Inverter/Charge Controllers

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Fe-Wood
Fe-Wood Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭
in Solar Product Reviews & Opinions #1
I'm looking at building a small stand alone power system that has generator charging. No PV or wind power generation.

I'm considering 2500 to 3000 watt true sign wave inverter/controllers. That is all the power I will need. I've been reading about the Xantrex SW2512MC and found they have been discontinued but still available. I also stumbled across the Aims system with similar specs.

I have found the Xantrex for about $1500.00 and the Aims for about $800.00. Is the Xantex controller that much better? I would rather spend more up front if its worth it but the Aims is attractive price wise.

Any thoughts-suggestions? Is there another brand/model I should consider?
Thanks!
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    Do the chargers on either have a PF (power factor) spec ? A 2000W charger with .6 PF will need a 3200 w genset. .98 PF would need 2100w genset.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Fe-Wood
    Fe-Wood Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭
    #3
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    I have a 15 KW genset.
    The Xantrex Specs-

    Electrical Specifications
    AC input voltage 120 VAC
    AC input voltage range 80 - 149 VAC
    AC input current 60 amps
    AC pass thru 30 amps
    AC charging (Required for full pass through and full charging)
    Continuous Power @ 25°C 2500 VA
    Efficiency (Peak) 90%
    AC output voltage (RMS) 120 VAC
    AC output voltage regulation +/- 5%
    Frequency 60 Hz
    Waveform Sine wave, 34 - 52 steps per cycle
    Total harmonic distortion < 5%
    Continuous output @ 25°C 21 amps AC
    Surge capability:
    5 sec rating (resistive) 4000 watts
    1 mSec 65 amps AC
    100 mSec 46 amps AC
    Automatic transfer relay 60 amps
    DC input voltage (Nominal) 12 VDC
    DC input voltage range 11.8 - 16.5 VDC
    DC current at rated power 275 amps
    Idle consumption < 16 watts Typical at Full Voltage
    Search mode consumption < 1 watt
    Max. charge rate (adjustable) 150 amps DC at 12 V nom.

    The Aims Specs.

    Specifications:
    3000 Watt Continuous
    6000 Watt Surge
    12 Volt
    120 VAC
    11-16V operating voltage
    Efficiency - 90% at max load
    60Hz +/-.5%
    No load current power switch on - 2amps DC or 24 watts
    Low voltage protection
    High voltage protection
    Reverse polarity protection
    Short circuit protection
    Overload shut down
    Over temp shut down
    Charge current - 30amps
    Charge cutoff - 13.8VAC
    Charge input - 120VAC
    Charge output - 12VDC
    Dimensions - 21.3 x 8.3 x 4.7"
    Net weight - 28.7lbs
    Boxed - 35lbs
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    Well, that genset can power half a battleship! No PF worries there! since neither lists what the charger section PF is, it's likely just a simple, non-corrected circuit, and in the .6 - .7 range. When they design a corrected PF charger, they print it all over, PF: .98

    So, if you don't mind my asking, what are your loads, that you have such a large genset for, and what are your inverter loads ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Fe-Wood
    Fe-Wood Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    I am wanting to be able to use my computer, power lights and music without the need for the generator.

    I am a wood and metal artist/manufacturer. I use the genset to run my studio.

    I see you are a lister man! I run a ST3
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #6
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    Check if anyone services/sells parts for either of those Inverters...

    Pretty much, any Inverters (or any other electronic devices) are near unsupportable past 10 years of age (from date of product release) and you may have difficulties getting them repaired.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • PhilS
    PhilS Solar Expert Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers
    Fe-Wood wrote: »
    I'm looking at building a small stand alone power system that has generator charging. No PV or wind power generation.

    I'm considering 2500 to 3000 watt true sign wave inverter/controllers. That is all the power I will need. I've been reading about the Xantrex SW2512MC and found they have been discontinued but still available. I also stumbled across the Aims system with similar specs.

    I have found the Xantrex for about $1500.00 and the Aims for about $800.00. Is the Xantex controller that much better? I would rather spend more up front if its worth it but the Aims is attractive price wise.

    Any thoughts-suggestions? Is there another brand/model I should consider?
    Thanks!

    Hi Neighbor!

    I know nothing of the AIMS.

    I have been using an SW2512MC for over a decade with absolutely NO complaints. The "MC" (motor coach) allows some settings not available on the "plain" SW2512. Not having the "plain" one to compare with, I suspect the main differences are in the auto start area... you can direct it to NOT auto-start the generator during "RV park quiet times", for instance.

    I do not even leave "generator auto-start" enabled. Simply, I don't want the generator running when I'm not home, or asleep, or any other time IT wants to. If I want the generator to run, I do so manually.

