error (If your wind turbines are in the 4kW+ size range--it is possible their variable output energy can cause an F49 fault too with a smaller battery bank--my guess):

    Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

    And here is a thread that may help you with programming the XW:

    Grid support Xantrex XW4024 Help

    The fact you do not want to sell back to the grid probably makes thinks a bit more complex programming the XW--You only want to support your loads if the batteries are > Sell Voltage (around 26-27 volts -- basically "float charging voltage), but Sell is turned off if you do not sell back to the grid (we get a lot of requests for setups like that here--I guess many people cannot or will not get utility approval for pure Grid Tie Net Metering).

    I am not sure the XW is capable of supporting local loads without discharging the battery bank (instead of only supporting when >26.5 volts). Good question for your thread.

    And do you have the loads on the AC Out of the XW hybrid inverter?

    Lastly, you may try running with the internal XW charger disabled and see if that helps.

    Although--guessing here that you do not have very much in the way of solar panels--for your battery bank, we would like to see ~5-13% rate of charge (assuming you want to run mostly from solar):
    • 546 AH * 28.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 derating * 0.05 = 1,010 watts minimum of solar panels
    • 546 AH * 28.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 derating * 0.13 = 2,627 watts rough cost effective maximum solar array
    I am not a big fan of small wind systems... Are you getting much in the way of charging energy from your wind turbines? For the most part, I would size your system first assuming no wind turbines (solar, gt, etc.)--and then see how the wind turbines perform for you (wind is usually much less consistent than solar PV for most people).

    From looking at your pictures--I would remove the wind turbines (do they produce much power?) and the railings (and/or move the panels farther up the roof aways from shading)--and add more solar panels.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • KefalonianmanKefalonianman Solar Expert Posts: 60 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    BB

    Many thanks for your quick reply, i will try and answer the questions as best i can as only learning about it at this stage,

    the turbines are only 700w and they are there mainly for winter as wind is very very good in my area, the shading does occur for about 2 hours a day but i will move the panels and i am looking at buying more once i get the system to do what i want it to.

    the total system is only 2.8 kw but 4kw inverter and i want to increase the solar t o the 4kw limit, i have had the f49 fault when i first tested the system, but switched it down since as did not want to damage my batteries by overcharging and not used the system until i go to the villa next week where i want to do more testing.

    how do i solve the battery problem, i am on a greek island and the batteries i bought were very hard to source and very expensive, can i add to the batteries or should i bin them and start again (expensive option)

    I would sell back but the greek gov has stopped this at the moment due to climate and too much interest hopefully when they re start it i shall apply for this.

    i will check my firmware on the xantrex when i go next week and also try disabling the charger and see what it does.

    do you know if the inverter allows you to draw of grid and use solar / wind at the same time.

    also sorry to be a bit thick but can you explain this more

    "discharging the battery bank (instead of only supporting when >26.5 volts)"


    many thanks for your answers and i shall keep looking to try and improve and get my system working how it should.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Kefalonianman,
    i was giving this a bit of thought and as it is you can't have it to allow the usage of the batteries without the utility topping them off or the utility totally disconnected. you want to rely on renewable sources and if they aren't enough to have the ac connect to top up the batteries. this is using the utility as backup to an re primary source. the good news is you can use the internal relay to good advantage, but it would be necessary to have another relay to activate the ac and it must be rated at the full power that you intend to send into the inverter. what i'm thinking is to have a break in the ac lines to the inverter to prevent the internal charger from activating too soon and a low voltage connect for a relay placed at that break that is driven by the internal relay of the xw. that voltage point to activate the internal charger and supplemental ac from the utility as your re sources aren't quite up to it at that point is adjustable from the xw. i see no other way other than this for what you propose to do as you want to keep the full battery settings on the charger, but you don't want it activated until the battery goes too low from the temporary lack of re power. does this make sense to you?

    in addition to the shading problems to the pvs, you have a different kind of a shading problem as 1 turbine can be in the wake of the other at times causing the 2nd turbine to not produce much if anything at all. i guess you may be somewhat stuck with that if you haven't any other place farther away to properly mount the 2nd turbine. you have to watch where it's mounted too as it not only needs good support from below, but vibrations can be sent down to the structure below. if those vibrations don't damage something then they can be annoying.
  • KefalonianmanKefalonianman Solar Expert Posts: 60 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    niel

    many thansk for your answers, i am sorry to be a pain but is it possible to email me a simple circuit diagram i can pass to my electrian in greece to descibe what you are suggesting.

    also once rewired to this confirguration do you know how i should setup the inverter to acheive the best results.

