CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

TenMile · July 2011

Hey all,

At our cabin, our solar system's primary use is for lighting. To conserve as much power as possible, I've been using the "Energy Saver" mode on our inverter. This mode is set via a dip switch, and puts the inverter into a standby mode when there is no power being consumed. The inverter requires a load >7w to come out of standby. With the Energy Saver function "off" the inverter continually draws about 2 Amps, and with it off, about 300mA. Given that we can go for long stretches without bright sun, I'd like to continue to use the Energy Saver mode.

For lights, we use various different power levels of CFL bulbs from a variety of manufacturers. We are finding that when a single bulb is turned on, it flashes but will not wake the inverter until a second light switch is turned on. We have a couple of strings that have 2 or more bulbs, and they will turn on just fine. Initially, I thought this was caused by the power requirement of the bulb, a few of them were 11w bulbs and I figured that was close enough to 7w that it wasn't drawing enough power to switch the inverter on. This weekend, I purchased a pair of bright 23w bulbs to test, but found they do the same thing.

I'm figuring this inability to wake the inverter must have something to do with the initial draw a CFL takes at startup. The new bulbs I've got are the "instant-on" type, but still won't wake the inverter. Are there better choices of bulbs (other than incandescent) or other options of CFL's that would work? Nothing worse than having to get up in the middle of the night to answer the call :roll: and have the bathroom feel like a disco

.

Cariboocoot · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

Hey Terry! How many cows in Cowichan?

Yes that is a trouble with CFL's. I've not tried it with LED lights, but suspect the ballast issue may come up as well.

If these are wired-in lights (as opposed to plug-in lamps) you can add a small, 5 Watt "nightlight" to the circuit or just use low-Watt incandescent for nocturnal illumination. I bet some of the guys here can suggest something less plebeian, like the right capacitor or resistor to put on the light circuit to stabilize the draw and keep the inverter triggered. Seems to me it's come up before.

RCinFLA · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

Try a high power factor CFL.

http://www.topbulb.com/find/Product_Description.asp_Q_promoid_E_118_A_intProductID_E_51117

http://www.topbulb.com/find/Product_Description.asp_Q_promoid_E_118_A_intProductID_E_49460

http://www.topbulb.com/find/Product_Description.asp_Q_promoid_E_118_A_intProductID_E_51123

BB. · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

If this is a TSW (True Sine Wave) inverter...

Hmm... A little bit off the wall and I have never heard of anyone doing it... But you could try one small "Motor Run" capacitors in parallel with the lights that are blinking. The motor run capacitor (not motor start) may use enough current to keep the inverter "awake" without actually drawing any extra/wasted "energy" from the battery bank (AC circuit math).

Otherwise you may have to add another CLF bulb or get a 4 watt night light filament bulb to stabilize the inverter loads.

Xc = 1/2piFC (Capacitive reactance) ~ R for our needs here
P = I^2 / R
R = V^2 / P = 120volts^2 / 7 watts =4,114 ohms
C = 1/2*pi*F*R = 1/(2*3.1416*60 HZ* 4,114 Ohms) = 6.4 x 10^-7 = 0.64 uF

So, the smallest Motor Run Capacitor you can get (~3uF @ 370 volts) for a 120 VAC inverter should be more than large enough to test the theory.

Should be around $2.50 to $6.00 or so...

Don't use this on a MSW inverter... Nothing good will happen and could overheat the inverter and/or capacitor.

-Bill

Cariboocoot · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

Ergh! Bill! You began with "motor run capacitors" then switched to "motor start capacitors".

Not interchangeable.

TenMile · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

BB. wrote: »

If this is a TSW (True Sine Wave) inverter...

Hmm... A little bit off the wall and I have never heard of anyone doing it... But you could try one small "Motor Run" capacitors in parallel with the lights that are blinking. The motor run capacitor (not motor start) may use enough current to keep the inverter "awake" without actually drawing any extra/wasted "energy" from the battery bank (AC circuit math).

Otherwise you may have to add another CLF bulb or get a 4 watt night light filament bulb to stabilize the inverter loads.
Xc = 1/2piFC (Capacitive reactance) ~ R for our needs here

P = I^2 / R

R = V^2 / P = 120volts^2 / 7 watts =4,114 ohms

C = 1/2*pi*F*R = 1/(2*3.1416*60 HZ* 4,114 Ohms) = 6.4 x 10^-7 = 0.64 uF

So, the smallest Motor Run Capacitor you can get (~3uF @ 370 volts) for a 120 VAC inverter should be more than large enough to test the theory.

Should be around $2.50 to $6.00 or so...

Don't use this on a MSW inverter... Nothing good will happen and could overheat the inverter and/or capacitor.