    If the Xantrex were to die, I'd replace it with another Magnum MS2812 with remote (I already have two... our home operates on three inverters altogether).

    And we didn't have solar for many years. When the generator was on (like for the washer/dryer) it'd be charging the batteries. The rest of the time we lived on the inverters.

    Phil

    (on edit) I'm only talking about an inverter, nothing about a charge controller. That's another subject. Unless you mean the charging capabilities of the inverter.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    Another option: stand-alone battery charger (like Iota) and separate inexpensive inverter (like Samlex).

    But you do need to know how much total Wattage at once and how many Watt hours between recharges.
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #9
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    $1500 is way to much to spend on a at best 7 year old inverter that is nearly impossible to get parts or repair for
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  • Fe-Wood
    Fe-Wood Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭
    #10
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers
    PhilS wrote: »
    Hi Neighbor!

    I know nothing of the AIMS.

    I have been using an SW2512MC for over a decade with absolutely NO complaints. The "MC" (motor coach) allows some settings not available on the "plain" SW2512. Not having the "plain" one to compare with, I suspect the main differences are in the auto start area... you can direct it to NOT auto-start the generator during "RV park quiet times", for instance.

    I do not even leave "generator auto-start" enabled. Simply, I don't want the generator running when I'm not home, or asleep, or any other time IT wants to. If I want the generator to run, I do so manually.

    If the Xantrex were to die, I'd replace it with another Magnum MS2812 with remote (I already have two... our home operates on three inverters altogether).

    And we didn't have solar for many years. When the generator was on (like for the washer/dryer) it'd be charging the batteries. The rest of the time we lived on the inverters.

    Phil

    (on edit) I'm only talking about an inverter, nothing about a charge controller. That's another subject. Unless you mean the charging capabilities of the inverter.

    Hi Phil-
    Sounds like you were doing exactly what I'm looking at doing. When running my geny to power the shop, It would be charging battries. I also like the pass through capabilities. So the Magnum is the replacement for the Xantrax? Yes, I'm also asking about the charging capability of the controller.

    I'm always scepticle of products that claim to do what others for twice the money do. Turns out the AIMs is sold by a company in Reno. I'll be over there next week...Might stop in to hear the pitch. Also the Aims is not as efficiant as the Xantrex or the magnum. Actually the specs provided are very limited in specifics.:confused:

    Solar guppy-
    Thanks, In my limited research I was beginning to feel the same way. Thats why I asked you guys, here!... Always a wealth of good food for thought.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #11
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    Okay I'll play "teacher" here and point out that when we say "controller" we are usually referring to a charge controller; a device for regulating the recharging of batteries from solar panels, wind turbine, or micro-hydro generator. Not the built-in battery charger some inverters have.

    Just in case anybody reading the thread gets confused. :D

    Glossary of Terms: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=6136
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  • PhilS
    PhilS Solar Expert Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    #12
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers
    Fe-Wood wrote: »
    Hi Phil-
    Sounds like you were doing exactly what I'm looking at doing. When running my geny to power the shop, It would be charging battries. I also like the pass through capabilities. So the Magnum is the replacement for the Xantrax? Yes, I'm also asking about the charging capability of the controller.

    I'm always scepticle of products that claim to do what others for twice the money do. Turns out the AIMs is sold by a company in Reno. I'll be over there next week...Might stop in to hear the pitch. Also the Aims is not as efficiant as the Xantrex or the magnum. Actually the specs provided are very limited in specifics.:confused:

    Solar guppy-
    Thanks, In my limited research I was beginning to feel the same way. Thats why I asked you guys, here!... Always a wealth of good food for thought.

    I glanced over the AIMS specs. I didn't see where it had a "search" feature, where it'd go into a low-power idle mode until called on to supply power. That may or may not be of a concern to you. It appeared that it uses about 15 watts when no load is applied. My Magnum uses 7 watts when in search. Depending on your planned usage, that may not be significant.

    If you are shutting it off when you aren't using it, "search" wouldn't be worth much.

    They certainly have reasonable prices. You could buy a few of them for the price of one Magnum.

    I'd certainly be more comfortable buying one if NAWS carried that brand. As a supplier for all things off-grid, they seem to be VERY conscientious of the product quality for those things they offer.

    On the other hand, you are close enough to Reno that any serious problems could be resolved in person!

    Phil
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  • Fe-Wood
    Fe-Wood Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭
    #13
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    Thank you for correcting me "teacher" Yes I am referring to a inverter with battery charger and charge controller all in one unit using 110VAC as the power supply for battery charging.