    The tubines seem to spin excellant all day both at the same pace as the wind tends to travel down the valley and when blowing off shore up the valley its even better, the shading on the panels is something i didnt think about and i do want to install more. If the shade passes over the pv's during the day as th sun moves can it damage the panels.

    the turbines are mounted on large thick rubber mats to help with vibration.

    any furtehr help i would appreciate.

    paul
    ...its a big learning curve.....
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,608 admin
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024
    the turbines are only 700w and they are there mainly for winter as wind is very very good in my area, the shading does occur for about 2 hours a day but i will move the panels and i am looking at buying more once i get the system to do what i want it to.
    There are trade-offs for everything. :cry:

    I would measure the power output from the turbines (amp*Hours or Watt*hours) and see if they are producing any useful power--many times, they do not.
    the total system is only 2.8 kw but 4kw inverter and i want to increase the solar t o the 4kw limit, i have had the f49 fault when i first tested the system, but switched it down since as did not want to damage my batteries by overcharging and not used the system until i go to the villa next week where i want to do more testing.

    Others here can give you more information on the F49 fault. I am just reading their answers here. With your small array and wind turbines--It would seem strange you are getting F49 faults. Turning off the Inverter's battery charger was one suggestion... Another would be to look at reprogramming the maximum charging current to less current... 10%-25% of Battery AH rating is enough (note, I think the XW programs maximum charging current based on AC input current--not battery output current--so all your calculations are at ~230 VAC, not 48-58 VDC).
    how do i solve the battery problem, i am on a greek island and the batteries i bought were very hard to source and very expensive, can i add to the batteries or should i bin them and start again (expensive option)
    I would look at "fixing" the problem via programming and other debugging.

    If your AC loads are not too large, the battery bank is OK for ~2.6 kW of loads and array/charging power (4.2 kW surge for well pump, etc.).
    I would sell back but the greek gov has stopped this at the moment due to climate and too much interest hopefully when they re start it i shall apply for this.
    Yes--Grid Tied with Net Metering is very good for the customer--not so much for the power utility (I know that Greece is going through some massive government spending/taxing/borrowing issues right now--and we in the US/California is not far behind--very scary).
    do you know if the inverter allows you to draw of grid and use solar / wind at the same time.
    I will let others here answer the details of that question--I would just be guessing (I am interested in hearing the answer too).
    also sorry to be a bit thick but can you explain this more

    "discharging the battery bank (instead of only supporting when >26.5 volts)"
    You want your Panels + Turbines to supply useful energy without discharging the battery bank very deeply.

    A pure Grid Tied operation, the inverter only supplies any energy >~26.5 going into your battery bank (technically, this is called a "shunt" type charge controller, it takes current away from the battery bank to keep the bank at "Float" voltage/state of charge). The GT inverter sends the "excess" charging energy to the grid.

    I guess--the question for you is--Are you trying to "time shift" your loads (i.e., Time of Use metering... Avoid using power from Noon to 9pm because electric power is 3x as expensive as off-peak power?

    Or are the batteries more for emergency/backup power if the utility power goes out?

    The problem with what you are asking for (I am guessing) is that cycling the batteries (discharge at night, recharge during the day) does "wear out" the batteries over time and adds to your costs (replacing the batteries every 5-8 years--or more if using "expensive" batteries).

    Trying to time shift your energy usage can be very expensive (cost of battery replacement) and may not make sense--That is why grid tied solar + net metering (if it was allowed) is so great--no battery wear.

    If you are planning for rotating power failures--then let the system operate like a giant UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply) and the solar+wind can support longer power outages.

