Perfectly legitimate post was deleted

Re: Perfectly legitimate post was deleted

Fixer,

Yes there was a discussion among us moderators about that post/thread...

The concern was it was going to be difficult to moderate.

For example, MorningStar appears to use ETL, not UL for their listing services:

Certifications
• CE Compliant
• ETL Listed (UL1741)
• cETL (CSA C22.2 No. 107.1-01)
• FCC Class B Part 15 Compliant
• Complies with (NEC) U.S. National Electric Code
• RoHS Compliant
• Manufactured in a certified ISO 9001 facility

As long as ETL is a competent body--They are equal to UL in terms of meeting the various legal and regulatory requirements.

In the US, it is OSHA that manages this list (I think--just doing some quick research here):

What requirements does OSHA have regarding NRTLs?

OSHA Safety Standards, which are US law, contain requirements for "approval" (i.e., testing and certification) of certain products by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL). These Safety Standards are found in Title 29 of the Code of Federal Regulations (29 CFR), and the provisions for NRTL certification are generally in Part 1910 (29 CFR Part 1910). See Specific References to OSHA Standards for the provisions in Part 1910. The requirements help protect workers by ensuring products are designed for safe use in the workplace. An NRTL generally certifies products for a manufacturer.

OSHA Safety Standards contain general requirements for workplace safety. Many of these requirements pertain to equipment for which OSHA does not require an NRTL certification. The only products covered under the NRTL Program are those for which OSHA regulations require certification by an NRTL. Whether or not OSHA requires NRTL certification, an employer subject to OSHA's requirements must assure it complies with the provisions of the Safety Standards applicable to its operations.
...
What is an NRTL, and what is the significance of OSHA recognition?

An NRTL is an organization that OSHA has "recognized" as meeting the legal requirements in 29 CFR 1910.7. In brief, these requirements are the capability, control programs, complete independence, and reporting and complaint handling procedures to test and certify specific types of products for workplace safety. This means, in part, that an organization must have the necessary capability both as a product safety testing laboratory and as a product certification body to receive OSHA recognition as an NRTL.

OSHA's recognition is not a government license or position, or a delegation or grant of government authority. Instead, the recognition is an acknowledgment that an organization has necessary qualifications to perform safety testing and certification of the specific products covered within its scope of recognition . As a result, OSHA can accept products "properly certified" by the NRTL. "Properly certified" generally means: 1) the product is labeled or marked with the registered certification mark of the NRTL, 2) the NRTL issues the certification for a product covered within the scope of a test standard for which OSHA has recognized it, and 3) the NRTL issues the certification from one of its sites (i.e., locations) that OSHA has recognized.

(Note: In terms of OSHA's usage, "NRTL" is not treated as an acronym but just as a group of initials. As such, the indefinite article "an" precedes these initials in singular usage.)

Normally, in most forums, moderators try to limit "arguments" over moderation because of the difficulties on both sides of the question.

-Bill

Re: Perfectly legitimate post was deleted

It has been over a decade since I have been involved with the UL/CSA/ETL/TUV xyz/etc... But the difference between UL and other NRTL's is (has been in the past) more of a customer/marketing issue and time to mark scheduling vs some sort of material difference in the end services.

Here is a quick marketing blurb from ETL on why to use them vs UL (PDF).

When concept of NRTL's first started--UL was the 600 lb gorilla in the US... Way back when, UL was even written into code (like New York Fire Code) and even though other companies (like ETL, CSA/us, and others) were legal and equal by US law, not all customers saw it that way--so we tended to use UL.

As time went on, and time to market was paramount (at least for engineering)--We had 9 month design to market cycles--and waiting 1.5 months for UL to have room in their schedule for us was not going to work. So, we started using others like CSA and TUV Rheinland as they had inspectors available on much shorter notice and approved/published much quicker than UL (at that time).

Any way--These were the issues that concerned us as moderators--Everyone loves a good Rant--but when asking some questions to get a discussion going vs some pretty bold statements, when none of us here work for any of these NRTL's, makes it difficult to both moderate and be part of the discussions.

In the end, while we understand that people will "go guerrilla" with their solar installs and many of them will work fine and never burn down a home or kill anyone--We here try to at least post the requirements, warnings, and reasons why many of us here feel this way.