    Phil-
    A very wise man once told me "the first money is the best money if it is the last money" I can't get that saying out of my mind when I look at the Aims inverter specs. It is not as efficient and the shipping weight is about half of all the other inverters I've looked at. It will be interesting to see what I find out when I go to the store....
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  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    #14
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    Greetings:

    I am a fan of AIMS. In fact, right now, I am using a 9/10 years old AIMS 5000 MSW inverter that belongs (?) to a friend. It works perfectly (Only drawback: It is msw.)You can buy one new for around $500.
    Now, I realize there are many members of this Forum that don't like them, and they know a lot more than I do. So, I am not making any recommendations here (except this one: Buy a true sine wave!), just saying my opinion and my experience. Evidently, Xantrex is more proffessional grade.

    P.S. I do strongly agree with this words of Phil: I'd certainly be more comfortable buying one if NAWS carried that brand. As a supplier for all things off-grid, they seem to be VERY conscientious of the product quality for those things they offer. But I add this: NAWS, please, just try to consider selling them!
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  • Dapdan
    Dapdan Solar Expert Posts: 330 ✭✭
    #15
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    How about you consider an offering from Apollo solar. They have a very nice pure sine wave unit (tsw3224 or tsw4048). It is split wave and output frequency selectable. It is stackable and a singe unit can do 120 only, 120/240 only and 230v only. It comes with a display that shows dc current input and power output.

    Cheers...
    Damani
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #16
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    I have been extensively researching inverter/chargers for a couple of months now.
    From all of the reviews that I have read, MagnaSine from Magnum Energy appears to be about the best. Outback also looks like a top quality brand as well, though very expensive like MagnaSine. You get what you pay for.
    Here is a review from someone about AIMS inverters:

    AIMS inverters are junk!
    I purchased a 1500W pure sine unit and it failed after just a few hours use at low load. I shipped it to the factory at my expense for a replacement (after 6 hassle-filled phone calls).
    The next one actually caught FIRE! That's not good aboard a boat! It was again under light load.
    The next one (yes, a third one!) just died after 3 *minutes* of use. The manufacturer agreed to a refund (credit back to invertersrus).
    Oh, but it's not over. Now try to get a refund from invertersrus! It took almost 3 months and many calls to get a credit.
    IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM YOU ONLY HAVE 60 DAYS TO CONTACT THE CREDIT CARD COMPANY TO DISPUTE THE CHARGE. If you are patient and try to work with the retailer (invertersrus) and the manufacturer, you will quickly run past this time and then you have NO LEVERAGE. DON'T WAIT.
    Also, the AIMS unit wouldn't power what is said it would. The Xantrex unit I now have powers high-wattage units as claimed (such as a microwave).
    MY ADVICE: BUY A XANTREX! PAY THE PREMIUM! If you go for the Aims, you will get what you pay for. If you buy from Invertersrus, dispute your charge within 60 days if you have ANY problems.

    Draw your own conclusion.

    http://www.fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,141997.html




















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    Re: Are AIMS inverters any good?
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  • Fe-Wood
    Fe-Wood Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭
    #17
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    So its coming down to a Xantex or Magnum Energy choice. This is for an off grid system that will be fed with a generator and over time PV panels and wind power.

    From Xantrex I'm considering the SW Plus 4024 line of inverters. I guess these are being phased out. The replacement is the XW4024?

    From Magnum Energy the MS4024 line of inverters.

    My specific questions have to do with ease of use, efficiency, Radio frequency disturbance for phone and radio, Split phase capability and where and tear on the batteries from the charger.

    It looks like the Magnum can run off of 240 VAC. Does that mean I can set it up for pass through voltages at the rated spec? If I can do that does that allow for Battery power to feed both legs when the generator is off? Ideally I would like to set it up to feed both legs of power for low amp use and when I have higher amp needs, I can run the generator.

    The Xantrex XW has this capability...

    Thoughts and comments greatly appreciated!
    Thanks
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #18
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    I think the Xantrex XW is FCC B rated, not sure about the others. outback may have something too, (I've forgetten if that's already been covered. I belive outback needs a transformer or 2nd inverter to get 240V split phase)


    The MS 4448PAE is unique in that you have either 115 volts AC, 230 volts AC, or 115-neutral-115 output. Basically this is a dual stacked 2200 watt sine wave inverter stacked in a single unit.

    details are thin on charger capacity
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #19
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    Outback and Xantrex are the only ones who have completely integrated systems here. Outback is an older design with a few less of the key features I might spec for a customer. Unless you like playing around with this kind of gear, an integrated system is really just doing yourself and the other people you expect to be able to operate this gear a really big favor. Good Luck!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Fe-Wood
    Fe-Wood Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭
    #20
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    Re: Inverter/Charge Controllers

    Ya, I took a look at outback. They don't offer the size I'm looking for and they don't seem to be as efficient....

    The Xantex offers more bells and whistles than I need but it reads like a great system...

    Hoping for some input on the Magnum....
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