    Best of Luck,
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,608 admin
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Paul, you can also post smaller pictures and scans to the forum directly. Look at the "paper clip" above the edit window.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • KefalonianmanKefalonianman Solar Expert Posts: 60 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Bill

    I will check the turbines out next week and get back to you with their outputs.

    The property is only used during summer months and i use 8000 units per year and electric is explensive out their my aim is to reduce this and cut costs.

    I do have a pool which is 3 phase and not wired through the system but i do want to look at fitting more economical dc pump in the future and connecting into the system once more solar panels are working.

    i do want to keep my battery drain to a minmium to save life span so i thought using as a backup source would be better and use the wind / solar for daily electric, we are only talking fridge, tv, lights, so i believe without the pool i am using around 17 kw a day when in the building less when no one there.

    i am using charge controllers from a firm called wind energy 7 based in usa.

    the xw xantrex inverter has not been programmed its straight out of the box so i think once i connect the control panel to it there will be some more answers.

    does this sound feasible that the factory settings are no good for my setup

    paul
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,608 admin
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024
    I will check the turbines out next week and get back to you with their outputs.
    You can either install shunts + meter to measure the current:

    wind-sun_2155_28358752Deltec 100 amp, 100 millivolt current shunt

    Or use a DC Current Clamp Meter (like this Extech model from Sears for $60).

    Really, you need an Amp*Hour or Watt*Hour meter for use with each turbine to monitor its output (I am not sure what would be available in your region).

    One other question--do you have lightning strikes in your area? Wind turbines on tall towers attract strikes and can be very difficult to make them survive a direct lightning strike.
    The property is only used during summer months and i use 8000 units per year and electric is expensive out their my aim is to reduce this and cut costs.
    Grid Tied solar (no batteries) can come close to saving money.

    Hybrid and Off-Grid solar rarely saves money... More often, it is there for emergency/backup power (or in areas where there is no utility power available).
    I do have a pool which is 3 phase and not wired through the system but i do want to look at fitting more economical dc pump in the future and connecting into the system once more solar panels are working.

    Look for solar thermal panels for heating the pool (if you do not have those already--and need heating for your area). They are a good investment.

    For your pool motor--Look for VFD (Variable Frequency Drive)... Ideal for use with pool pumps. VFD's basically change the output frequency so you can slow the pump down or speed it up based on your needs. Much better than a "true" DC pump setup (brushed motors do not last long, and other motors use a form of VFD for their front end electronics anyway). There are PM (permanent magnet) AC motors that, with a VFD, can save more money too. Induction motors (typical AC motors used the world over) are less efficient (but also less costly).

    Here is one thread where VFD and pool pumps are discussed. Lots of opinions.
    i do want to keep my battery drain to a minimum to save life span so i thought using as a backup source would be better and use the wind / solar for daily electric, we are only talking fridge, tv, lights, so i believe without the pool i am using around 17 kw a day when in the building less when no one there.
    I assume you mean 17kWatt*Hours per day... From the above thread, it appears that many pool designers put way to large of pumps on pools (and waste lots of energy). Switching to a smaller pump (that still moves enough water) and using a two speed motor (is there a 3 phase two speed motor available?) could save lots of money. (I do not have a pool--just from what I have read).
    i am using charge controllers from a firm called wind energy 7 based in usa.

    I don't know anything about their products... One thing with Wind Turbines is they typically use "Shunt" controllers for battery banks. You have to make sure that the wind turbine "shunt" controller does not drain power from the battery bank while your other charge controllers should be charging (hybrid inverter AC charging, solar charging, etc.). I would expect you want your wind turbine shunt controller to be set with a charging voltage set point higher than the other charging sources so it only turns on when absolutely needed (when turbines are outputting lots of current and you have low loads).
    the xw xantrex inverter has not been programmed its straight out of the box so i think once i connect the control panel to it there will be some more answers.

    does this sound feasible that the factory settings are no good for my setup

    Lots of reading ahead for you... Sorry that it will all be in technical English. Not your native language (guessing) and some most boring + confusing stuff out there. :cry:

    I sure would not survive reading an XW manual in Greek (or any other language--I am from the US:blush:).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Kefalonianman,
    it is very simple in concept and will involve the electrician and/or you to become more familiar with the xw. the internal relay will output a voltage when it reaches the setpoint you program into it. this will drive a hefty relay that will bridge the break in the ac line going into the inverter. with a low voltage power is sent to the bigger relay which closes and sends the ac power into the inverter allowing the loads and the charger to run from the utility. i do not have an xw myself and i don't know of another setpoint for the relay to release or disengage as that higher voltage will disengage the bigger relay and the utility power.

    if you only had solar i would've recommended the programmable block as it would disengage the ac power during predetermined times that you can set and you can still do this if you wish to, but the wind power is not something that happens at predetermined times. there isn't any getting around it that your electrician is going to have to familiarize himself with the xw's capabilities for him to determine what might be best to do and what is legal to do in your country.

    bb.,
    reminding you he said selling to the grid is a no no, but getting power from it is not. many inverters allow the pass through of utility power to run appliances and charge batteries and invert in the absence of that utility power. the fact that the inverter can sell is irrelevant as he is not allowed to set it up that way at this time.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,608 admin
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    I understand, he wants power shaving or grid support of AC out using just the Solar panels and Wind Turbines.

    So, I would see a "Sell Voltage" of ~26.5 volts, and "Sell Off" (first step in confusion) because "Sell" means selling to the Utility.

    He wants (I believe) the GT to support the loads with any energy > 26.5 volts... And obviously, he does not want to back feed power trough the meter (that would be illegal currently with his utility).

    So--Can the XW Hybrid inverter be configured to support loads (i.e., keep grid power near zero until the loads exceed Solar+Wind watts)?

    Next, what charge controllers (wind and sun) does he have... Because the XW inverter is not able to act like a 100% shunt regulator... It can only support active loads, and if the loads are less than Solar+Wind Watts, and the batteries are "full"--then the voltage on the batteries will rise until:
    • Solar Panel Charge controller limits panel wattage
    • And/Or the Wind shunt type (I assume) controller kicks in to limit battery voltage from excess Wind Turbine energy.
    It looks like it could be done--but it is a bit convoluted and two other (at least) charge controllers have to be programmed correctly too... Something along the lines of:
    • XW inverter programmed for 26.5 volts "Sell". Selling to Grid off; Load shaving turned on????
    • XW charger programmed for 26.5 volts float, 28 volts Bulk/Absorb
    • Solar PV panel charge controller set for 27.5 volts float, 28 volts Bulk/Absorb
    • Wind Controller set for Bulk/Absorb at 29.5 volt
    I am sorry--I just do not know the details of a XW Hybrid inverter--The above is how I would approach the problem--but programming it in and picking the correct parammeters--I am not sure.

    I would believe you want to not drain the batteries unless grid has failed.

    And, I wonder how AC1 (Grid connection) and AC2 (generator connection) work same/different for each other... The AC2 generator support uses the inverter to supply power when the genset is being overloaded--not same as what Paul wants to do.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    the turbines can be a problem if you don't set up a diversion load for them when the batteries are full. you don't want them to free spin.

    as you can see it gets complicated. maybe somebody more familiar with the xw can chime in with some better suggestions.:confused:
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024
    niel wrote: »
    Kefalonianman,
    it is very simple in concept and will involve the electrician and/or you to become more familiar with the xw. the internal relay will output a voltage when it reaches the setpoint you program into it. this will drive a hefty relay that will bridge the break in the ac line going into the inverter. with a low voltage power is sent to the bigger relay which closes and sends the ac power into the inverter allowing the loads and the charger to run from the utility. i do not have an xw myself and i don't know of another setpoint for the relay to release or disengage as that higher voltage will disengage the bigger relay and the utility power.

    This will work but you will be generating L1, L2 under voltage faults. You cannot selectively disable specific alarms on the SCP so you will have to disable all faults and warnings to avoid being continuously annoyed by the alarm beeper.

    I have never been able to get grid draw to zero but it can get down to about 50 watts if you have things set up correctly. Load shave enabled, load shave amps = 0 grid support enabled, grid support voltage=24.5, sell disabled. When your battery voltage gets to around 28.5 volts, you should see the SCP switch from grid support mode to load shave mode and the AC1 power will drop. You need to have a big difference between battery voltage and grid support voltage to get it into load shaving mode.
    So--Can the XW Hybrid inverter be configured to support loads (i.e., keep grid power near zero until the loads exceed Solar+Wind watts)?