-Bill

Hmmm, interesting idea -- but a bit overly complex -- I could just purchase a second CFL or incandescent bulb for the bathroom and be done with it :roll: -- also sounds like what you're saying is that the capacitor would keep the Inverter awake -- I can accomplish that by simply turning the Power Save mode dipswitch off -- with the inverter awake, it draws about 2 Amps of power and I'm trying to avoid that as overnight thats about 10% of my useful load wasted.

I'm now scouring the web to see if I can find a local supplier of High Power Factor CFL bulbs here in Victoria.

BB. · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

The difference being the capacitor will not consume battery power.

But, I agree a second light is much easier.

-Bill

waynefromnscanada · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

My first thought on this was the relatively huge idle draw of the inverter just to run a few lights at a cabin. 2 amps when "on"? And still 300 ma when "off"? Unless you're lighting the place like the proverbial house of ill repute on a Saturday night, what's going on here? What is the total wattage of lights would you have on at any one time? What is the wattage rating of the inverter? Is this a True Sine inverter, or MSW? Do you mind providing make and model of inverter?

niel · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

wayne,
his signature says a gopower 2kw sine wave inverter.

tenmile,
in addition to the subject matter of the cfls being with difficulty in being recognized by the inverter, who is to say that the inverter isn't actually looking for even more power than they state? see if you can find a small 8-10w incandescent light bulb to try and if it doesn't activate the inverter then it takes much more to get it out of standby.

westbranch · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

Hi Ten Mile, out of interest for a supply of CFLs here in BC, I just got off the phone to GE and the best 13W CFLs have a PF of .6 or 60%, so you will need to look at a different brand I guess.. NO luck in finding much on NOMA brand. CanTire appears to be the only retail outfit coming up via Google...

AS a fall back you might want invest in a Kill-a-Watt meter and do some testing till you find a good PF bulb...

ej

waynefromnscanada · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

niel wrote: »

wayne,
his signature says a gopower 2kw sine wave inverter.

Ah, thanks Niel, missed that. No wonder it draws so much on idle. Perhaps he has lots of power to spare, but it's definitely not the way I'd go just to run a few lights. And if I had occasional heavy loads that requite a 2000 watt inverter, (which I have) then I would keep it for that purpose only, and get a far smaller less power hungry inverter just for said lights. That's why I'm using 3 inverters.) But hey, that's me. To each his or her own.

TenMile · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

My first thought on this was the relatively huge idle draw of the inverter just to run a few lights at a cabin. 2 amps when "on"? And still 300 ma when "off"? Unless you're lighting the place like the proverbial house of ill repute on a Saturday night, what's going on here? What is the total wattage of lights would you have on at any one time? What is the wattage rating of the inverter? Is this a True Sine inverter, or MSW? Do you mind providing make and model of inverter?

My system specs are in my signature. We installed a 2000W inverter to run the occasional power tool, shop vac or kitchen appliance at the cabin. It's a bit high powered for everyday use, but it's nice to have the extra power once in a while. We have a 20+ year old 1300w Honda generator but like to avoid using it as we have to haul it out to set it up and run it each time. We've got no problems keeping the batteries at full charge. Really wanted to keep the system as simple as possible -- while I could figure out how to switch between multiple inverters, my in-laws and wife would not -- in other words, I'm trying to maintain a high WAF (wife acceptance factor) for this system...

You had me thinking there might be something wrong with my inverter. I checked out the specs page on the unit here -- more specifically, when powered on it draws 2.8A and when in standby it draws .6A. For a comparison, I looked at a Xantrex ProSine 1800 and it's in the same ballpark. When powered on (no load) it draws 1.8A and 125mA when in standby. My inverter has an LED panel it needs to power and is a bit higher power -- so I think it's draw is pretty normal.

TenMile · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

westbranch wrote: »

Hi Ten Mile, out of interest for a supply of CFLs here in BC, I just got off the phone to GE and the best 13W CFLs have a PF of .6 or 60%, so you will need to look at a different brand I guess.. NO luck in finding much on NOMA brand. CanTire appears to be the only retail outfit coming up via Google...

AS a fall back you might want invest in a Kill-a-Watt meter and do some testing till you find a good PF bulb...

ej

I found these guys based in Edmon-chuck: http://www.dreamstarlights.com/ Not sure if they are retailing their light yet but looks like they have designed a 90% PF bulb.

waynefromnscanada · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

TenMile wrote: »

Really wanted to keep the system as simple as possible -- while I could figure out how to switch between multiple inverters, my in-laws and wife would not .

Just to clarify, all my lights are permanently wired to a 300 watt inverter that's always on to supply other small loads that show up from time to time. The large inverter is in "power saver mode" and dedicated to the heavy loads: Washing machine/water pump/shop tools/freezer in outbuilding etc. So no switching around and everything works seamlessly, same as if I was on grid. It's SO easy to forget that my power isn't being supplied from grid

westbranch · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

Ten Mile re dreamlights, I emailed them and they currently sell to commercial/industrial customers.

Contact Scott Middleton at scott@mrtinternational.ca for more info, $7.59 for reg models and a self dimmable for $9.07Cdn I assume.