However--As can be seen from many other threads, on for example building home made solar panels, we do allow the discussions to continue after the friendly warnings and attempt to help answer the questions the best we can (where to get material, types of materials to use, how to build a quick and dirty vacuum oven, etc.).

As we try to just give the warnings about safety once, we also are asking folks that want to try and go the DIY (do it yourself) route to not try and recruit others to follow their lead (build 100+ watt panels, attach to non-NRTL Listed gt inverters, wired into existing branch circuits without a licensed electrician/building department approval--as may be required, etc.)...

Just try to keep the discussions technical and not turn into jamming a stick into the eye of the "man"....

Do us moderators always agree on every action... We are four different people in two different countries. And we are as much trying to predict the future of a thread and its chance of going of the rails and causing more blow back. Do we all ways get them right--I know I am far from perfect (as my wife and kids will attest too).

It makes moderation much easier for us volunteer moderators and respects the wishes of our host, NAWS, to be open and technical... And not overtly political.

-Bill

Re: Perfectly legitimate post was deleted

Fixer,

Niel, Marc, Tony, and everyone else here spends a lot of time with no compensation when we attempt to help people by providing information on code, projects and such. And we attempt to give each person/thread equal effort in those answers--whether they are highly technical or new posters with I want to use an electric coffee maker with my 45 watt panels and 7 AH battery.

We never tell people to "use the search function" or just point them to some previous thread and say the answer are somewhere in there.

You are not the first person to comment that we always shut down DIY discussions--I will bring up this thread as an example of the discussion--and it one of the few threads that we have ever locked, mostly because there was nothing more to discuss and it was causing people frustration who keep seeing the same issue repeatedly being flogged:

Do It Yourself--Why so many negative comments?

I think what "attracted" attention:

fixer wrote: »

Man nothing but kill joy.

I say have fun, do it and learn. It's a hobby, let the guy have fun!

500W... 800W... IT'S A HOBBY!!!!

It's sad that you have to keep asking the same question over and over.

Yes, you can stack them, there is no technical reason why not. Be reasonable with the amount of things you plug into any AC circuit on one breaker, duh.
....

We don't want to minimize the hazards. We (forum members) want people to realize that there are real hazards here and understand why things are done the way they are.

There are thousands of posters and people who read this forum--and we have no idea of any particular person's level of technical knowledge. Add the fact that mixing simple components into complex systems raises issues too.

We do not try to get wrapped too tightly around the safety axle.

In the above thread, the question was about whether or not a person can add multiple GTI inverters to AC home wiring via "stacking"--The answer(s) given were both don't do it guerrilla (from a safety point of view) and that GT inverters are, by design, synced to the grid so stacking/placing multiple GT inverter on grid AC will function fine.

Just please do not minimize the safety hazards. It is actually quite difficult to design a "safe" installation with multiple sources of power (see my ~26 page rant about NEC and the DC GFI protection system--which I believe is highly unsafe both in terms of fire, shock hazard, and system integration):

Question on Square D-QO panel

But I try to not bring that up in every off-grid/GT power thread.

Solar power tends to be an Install and Forget technology (if done right). And because it is forgotten (when done right--it just provides stable power for years), when failures occur (failing panels, overheated wiring, somebody comes in later and plugs a heavy load into a "non-dedicated" solar GT circuit, etc.)--lives and property can be placed at risk.

Would have the deleted UL Thread (actually just moderated, the thread is still "here"), gone down that road--I don't know, but I could see Marc's (Cariboocoot's) concerns. But it attracted enough attention that there was concern that it may. Combine safety and difficulty moderating a forum for professional/family friendly interactions (which we strive for here), it looked like it could go down hill.

As was talked about in a few posts the last day or so, we will never have a "Cafe" forum here (Windsun, the owner/admin of this forum has always said no). They can be disruptive to the purpose of the forum (solar RE power and conservation) and difficult to moderate without ticking somebody off.

I hope that this thread can eventually "go away" and we do not need to moderate/lock... We are not trying to shut people or discussions down--just keep them friendly and informative.

Fair enough?

-Bill