    If you have an XW SCC and set grid support volts to 32 then the inverter will go into what xantrex calls enhanced interactive mode. This will keep the batteries near 100% and use surplus power to support AC loads. The problem with this mode is if your AC loads are less than the RE sources can supply, then the excess power is wasted. The advantage is that if the grid goes down, you have 100% backup capacity in the bank.

    Here is a quote from the manual:

    Enhanced interactive mode This mode is suitable for Xantrex XW Systems with
    only Xantrex XW Solar Charge Controller(s) networked to Xantrex XW Series
    Inverter/Charger(s) through Xanbus. In this mode, Grid Supp Volts is set as
    the charge controller’s Bulk and Absorb voltages (for example, 32 volts on a
    24 volt system and 64 volts on a 48 volt system).
    In enhanced interactive mode the Xantrex XW Series Inverter/Charger
    automatically tracks the Xantrex XW Solar Charge Controller voltage as it
    transitions through all charge states (from bulk to absorption to float). This allows
    the Xantrex XW System to execute a full battery charge cycle while still
    converting excess DC power to AC power to support the loads or export to the
    utility grid. In doing so, the Xantrex XW Series Inverter/Charger only uses what is
    not accepted by the battery to support local loads and sell to the grid, thereby
    maximizing the use of the array. Since this mode allows the battery bank voltage
    to reach absorption levels (when PV harvest is adequate), the state of health of
    the battery is improved. The sell entry and regulation voltage level is 1 V below
    absorption and float of Xantrex XW Solar Charge Controller set points. The sell
    exit from sell is 1.5 V below absorption and float of Xantrex XW Solar Charge
    Controller set point
  • KefalonianmanKefalonianman Solar Expert Posts: 60 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Joe

    Many thanks for your thoughts, the problem being i am using third party charge controllers and not xantrex, do you think this would still work ?

    as long as i using more than i produce the setup you descirbe will just use the ac grid to top up the load and batteries will remain full (almost like a trickle charger)

    Paul
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Paul,

    The first sentence in the part of the manual dealing with this states

    Enhanced interactive mode This mode is suitable for Xantrex XW Systems with
    only Xantrex XW Solar Charge Controller(s) networked to Xantrex XW Series
    Inverter/Charger(s) through Xanbus.

    So I would guess it would only work with the X SCC.

    Your best bet would be to use the charger block together with load shaving. Load shaving does not work as stated in the manual, you will never get the grid to zero watts but with load shaving you can get it as low as it gets.

    I would hesitate to use a relay to interrupt the grid to AC1 as it will log a fault every time the relay opens. There may be a way to use AC2 and fool the inverter, I guess I will have to think about it a bit.

    When I first commissioned my system I spoke to X tech support numerous times about getting the grid draw to zero. After about a dozen calls, they knew who I was and I got friendly with one guy who seemed to really know how this thing worked. He admitted to me that the SW was a disaster and that some functions did not work properly. At that time he indicated to me that some fixes were in the works. I spoke with them last week and was informed that the so called fixes were cancelled by management.

    At this time, I still maintain that the inverter hardware is top notch and well designed but somehow the firmware that runs the system got messed up and sold "as is". My take on it is that the sale of X to Schneider put a wrench into the budgets and schedules and corners got cut.

    Hopefully Schneider will realize that renewable energy is here to stay and make the secision to fix the issues with the XW system.
  • Eric LEric L Solar Expert Posts: 262 ✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024
    Load shaving does not work as stated in the manual, you will never get the grid to zero watts but with load shaving you can get it as low as it gets.

    Joe B., I've read your posts on this topic here and on the "Grid Support Xantrex 2024 Help" thread.

    I don't own a Xantrex inverter, but I'm interested. Do you mind telling me if I'm understanding you correctly? In a situation in which you have a Xantrex SCC connected via. xanbus to an XW, and the XW set to:

    - Grid support on
    - Sell off
    - Load shaving on,

    then if the batteries are full and the sun is shining on the panels, you still pull about 50 watts of grid power on AC1?