Eric

just got this link for the dimmable, which is not High power factor http://www.dreamstarlights.com/pdf/Dreamstar_DIM_CFL.pdf

westbranch · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

found this Wikipedia statement while looking for details on degrees Kalvin to colour of the light produced...

Power quality
The introduction of CFLs may affect power quality appreciably, particularly in large-scale installations. The input stage of a CFL is a rectifier, which presents a non-linear load to the power supply and introduces harmonic distortion on the current drawn from the supply.
In such cases, CFLs with low (below 30 percent) total harmonic distortion (THD) and power factors greater than 0.9 should be used.

got me thinking about other interference with TV radio etc..

ej

TenMile · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

westbranch wrote: »

Ten Mile re dreamlights, I emailed them and they currently sell to commercial/industrial customers.

Contact Scott Middleton at scott@mrtinternational.ca for more info, $7.59 for reg models and a self dimmable for $9.07Cdn I assume.

Eric

just got this link for the dimmable, which is not High power factor http://www.dreamstarlights.com/pdf/Dreamstar_DIM_CFL.pdf

Yeah, thanks. I had emailed them as well and Scott got back to me and it sounds like they will sell directly. I explained why I need them and he indicated that he uses them for the same application. He also suggested trying a 5w LED light. I may try that option this coming weekend and see what happens.

waynefromnscanada · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

westbranch wrote: »

got me thinking about other interference with TV radio etc

The interference you mention is almost always the result of the high frequency oscillator and it's driven circuits radiating RF. The CF tube itself does not run on DC, rather high frequency AC. High frequency is used for a couple of reasons. First, it eliminates the 120Hz strobing of the light, and two, more important, frequencies over 10 KHz can increase the light output per watt, by 5% or more over identical lamps operating at 60Hz or 120Hz. Older early designs didn't use HF electronic ballasts. Instead they used the heavy, inductor type ballast. Flickered and pulsed until they finally got an arc established and lit the tube, but after that, no radio interference.

westbranch · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

Ten Mile, you may be very pleasantly surprised with the amount of 'light' you get from a 5w LED. I have a variety of MR16's in 3 and 5 W. The newer they get the more output you seem to get. Advantage of the MR6 type is its directionality, Spot or wide angle...

I am going to order a couple CFLs for the house and see how we like them before taking them to the cabin. those dimming ones are pretty attractive even though not Hi Power...

Just an after thought, the LEDs do not draw much amperage but the mix may (should) be able to get the inverter to kick in and off the standby mode. NO expert here but the driver is probably different than the type in the CFL.

HTH
EJ

BB. · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

I put in some medium powered (11-23 watt?) CFL floods that could be dimmed with a normal AC dimmer switch... You could back the power down to probably 1/4 light level (noticeable)--but it was not like dimming a filament lamp. No real change in mood (color remains the same, some lights tend to go "disco" with some dimmers down near lowest settings).

I would not spend a not of time and money on dimming CFL's if you have other options.

If you want the difference between bright work light and normal room lighting for watching TV--They are OK.

-Bill

bmet · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

westbranch wrote: »

Ten Mile, you may be very pleasantly surprised with the amount of 'light' you get from a 5w LED. I have a variety of MR16's in 3 and 5 W.
HTH
EJ

Agree 100%. I went with a 12V, 4 Watt LED bulb that uses the bi-pin configuration. What I didn't know at the time, is that is was for a 12V AC system (outdoor garden lights), so I connected to my car battery. Its almost as bright as a 20W MR16 Halogen, drawing a mere 280mA.

I accidentally wound up with a lucky combination, Low voltage AC LED that works beautifully with 12V batteries. It's only bummer is the price, but for the illumination, color (soft white), and power consumption, it's been great.

2manytoyz · July 2011

Re: CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

Same problem but I went with a different solution.

I had a small solar array, and didn't want to waste half my power gathered all day on the idle current required by my Xantrex Prosine 1800W inverter.

Next step was to put it in the PowerSave mode. Much less parasitic load. But every 2 seconds, it sends out a pulse to determine if there was a enough of a load for it to power up and start inverting. Consequently, lights would "blink" with the pulse.

I ended up putting the lights on a separate, 400W MSW inverter. I purchased a 12V remote control, and use a 40A relay in conjuction to operate the inverter AS NEEDED. No parasitic load when off.

After two years, I did finally have to replace the cheap Chinese (Ebay) relay, but the system works great otherwise. There's no flicker, hum, or noticible difference of the CFL lighting on the MSW inverter vs. being plugged into the grid. The remote kit was purchased on Amazon, came with two remote fobs. I keep one in the living room next to the lamps, another in the bedroom, allowing me to turn lights on/off from either room.

Pictures and show/tell video at this link: http://2manytoyz.com/gridless.html

CFL Bulbs and Inverter Energy Saver Mode

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