    If that's right, then is it also true that if you keep heavier (50+watt) loads on the inverter, the difference in power is supplied by the solar system, up to the inverter or the solar system's limit (whichever comes first)?

    I'm asking these questions because I'm wondering whether, even with the problem you report above, the XW series still allows you to make a mid-sized battery-backed system (grid supported but not grid-tie) function more efficiently. In other words, I'm wondering whether the problem you've found still allows you to put a heavier load on the inverter than you would with a non grid-interactive model, since the grid power will make up the difference before the batteries get stressed.
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Bill, I would like to get a clamp meter but have a couple questions I hope you can answer about whether the one,s you recomend will work for my intended use. I downloaded the manual for the extech model MA-220 and the Sears equivilent model 82369. On page 2 of extech manual it states. Do not measure current on a circuit whose voltage exceeds 240 v. I wanted to be able to measure the string voltage for my solar arrays. One GTI inverter is a 500 volt model and other is a 600 volt model. Also the sears manual has a lot more information and talks about measuring 600 v. I am not an electrician so never used one of these. If I get one I will probably get the sears model. Sears has a lot of other models too. Solarvic
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,608 admin
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    There are a ton of choices out there... I did not notice the 240 VAC above ground voltage limit (times sqrt of 2 = 339 VDC maximum).

    My guess is that would be measuring current on a bare wire/bus bar... Since normal wiring used around homes is rated for 600 VAC maximum--I would not worry on wires are fully insulated to 600 VAC.

    I cannot imagine any other reason that I would be worried about maximum voltage in the Clamp (there is a metal "C" section in the jaws--and they would be conductive and I can understand some limit (like 240 VAC above ground).

    Regarding picking a meter--if you are going to be "accurately" measuring MSW wave forms (or other non linear devices like computer power supplies)--You may want to look at True RMS reading meters.

    I see there are a few to choose from that are less than $150 on Sears.com ($300+ seems to be the next level).

    There is one poster here that is having some problems with a ~$100 True RMS clamp meter from Sears (don't know brand or model). Having some sort of problem getting DC current readings from it (still waiting comments back in PM).

    The $60 one I have been linking to seems to be working fine for me otherwise (have not measured any MSW stuff).

    About all I know--If anyone else has good or bad experiences with clamp meters--Please feel free to chime in!

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solarvicsolarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Not going to measure bare wires. So sounds like it should work for me. Thanks Solarvic
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024
    Eric L wrote: »
    Joe B., I've read your posts on this topic here and on the "Grid Support Xantrex 2024 Help" thread.

    I don't own a Xantrex inverter, but I'm interested. Do you mind telling me if I'm understanding you correctly? In a situation in which you have a Xantrex SCC connected via. xanbus to an XW, and the XW set to:

    - Grid support on
    - Sell off
    - Load shaving on,

    then if the batteries are full and the sun is shining on the panels, you still pull about 50 watts of grid power on AC1?

    Yes this is true, I have never been able to get grid draw to zero with sell turned off.
    If that's right, then is it also true that if you keep heavier (50+watt) loads on the inverter, the difference in power is supplied by the solar system, up to the inverter or the solar system's limit (whichever comes first)?

    It depends on what mode you have the system in. If you put the system into enhanced interactive mode it will keep the batteries topped off at 100% and then use excess power to support AC loads. If you keep it in fixed mode, then the grid support volts determines how much battery bank power will be used to support the loads.
    I'm asking these questions because I'm wondering whether, even with the problem you report above, the XW series still allows you to make a mid-sized battery-backed system (grid supported but not grid-tie) function more efficiently. In other words, I'm wondering whether the problem you've found still allows you to put a heavier load on the inverter than you would with a non grid-interactive model, since the grid power will make up the difference before the batteries get stressed.

    I can only tell you what I personally have found. The answer to your question is yes, the inverter will pull excess power off of the grid. The way MY system works is that given increasing AC loads, the inverter will supply about 80% of the load and the remaining 20% comes from the grid. This happens up to the max output of the inverter. Any increasing load will be supplied from the grid up to the system limit.

    If you disconnect AC1 then 100% of the power comes from the bank up to the limit of the inverter capability.

    I mostly run my system in fixed mode where the batteries cycle between about 85% and 100%, the enhanced interactive mode is better when you expect a few days of low production, you can "keep" more in the battery.

    HTH
    Joe
  • Eric LEric L Solar Expert Posts: 262 ✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Yes, that's helpful Joe, thanks. I'm assuming you aren't using the XW's battery charging function in what you describe above.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    I try to keep my batteries above 85% so if I get into a run of cloudy days, my capacity will begin to step down. I have my AC charger programmed to kick in at 80% and I use charger block to only allow it to charge in the wee hours. That way if it does go into a charge cycle, I will be pretty bulked up by the time the sun could potentially come out. Solar can then do the absorb and excess goes into a dump load that heats water.
  • KefalonianmanKefalonianman Solar Expert Posts: 60 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    hello

    i have arrived at place and put my control panel in and put some settings in,
    the control panel doe snot seem to have a adavanced option so cannot use load share, does any ne know how to get advanced setup on xantrex control panel

    the system is ticking over and i only have two solar and one turbine connected at the moment and the control panel is displaying the following see picture .

    can any tell me what the system is doing off the control panel

    any help would be appreciated

    many thanks

    paul
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Looks like your system is running with factory defaults. It is inverting and the AC is good.

    Press the down arrow button to see the other home screens.

    To get into advanced mode push the three left most buttons on the SCP simultaneously.

    Dont know what that ticking that you mentioned is.
  • KefalonianmanKefalonianman Solar Expert Posts: 60 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    hello

    i have left the system running and for the past couple of days the following was observed

    can someone tell me what they think the screens are telling, it seems to me that i have been charging my batteries of the mains for the last two days and not saving anything, also why does the inverter read 0.00

    any help please

    paul
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Paul,

    I sent you the latest manual but I can see that you have a different version of the SW (US vs EU) but the menu navigation should be the same.

    Based on your pictures, the system is in grid support mode drawing about 75 watts from the battery. The problem is your battery is way too low. You need to set up the charger properly, then set up the grid support. I suspect that your recharge volts is set too high. The way my system works is that in grid support mode, the inverter will progressively throttle back as the battery voltage drops closer to the grid support setting. You need to get the system into advanced mode and set up the charger. Then disable grid support mode and force a bulk charge to get the battery back up to capacity. Then set up grid support and enable it and you should be all set.

    With a 3.5 amp load on the battery and the voltage only at 24 volts, your bank is very depleted. Charge them ASAP!!!

    Let me know if you are able to get it into advanced mode and I will walk you through the setup numbers for the charger and the grid support.

    Also, can you tell me more about your system? Battery bank capacity, what kind of things other than the inverter is connected to the bank (charge controllers or dump loads). Once we get the XW system going we may have to look at the settings of the other devices.

    Joe
  • KefalonianmanKefalonianman Solar Expert Posts: 60 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    joe

    i have done the bulkcharge as suggested and turned grid support off, when i came down this morning the inverter is in ac bypass mode.

    before switching to grid support i wanted to make sure the final numbers are correct.

    i replied to your last message and gave you my numbers etc can younconfirm i amon the right lines.

    i have taken pictures this morning for you


    many thanks

    paul
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    OK Paul, we are making progress, I sent you another PM.
  • KefalonianmanKefalonianman Solar Expert Posts: 60 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Can any one out there shine some light on the problem I am having with xantrex 4024

    Its been working fine and we added 8 panels and an xantrex 60a mppt and when we connect the mains up the inverter constantly turns on and off when running from the batteries if no mains it runs fine

    And if I connect mains and do not invert, I can charge the batteries etc it's ok but if I start inverting it starts to switch on and off again

    I have changed the mppt to 01 as I plan to install another very soon this won't be confusing it?

    Has any one else had a fault like this any ideas where to start to look batteries were saying 27 volts so it's not as if there's no juice

    Many thanks Paul
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Disable search mode on the inverter? Learn about search mode
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • KefalonianmanKefalonianman Solar Expert Posts: 60 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Xw Xantrex 4024

    Search mode is disabled .....

    Paul
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